What If...? OD #3

[Guest]

I’ve seen this brought up in other LDS forums.  A quick search on this forum revealed nothing.  So I believe I’m not repeating an old thread.

 

I want to stay away from the likelihood or validity of these “what ifs”.  This is just hypothetical anyway. 

 

Please weigh in on any or all of the following ideas.  What would be YOUR REACTION if OD#3 were announced as:

 

Possibility #1: Repeal of OD#1.

Possibility #2: Women will now receive the priesthood and may be given any priesthood office such as Bishop, Seventy, or Apostle.

Possibliity #3: Gay marriage is now ordained of God.

Possibility #4: (within the current social & political environment) The Lord has authorized the Prophet to exercise earthly political power and to ignore earthly governments as we now know them.  All members are to take up arms in defense of the new Kingdom of God, or the Nation of Deseret.  Policies and procedures for the political arm of the Church will be distributed soon.

[unixknight]

What is OD?

[estradling75]

What is OD?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od?lang=eng

[Guest]

Why?

 

Right now, the Spirit is going to teach me what direction we have right now, and encourage me to feel good about that. Needless speculation about those other things just feels, for lack of a better word, gross, and it should. 

[Guest]

(And before anyone pounces, I'm not declaring any of those things specifically gross, per se. . . just the feeling of trying to wrap my mind around something that has been declared as contrary to God's will makes me feel gross.)

[unixknight]

Thanks, estradling.

[Just_A_Guy]

Just as an exercise into the intellectual (as opposed to spiritual) thought processes that would be going on in my head:

 

Possibility #1: Repeal of OD#1.

 

Meh.  As a church, we've been there before; and most of us have always figured polygamy as an institution would exist in the eternities and through the millennium.  No problem so long as I'm not asked to live it.  If I were asked to live it the problem would come because of family-specific tensions and history, not because I thought the institution was objectively wrong.

 

Possibility #2: Women will now receive the priesthood and may be given any priesthood office such as Bishop, Seventy, or Apostle.

 

I think this would have to come with a re-definition of gender roles, family structure, temple rites, and fundamental views of what exaltation looks like.  I could swallow it, but it would take some time and I'd have a lot of questions.

 

Possibliity #3: Gay marriage is now ordained of God.

 

Major issue for me, because the Church has so deeply and permanently entrenched itself into the opposite position.  It would call into question everything I think I know about the reliability of the LDS leadership as prophets of God.

 

Possibility #4: (within the current social & political environment) The Lord has authorized the Prophet to exercise earthly political power and to ignore earthly governments as we now know them.  All members are to take up arms in defense of the new Kingdom of God, or the Nation of Deseret.  Policies and procedures for the political arm of the Church will be distributed soon.

 

Intellectually (not spiritually), I could reconcile myself to it conceptually.  But it would take a major, major wrestle before God for me to be willing to embrace and act on a policy like that.

[Guest]

Why?

 

Right now, the Spirit is going to teach me what direction we have right now, and encourage me to feel good about that. Needless speculation about those other things just feels, for lack of a better word, gross, and it should. 

 

That's actually a pretty good response.

[MrShorty]

As pure hypotheticals, they are interesting. I find that hypothetical responses can be interesting, but I would not want anyone to hold me to them, because it could feel a lot different when it is not a hypothetical. My hypothetical response to these hypothetical scenarios:

 

1) Repeal OD #1: I'm with JAG, probably not a big deal because, as he noted, we have been there before. Presumably, this would follow the legalization of polygamy rather than anticipate it. I would be interested to see if it would be limited to polygyny the way it was under Brigham Young through Wilford Woodruff, or if it would be opened up to other forms of polyamory.

 

2) Extend Priesthood to women: I don't think it would bother me, and I don't think it would necessitate a complete rethink in terms of gender roles. I'm sure there would be some "growing pains", but I would not expect a difficult thing here.

