A Divisive Event

[JojoBag]

My wife and I have been reading a book by Duane Crowther, “Inspired Prophetic Warnings,” and chapter 6 made a strong impression on me.  I’m going to quote few passages from the book.  This is long, but worth it.  Nephi talks about “a great and marvelous work” that is to take place in the latter days just prior to the Second Coming.  According to Crowther, from the context of the prophecy by Nephi, the marvelous work is not the latter-day restoration of the Church, but another divisive event.  He says that there will be a “specific situation that will cause the oppression against the saints and bring God's wrath upon the nation.”

“Nephi prophesies that some undefined event will cause men to move into two distinct factions which cause them to align themselves with either the church of the Lamb of God or with the church of the devil. This divisive event, when the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked shall he destroy, is called by an angel ‘a great and a marvelous work.’  As a result of this event, men will no longer be lukewarm ‘fence-sitters,’ but will be moved to take a definite position either for or against the Lord's people. When this situation aligns men into opposing camps of good and evil, then ‘whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations.’” (Pg. 76)

 

 

“But the context stated in the beginning of 2 Nephi 27 places the fulfillment ‘in the last days, or in the days of the Gentiles,’ when the people of America (‘this land’) and other lands ‘will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations’ This will be the era when the ‘multitude of all the nations’ will ‘fight against Mount Zion.’  The divisive event will have taken place, for the people will have ‘rejected the prophets.’   That day when the Lord will ‘do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder,’ will be the time when scorners and those who ‘watch for iniquity’ will ‘make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught.’  Certainly the ‘marvelous work’ of this passage refers to an era later than the time of the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith.” (Pg. 79)

 

 

“This future event of which Nephi speaks is different! On the basis of Nephi's prophecy in 1 Ne. 14:7, it appears that when this future ‘marvelous work’ transpires, all men will be obliged to take a stand for or against the Lord's work, and those who unite themselves with the great and abominable church will reap actual, temporal destruction! No, this is more than missionary work, in a sense the saints have known it in the past.

The nature of this event that will divide men into opposing factions is not clearly defined in the scriptures, but some clues may shed light on it. While prophesying- of the fall of the great and abominable church, Nephi warned that there will be those at that day who will ‘turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that is of no worth!’  He also taught that at that day Satan will rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.  Can this be a cryptic explanation of what will happen as men divide themselves into two opposing camps—one following the Lord and one following Lucifer?” (Pg. 81)

 

 

“Yet there appears to be obvious relationships between the ‘great and a marvelous work’ prophesied by Nephi, the time when men will ‘turn aside the just for a thing of naught,’ the Lord's ‘strange act’ and ‘strange work,’ and the time when ‘the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people.’

What issue will serve to focus adverse attention upon the church and bring intense pressure and persecution upon the saints? Is it the Negro and the priesthood? the ERA and women's rights? abortion? taxation of church properties? released time religious education? Or is it some other issue which is not yet visible? Certainly when Satan stirs men to anger, he will be able to provide them with some excuse to ‘revile against that which is good.’” (Pgs. 82-83)

 

 

So, what is this “divisive event” Crowther is talking about?  What event would divide an entire nation, along with the Latter-day Saints?  I believe it happened in June with the legalizing of same-sex marriage.  According to Alma, sexual sin is “most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost.” (Alma 39:5)  I cannot think of a single event more calculated to divide and shatter this nation and make God so angry as to want to destroy it.  The Five Cities of the Plains are a prime example.

 

I’ve read many comments from LDS posters who support homosexual marriage, my own daughter included.  This issue has firmly put people in either the camp of the Lord or Satan.  I fear for those who support it.

[Str8Shooter]

I am very selective in what I read when it comes to doctrinal issues so I have not read Duane Crowther's material.  I feel that a specific situation that will cause oppression and unleash God's wrath is this:

 

From Mosiah 29:

 

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

 27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

 

 

This is what President Packer has to say about it:

 

"It is one thing to be tolerant, even forgiving of individual conduct. It is quite another to collectively legislate and legalize to protect immoral conduct that can weaken, even destroy the family.

