Orlando shooting

[David13]

carlimac

It isn't "homophobia".  It's homo hatred.  Islams believe that homo ism is a sin punishable by death. 

dc

[carlimac]

  On 6/13/2016 at 1:04 AM, David13 said:

carlimac

It isn't "homophobia".  It's homo hatred.  Islams believe that homo ism is a sin punishable by death. 

dc

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That's true. But according to the gunman's father he reacted violently to seeing two men kissing. Not every Muslim reacts quite that openly to seeing it. So he may also have simply had a serious anger problem, too. I agree. Homophobia probably isn't the right word. I actually dislike that word a great deal. It's used to belittle people who believe only in man-women relationships. 

[Guest MormonGator]

 

  On 6/13/2016 at 1:40 AM, carlimac said:

That's true. But according to the gunman's father he reacted violently to seeing two men kissing. Not every Muslim reacts quite that openly to seeing it. So he may also have simply had a serious anger problem, too. I agree. Homophobia probably isn't the right word. I actually dislike that word a great deal. It's used to belittle people who believe only in man-women relationships. 

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Blunt statement: He was a psychopath looking for any excuse to kill people. 

[LeSellers]

  On 6/13/2016 at 1:04 AM, David13 said:

It isn't "homophobia".  It's homo hatred.  Islams believe that homo ism is a sin punishable by death.

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  Quote

Farrokh Sekaleshfar, a British-born doctor, was invited to speak at the Husseini Islamic Center [outside of Orlando, Florida] on March 29. The Muslim scholar gave a controversial sermon at the University of Michigan in 2013 claiming that “death is the sentence” for homosexuality.

“There’s nothing to be embarrassed about this. Death is the sentence,” he said during the sermon.

He then added an even more disturbing line: “We have to have that compassion for people. With homosexuals, it’s the same. Out of compassion, let’s get rid of them now.”

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The word "homophobia" (from the Greek: "same", and "fear" or "hatred") is "homo hatred". But it's abused, much like "gay" and "hate crime" by progressives who want to control the language. Thomas Szasz reminds us, "In the animal world, the law is kill or be killed. In the human world, it's define or be defined."

We need to start doing the defining.

Lehi

Edited June 13, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 1:58 AM, LeSellers said:

We need to start doing the defining.

 

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 The left has been doing it since the 60's and you have no chance of achieving success in trying to redefine what they've been working on for the past forty years. But I wish you the best of luck. 

::pats on head:: 

[LeSellers]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:26 AM, MormonGator said:

 The left has been doing it since the 60's and you have no chance of achieving success in trying to redefine what they've been working on for the past forty years. But I wish you the best of luck.

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Giving up 'cuz it's hard isn't in my nature.

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:26 AM, MormonGator said:

::pats on head:: 

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Thanks for the condescension. It's always comforting to know someone thinks of you as a child.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:28 AM, LeSellers said:

Giving up 'cuz it's hard isn't in my nature.

Thanks for the condescension. It's always comforting to know someone thinks of you as a child.

Lehi

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Nothing personal. You might just want to focus your mental energy on a winnable battle. 

I see it all the time in life. Of course I'm not just talking about you. Smart people who mean well and get sidetracked and raise the swords over battles they just can't win. They get obsessed with it like a crusade and before they know it, they lose sight of the big picture. Happens all the time. 

[LeSellers]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:35 AM, MormonGator said:

You might just want to focus your mental energy on a winnable battle. 

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If we follow the "it's just the way it is" philosophy, there wouldn't be any battles.

No one seems to know, but I'll ask again: where do we plant our flag, which line is it that we say, thus far and no further?

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:41 AM, LeSellers said:

If we follow the "it's just the way it is" philosophy, there wouldn't be any battles.

No one seems to know, but I'll ask again: where do we plant our flag, which line is it that we say, thus far and no further?

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What do you intend to do? Take em out back and beat them up? Thumb wrestling? Eating contest? Dance off? 

[The Folk Prophet]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:35 AM, MormonGator said:

Nothing personal.  

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I don't think that means what you think it means.

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:48 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't think that means what you think it means.

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 You are right. It could mean "lighten up" too. 

[LeSellers]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:47 AM, MormonGator said:

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:41 AM, LeSellers said:

If we follow the "it's just the way it is" philosophy, there wouldn't be any battles.

No one seems to know, but I'll ask again: where do we plant our flag, which line is it that we say, thus far and no further?

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What do you intend to do? Take em out back and beat them up? Thumb wrestling? Eating contest? Dance off? 