 

3) Gay marriage is now ordained of God: This would probably be the most difficult, for the same reason that JAG mentioned: reconciling the prophetic calling of those issuing hypothetical OD#3 with those who currently declare that homosexual behavior and marriage are diametrically opposed to our view of family and sexuality. It would seem like too much of a change to reconcile as simply "new revelation".

 

4) This seems the most hypothetical of the group. I would not necessarily have a problem with it, but I see many "challenges" to overcome. What would the political boundaries of this new theocracy be? How many would need to relocate (would I need to relocate)? Would we need to extradite non-members? Assuming our physical territory is somewhere in the US, how would we handle the secession issues? Something like a referendum like Quebec does every few decades to decide if they will secede from Canada or not? Ore would we be looking for the sudden appearance of a large land mass in the ocean, and claim it before other nations can claim it? And I'm sure there are other issues, because I am not well versed in the logistics of nation building.

[zil]

What would be YOUR REACTION if ..

Pray.

[Crypto]

Possibility #1: Repeal of OD#1.

    Meh. Doesn't bother me.

Possibility #2: Women will now receive the priesthood and may be given any priesthood office such as Bishop, Seventy, or Apostle.

     Erm... This doesn't bother me too much, but certainly makes me uncomfortable, will need a little pondering and prayer.

Possibliity #3: Gay marriage is now ordained of God.

     This contradicts the gospel as I understand it, lots of wresting, and prayer. Would require peace spoken to my heart, otherwise i'll be on a      new path.

Possibility #4: (within the current social & political environment) The Lord has authorized the Prophet to exercise earthly political power and to ignore earthly governments as we now know them.  All members are to take up arms in defense of the new Kingdom of God, or the Nation of Deseret.  Policies and procedures for the political arm of the Church will be distributed soon.

      Meh, mostly not a problem. Lots of prayer. If it seems to exercise unrighteous dominion, will cause a struggle, otherwise not so much.

     (By their fruits ye shall know them)

Edited December 10, 2015 by Crypto

[Vort]

As pure hypotheticals, they are interesting. I find that hypothetical responses can be interesting, but I would not want anyone to hold me to them, because it could feel a lot different when it is not a hypothetical.

 

Exactly.

 

Possibility #1: Repeal of OD#1.

 

Doctrinally: Little or no problem. God has allowed/commanded it before, so I see no reason why he may not do so again. Many of my ancestors 4-6 generations ago practiced polygamy. It was difficult for them, but many things are difficult for many people. That doesn't make them wrong.

 

Personally: Moderate to serious problem. Not mainly for myself -- I'm pretty philosophical about the issue -- but the most important women in my life tend to despise and be terrified by the very idea of plural marriage. As far as I personally am concerned, frankly, I cannot think of any woman that would want to be married to me, especially as a plural wife. So I doubt it would touch me personally at all, though it would immediately affect many of the people I love most, e.g. my children.

 

Possibility #2: Women will now receive the priesthood and may be given any priesthood office such as Bishop, Seventy, or Apostle.

 

Doctrinally: Very serious problem. This would disturb me greatly, because it runs so completely counter to my understanding of the very essence and meaning of the Patriarchal Priesthood. I acknowledge that the Priesthood is, from my perspective, the power of Jesus Christ, and Priesthood authority emanates from him, so he gets to do whatever he wants with it, give it to whomever he chooses, etc. I also acknowledge that women have always exercised the authority of the Priesthood; as Elder Oaks explained, what other kind of divine authority can there be? So I might be able to get over it. But it would challenge the foundations of my understanding of Priesthood, and by extension my understanding of the nature of our very existence as men and women and our roles in the eyes of God.

 

Personally: Minor. If you discount the enormous doctrinal problems such a thing would present to me, I would not actually have much personal issue with it. If I could get past the doctrinal issues and find a way to harmonize my understanding with this hypothetical OD3, I doubt I would find it otherwise objectionable.

 

Possibliity #3: Gay marriage is now ordained of God.

 

Doctrinally and personally: Probably fatal. This so completely violates my understanding of the mind and will of God that, to be honest, I would probably require an overwhelming and utterly irrefutable revelation to continue.