There is a dangerous trap when tolerance is exaggerated to protect the rights of those whose conduct endangers the family and injures the rights of the more part of the people. We are getting dangerously close to the condition described by the prophet Mosiah.”

 

He said that in 2006.

 

Hang on folks.  It's going to get really interesting, really fast from this point on.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Str8Shooter

[JojoBag]

I am very selective in what I read when it comes to doctrinal issues so I have not read Duane Crowther's material.  I feel that a specific situation that will cause oppression and unleash God's wrath is this:

 

From Mosiah 29:

 

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

 27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

 

 

This is what President Packer has to say about it:

 

"It is one thing to be tolerant, even forgiving of individual conduct. It is quite another to collectively legislate and legalize to protect immoral conduct that can weaken, even destroy the family.

There is a dangerous trap when tolerance is exaggerated to protect the rights of those whose conduct endangers the family and injures the rights of the more part of the people. We are getting dangerously close to the condition described by the prophet Mosiah.”

 

He said that in 2006.

 

Hang on folks.  It's going to get really interesting, really fast from this point on.

 

We've passed the point described by the prophet Mosiah.  I'm trying to find a quote by Brigham Young, but I misplaced it.  Basically, it said that when the Quorum of the Twelve is called to Washington to account for Church policies, it will shortly after that that the Savior will begin appearing to the Saints in Zion.  We are very close.

[thoughts]

  I believe it happened in June with the legalizing of same-sex marriage.  According to Alma, sexual sin is “most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost.” (Alma 39:5)  I cannot think of a single event more calculated to divide and shatter this nation and make God so angry as to want to destroy it.  

The reason that sexual sins are so heinous though is that they, like murder, interferer with power to create life and to extinguish it --- powers that God reserves only to Himself.    Homosexual relations cannot do that in any way.   So I'm not persuaded that prohibitions against homosexuality are about sexual sins.

[JojoBag]

The reason that sexual sins are so heinous though is that they, like murder, interferer with power to create life and to extinguish it --- powers that God reserves only to Himself.    Homosexual relations cannot do that in any way.   So I'm not persuaded that prohibitions against homosexuality are about sexual sins.

 

Actually, homosexuality does interfere with procreation.  It is impossible for homosexuals to create life between each other.  One of the major purposes of marriage (not the only) is to procreate.  Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth.  We are given that same commandment in the temple when we get our endowments.  There are untold billions of spirits waiting to come down and obtain a body and those bodies cannot be produced in a homosexual relationship.

 

Here is what Pres. Kimball had to say about it.

 

 

In this context, where stands the perversion of homosexuality? Clearly it is hostile to God's purpose in that it negates his first and great commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth." 

 

Let it therefore be clearly stated that the seriousness of the sin of homosexuality is equal to or greater than that of fornication or adultery.

Miracle of Forgiveness, Ch. 6.

 

As for sexual sin, all the modern prophets have condemned homosexuality as a sexual sin, just as they have condemned all other forms of unnatural sex (per os or per anus) no matter if you are married or not and normal sexual contact between unmarried men and women.

Edited July 19, 2015 by JojoBag

[The Folk Prophet]

So, what is this “divisive event” Crowther is talking about?  

 

Crowther is entirely and inescapably full of it.

[The Folk Prophet]

Come listen to a prophet's voice:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/04/a-marvelous-work-and-a-wonder?lang=eng

[Blackmarch]

My wife and I have been reading a book by Duane Crowther, “Inspired Prophetic Warnings,” and chapter 6 made a strong impression on me.  I’m going to quote few passages from the book.  This is long, but worth it.  Nephi talks about “a great and marvelous work” that is to take place in the latter days just prior to the Second Coming.  According to Crowther, from the context of the prophecy by Nephi, the marvelous work is not the latter-day restoration of the Church, but another divisive event.  He says that there will be a “specific situation that will cause the oppression against the saints and bring God's wrath upon the nation.”

 

So, what is this “divisive event” Crowther is talking about?  What event would divide an entire nation, along with the Latter-day Saints?  I believe it happened in June with the legalizing of same-sex marriage.  According to Alma, sexual sin is “most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost.” (Alma 39:5)  I cannot think of a single event more calculated to divide and shatter this nation and make God so angry as to want to destroy it.  The Five Cities of the Plains are a prime example.

 

I’ve read many comments from LDS posters who support homosexual marriage, my own daughter included.  This issue has firmly put people in either the camp of the Lord or Satan.  I fear for those who support it.

It is described as a great and marvelous work. this doesn't seem to be an evil connotation. The restoration of the Gospel would set many things in motion, including the dividing of men- the Book of Mormon is a test, it will seperate out those who are humble followers of God and those who are not. The mere presence of the Gospel will gather opposition to it. And i can't see too many things as being more great and marvelous than the restoration.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Blackmarch

[cdowis]

FWIW, during a temple recommend interview, the Stake President said that the biggest reason people are not renewing their recommend is not over tithing, but because they cannot support the leaders of the church as prophets.

 

During a recent General Conference, someone shouted out "No' during the sustaining vote. 

 

The division has begun.  This division will start from within the church itself.

Edited July 22, 2015 by cdowis

[Palerider]

FWIW, during a temple recommend interview, the Stake President said that the biggest reason people are not renewing their recommend is not over tithing, but because they cannot support the leaders of the church as prophets.

 

During a recent General Conference, someone shouted out "No' during the sustaining vote. 

 

The division has begun.  This division will start from within the church itself.

The end of time is coming .....keeps getting closer.

[theSQUIDSTER]

Come listen to a prophet's voice:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/04/a-marvelous-work-and-a-wonder?lang=eng

I agree with TFP (and words of Pres. Benson) and would also like to add this:

The restoration is ongoing. Pres. Uchtdorf talked about this in our most recent General Conference. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/are-you-sleeping-through-the-restoration?lang=eng

I'm not comfortable with the interpretation that the Lord's marvelous work is some single divisive event by itself. It surely appears as though we could be heading toward something of that nature.. But the marvelous work I see is all of the positive change being brought about by an ONGOING restoration .. The marvelous work is probably seen by many in the world as a "strange" work because people shrouded in darkness find it difficult to comprehend light. Whether they rail against one or more aspects of the light.. THAT is division.. and, IMHO *also* ongoing.

Edited July 27, 2015 by theSQUIDSTER

[thoughts]

As for sexual sin, all the modern prophets have condemned homosexuality as a sexual sin,

Not true, within this year and for several years now, the church has taught that homosexuality is NOT sinful.   It is only acting on it, performing sexual acts that is sinful.

[estradling75]

Not true, within this year and for several years now, the church has taught that homosexuality is NOT sinful.   It is only acting on it, performing sexual acts that is sinful.

 

Because they've refined the definition to differentiate between the act and the temptation.  Homosexual acts have always been a sin.   Being tempted by the desire is treated like the temptation to engage in any sin...   The church has has to get more detailed because in the last several years now society has decided that a person is irrevocably defined by their temptations, and that it must be recognized as a fundamental part of who a person is. 

[The Folk Prophet]

 It is only acting on it, performing sexual acts that is sinful.

 

The bolded above is by far and a long, long shot from what the meaning of "acting" on something actually means.

 

Edit: I should clarify. Clearly that counts as acting on it -- lest anyone (I can't see how they would, but...) mistake my meaning as an effort to say the bolded isn't acting on it. What I mean is, there is a whole world of "acting on it" prior to actually performing sexual acts that darned-tootin' counts as sin.

Edited July 28, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

It is my opinion that Duane Crowther and JojoBag are onto something but that by so encapsulating a "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" open themselves to unwarranted criticism.   Often in scripture and other revelation there is an element that is called parallelism.  In essence this means that a scripture, prophetic reference or any of the other means of revelation has more than one meaning or thing to which it may references.   Some examples are terms like "Gentiles", Stranger", "Babylon", "Passover", "Last Days", and "Eleventh Hour".  Certainly a "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" references many things - some of which took place during the life of Joseph Smith, some at the time of the Pioneers crossing the plains and some of which are taking place today.