 

Possibility #4:   (within the current social & political environment) The Lord has authorized the Prophet to exercise earthly political power and to ignore earthly governments as we now know them.  All members are to take up arms in defense of the new Kingdom of God, or the Nation of Deseret.  Policies and procedures for the political arm of the Church will be distributed soon.

 

Doctrinally: Extremely serious, possibly fatal. This is utterly unlike anything I have read in scripture or seen historically. The Lord simply does not deal with the nations of the earth in this manner, requiring his people to come out in open rebellion. They either flee the oppression or put up with it until the Lord sees fit to deliver them, either through confounding their enemies or allowing his people to be destroyed. Like #3, this would probably require a personal and irrefutable revelation before I would accept it.

 

Personally: Serious. We don't even comprehend what we stand to lose if we destabilize our governments. It would be foolish in the extreme, unless we are literally being persecuted to death or prison and we have no other recourse. In addition, I can think of precious few things I consider to be more despicable and disgusting than a disloyoal traitor. But if I overcame my doctrinal objections and decided it was of God (see "personal and irrefutable revelation" above), I am not sure how I could then disobey what I thought of as the divine word.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Vort

[Guest]

Thanks, Vort.  I liked how you were able to separate your personal feelings from your doctrinal analysis on the ideas.  And that I believe is a good part of how we should analyze many questions.

[Anddenex]

Possibility #1: Repeal of OD#1.

 

 Nonissue.  A practice that has been repealed and reinstated during more than one dispensation.  

 

Possibility #2: Women will now receive the priesthood and may be given any priesthood office such as Bishop, Seventy, or Apostle.

 

Nonissue. There are mysterious unknown.  Women are/will become Queens and Priestesses which denotes the possibility of a given authority.  In saying this maybe "nonissue" is not correct because I would probably need to receive more sure witness such that I knew for myself.

 

Possibliity #3: Gay marriage is now ordained of God.

 

Fatal.  Sin would have to be redefined, a change. Gender being an essential characteristic of an individual's three pillars identity and purpose.  Hypothetically, God would thus indeed be a liar (or one that changes rather than one that changes not), and God would cease to be God.  

 

Possibility #4: (within the current social & political environment) The Lord has authorized the Prophet to exercise earthly political power and to ignore earthly governments as we now know them.  All members are to take up arms in defense of the new Kingdom of God, or the Nation of Deseret.  Policies and procedures for the political arm of the Church will be distributed soon.

 

Conflicted. Will Zion be a place that ignores all earthly political powers and governments? Would Zion be able to accomplish God's order if controlled by political parties and governments (i.e. the natural man lends itself toward quests for power).  

 

Would I find it difficult to take up arms in defense of the Kingdom of God? No. Would I find it difficult if I find myself in a similar situation as the children of Israel in the Old Testament? Yes, I would definitely be conflicted.  This would require a more sure witness from the Lord.

 

The kingdom of God would be a far better form of government than any government currently established. 

[JojoBag]

Well, I don't know what OD means, but Nos. 2 and 3 really aren't worth considering because those two ideas are completely contrary to the revealed word of God.  It goes back to the very foundation of existence, so it will never happen; it's a moot point. 

 

As for No. 4, I would say it is actually a possibility.  There are some writings from early apostles and prophets that hint at the idea of armed resistance to government authority.  I do know that Joseph Smith stated that the Constitution would hang by a thread and that it would be the Elders of the Church that would save it from destruction.  While he didn't come out and say that saving it would be by force of arms, there are other prophecies that do say there will be armed conflict when a foreign power invades the country.

[Backroads]

1. Doctrinally I have little issue with it. Personally, not much concern either. I agree this would likely follow a social change.

22 . I'd accept this, but I would like to see far greater explanation of why beyond social equality. I shouldn't demand the Lord's reasoning, but I'd assume there would be reasoning of an eternal nature involved. For the mortal moment, I'm not crazy of having church and gospel g ed nder roles blurred.

That said, I'd probably take this one more or less in stride.

3. This one would likely kill my testimony.

4. As much as my inner anarchist would love this, I feel it doesn't fit with how the Lord usually works with mortal governments.

[cdowis]

How about a discount on tithing -- Pay in advance and get a 2% discount.

 

Sigh.

Edited December 10, 2015 by cdowis

[Guest]

The Church has announced that tithing next year will be raised from 10% to 20%.  This is an effort to end free agency.  Agency will no longer be free, but a slight surcharge will be posted whenever it is used.

[The Folk Prophet]

1. I think this will happen, but it will be when it needs to and not just randomly.

2. and 3. are like asking a myriad of other ridiculous things and should be considered just as ridiculous as said things (to follow) despite the fact that they're the trendy wolfish thing of the moment. We might as well ask about declarations revoking the law of chastity, an announcement that drum sets will replace organs in churches, stealing is now required to earn one's stripes prior to baptism, and that baptism will now be administered to infants.

4 is...whatever. If the Lord command, the Lord commands.

Edited December 11, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[mordorbund]

In the spirit of TFP's response to 2&3, what about

 

Official Declaration #5 - Repeal of OD2. A brief explanation is given tying OD2 to the law of Samuel (when the people reject the Lord's will, the Lord will let them pursue their own courses).

[Guest]

 

2. and 3. are like asking a myriad of other ridiculous things and should be considered just as ridiculous as said things (to follow) despite the fact that they're the trendy wolfish thing of the moment. 

 

Well, that's just ridiculous

[Guest]

In the spirit of TFP's response to 2&3, what about

 

Official Declaration #5 - Repeal of OD2. A brief explanation is given tying OD2 to the law of Samuel (when the people reject the Lord's will, the Lord will let them pursue their own courses).

 

I've seen that on the same threads I referred to in the OP.  But that thread died so easily that it wasn't worth putting in the list.  The fact is that this thread is a lot deader than any of the individual threads that I've read on each of those topics.  Maybe it's more boring than I thought it would be.

[MrShorty]

I know the discussion around this poll can be heated. Interestingly, the results of this survey suggest that about 3/4's of LDS would be supportive of hypothetical #2 (ordination of women). It seems that much of the disputation is for those who would turn this into some kind of "LDS women demand ordination" when it really just shows that a solid majority of LDS would be willing to follow the prophet down this hypothetical rabbit hole if he/they wanted to lead us that direction

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865643813/Disputed-poll-shows-LDS-support-for-continuing-revelation.html?pg=all

[kapikui]

#1 Repeal of OD 1 will probably happen either before the second coming on in the millennium. 

 

#2  Women getting the priesthood. I think this to be unlikely as it goes against the revealed order since Adam.  Simple social changes do not require God to change things. 

 

#3  Homosexual marriage. Basically the same answer as #2.  

 

#4 i s the interesting one.  the limit (within the current social & political environment) says it ain't going to happen. The church won't subvert a remotely righteous government. 

 

That said, I believe that a collapse of our current social and political structure is inevitable.  No I don't believe The Church will do anything to cause such a collapse, but since I can't see a way that massive civil war can be avoided, I also can't see The Church not stepping in once things fall apart to stave off total anarchy and the various bands of robbers who will spring up in the absence of any law enforcement. Since I see this occurrence as inevitable, I also see the church stepping in once it happens as inevitable. 

[Guest]

I almost forgot about this thread.  I guess I should also show my cards.

 

#1: Meh.

#2: Meh.  I guess I'm a little more open to this than some.  I don't see this as an impossibility or even one where I'd need a strong personal revelation.  It is the way it is now.  It can change.  And it will be what it will be.

#3: Yeah, kind of a deal breaker for me.  I'd really need a strong witness for me to stay with the Church if this happened.

#4: I'm not sure what the big deal is with this one.  "The Kingdom of God on the Earth" is as much a political power as a spiritual one.  And I have no problem believing that something like that would be set up prior to the Millenium.  But, hey, what do I know.  Yes, I just said "butt hay" :) .