 

Since my youth I have heard warnings of a coming time of great apostasy in the Church but for the most part I have not seen such apostasy but rather great growth.   I have often pondered what could cause many to leave the Church in mass.  During the times of persecution (even the extermination order) when many left the Church there were still many more joining.  Even during the days of abuse of polygamy - the Church continued to grow.  I was personally told by an Apostle that there would come a time that 40% or less would remain with the Church.

 

What could Satan bring forth to cause such apostasy?  Could it be the issues involved with same sex attraction?   I have thought such an apostasy would be more associated with great wealth - mostly because of the Book of Mormon and the materialism of the Nephits. However, I do recall a personal conversation with Hugh Nibley and the connections between homosexual acts and secret combinations - that in essence such acts were among the initiation rights required by Satan to join and enjoy the full effects and benefits of his organizational hierarchy. 

 

I have long been concerned with those that think and say such things are because there is no choice in such matters by those so engaged.  The idea that humans have no choice in determining their behavioral actions - especially towards others is very troublesome to me.  Even the claim to be born to cognitively behave in any certain way is counter to my beliefs and understanding of individual will and mastery of self.  Indeed the world is upside down and backwards with current trends and uses of laws which evolved to protect future generations.

 

I do not know what the next 10 to 20 years will bring but if the changes continue to escalate as they have over the last 10 to 20 years - living in such an era would be interesting - certainly this is not a boring time.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

 Even during the days of abuse of polygamy 

 

What in the name of Fats Waller are you talking about?

Edited July 28, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

What in the name of Fats Waller are you talking about?

 

I am talking about those that use polygamy as a means to commit adultery going beyond wives appointed by covenant and commandment as pointed out by Jacob in the Book of Mormon.

[Vort]

I am talking about those that use polygamy as a means to commit adultery going beyond wives appointed by covenant and commandment as pointed out by Jacob in the Book of Mormon.

 

Not sure I understand what you're driving at. At the time polygamy was allowed, all men who followed the appropriate steps to marry another woman were justified in their polygamy. Are you suggesting that some were not -- perhaps that some men were motivated to marry other women by their lust, and were therefore adulterous? If so, do you also believe that any young man who is motivated by lust to marry his girlfriend is equally an adulterer? Or have I simply misunderstood your point?

[The Folk Prophet]

What Vort asks is my same question. When polygamy is authorized one cannot commit adultery by entering therein through the proper channels. See D&C 132:61-62.

 

Are we misunderstanding you Traveler?

[Traveler]

Let us take a little scriptural journey and consider Jacob 2:31-35

 

 

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

 33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

 34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

 35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

 

I will leave it up to the readers to understand why Jacob makes reference to "husbands" that commit whoredoms with their wives.  I would also point out that this warning was not to the wicked and corrupt Lamanites - but to the Nephites that had and were following a Prophet.

 

It is my general understanding that when a covenant and law is taken away -- that it is not because of political correctness or or social pressure -- or even because a "few" are abusing or misusing the covenant and law (as when Moses initially returned with a covenant and law from mount Sinai).  It is basically because things have gotten out of hand and that G-d must step in and make a significant change to humble the people.

[Traveler]

Another thought - I believe that Jesus indicated that if a marriage ends in divorce but not for just cause and marry again that the second marriage is in essence adultery?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I agree with TFP, this author sounds full of it. But not everything you've quoted is junk.

It's pretty clear that the Lord will "cleanse" or "purify" His people. Sorting the wheat and the tares yadda yadda. This may or may not be what Nephi was prophesying, but really that doesn't make a lick of difference.

 

What bothers me is why that author thinks this is limited to a single defining event? More likely it will be a series of events over a long period of time. Gathering the wheat into the barn takes time, especially when you've got to pull tares out of the mix.

 

I will submit Prop 8 in California as one example - it definitely had that effect, where those who were not fully converted to the Gospel became offended and left. There will be many such things to come. Many ways that the teachings of the Apostles will not sit comfortably with many of the Saints (and that may include the "decline of declaring repentance"). The same could be said for both Official Declarations, both of which saw their share of dissidents refusing to accept them.

[mdfxdb]

Crowther is entirely and inescapably full of it.

This +1