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I asked first. Where do we stand for righteousness or just common sense?

Lehi

[The Folk Prophet]

It's pretty simple actually. We preach the gospel. Period. That is the answer and the solution. Nothing else will do much to resolve these sorts of problems. This is war between good and evil.

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 2:56 AM, LeSellers said:

I asked first. Where do we stand for righteousness or just common sense?

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Stand for righteousness meaning what?  

[LeSellers]

  On 6/13/2016 at 3:02 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

It's pretty simple actually. We preach the gospel. Period. That is the answer and the solution. Nothing else will do much to resolve these sorts of problems. This is war between good and evil.

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That's true. Alma discovered this, but it only changes (for the better) those who listen and apply the message.

That leave a very large number of people who can easily and frequently become implacable enemies. One of the things I swore to do was uphold and defend the Constitution of the united Sates of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

  On 6/13/2016 at 3:06 AM, MormonGator said:

Stand for righteousness meaning what?  

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How would you define it? It's not that hard.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 3:09 AM, LeSellers said:

How would you define it? It's not that hard.

Lehi

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You tell me you are the one arguing for it.  

It's actually very abstract. By "Stand for righteousness" you mean....

Edited June 13, 2016 by MormonGator

[TilKingdomCome]

  On 6/13/2016 at 12:24 AM, carlimac said:

ugh! The internet is full of chaos right now about who or what is really to blame. Gays want this to be about violence towards gays, requiring even more protection for them. Liberals want this to be only about gun control. They're hedging mightily that it has anything to do with ISIS. Conservatives are saying the killer pledged support to ISIS so yes it's a terrorist attack and this would have happened with gun control or not. AND wiping egg off their faces about saying bad things about gays."Well, we never said we want to kill them."  The LDS Church is simply offering condolences to victims and their families. LGBT supporters/ Mormon haters are saying, we don't want your sympathy because you won't let us take the sacrament or baptize our children in your church. Some Disney afficionadoas are even asking for prayers for Orlando because that's where Disneyland is. they don't care much for the victims, just that their beloved Disneyland is so close to the danger.    What. A. Mess. 

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1. As well as all these opposing views, there's also all those Illuminati-tinfoil-hat people who are leaving comments on every video about the shooting claiming that it's all some hoax. Pretty insensitive tbh.

 

2. "LGBT supporters/Mormon haters are saying, we don't want your sympathy because you won't let us take the sacrament or baptize our children in your church". That's ridiculous. The church has explained MANY times why that rule about those children not getting baptized is necessary, not an act of hatred. And everyone should respect the church for the support it's given in relation to this tragedy. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought gay people ARE allowed to take the sacrament - in my church ward, there's an investigator who still hasn't turned away from homosexuality and he's still allowed to take the sacrament.

Edited June 13, 2016 by TilKingdomCome
missing r in haters

[estradling75]

  On 6/13/2016 at 11:39 AM, TilKingdomCome said:

2. "LGBT supporters/Mormon haters are saying, we don't want your sympathy because you won't let us take the sacrament or baptize our children in your church". That's ridiculous. The church has explained MANY times why that rule about those children not getting baptized is necessary, not an act of hatred. And everyone should respect the church for the support it's given in relation to this tragedy. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought gay people ARE allowed to take the sacrament - in my church ward, there's an investigator who still hasn't turned away from homosexuality and he's still allowed to take the sacrament.

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The only mortals that have the power to stop someone from taking the sacrament are the bishop and the individual in question.  Other people might have strong opinions about the matter... they might even be right... but they have not the authority.   As for the other things... well  many people are not going to let pesky things like facts get in the way of their hated.  (And it is hatred no matter how wronged they think they are)

Edited June 13, 2016 by estradling75

[CV75]

It is interesting to me that when we hear these reports, we're beginning to hear that they are considered terrorist acts inspired by such-and-such an ideology; the perpetrators have serious personal issues which they seek to glorify by attaching to a particular cause. One of the USA government's approach is to counter such ideologies at the community level, but I'm not sure how a government succeeds in going about preaching an effective, political gospel of peace. Of course the Book of Mormon lays out the direct answer.

“And these are they who have published peace, who have brought good tidings of good, who have published salvation; and said unto Zion: Thy God reigneth! And O how beautiful upon the mountains were their feet! And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that are still publishing peace! And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who shall hereafter publish peace, yea, from this time henceforth and forever! And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people… Yea, Lord, thy watchmen shall lift up their voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.” – Mosiah 15; 14-18, 29.

“And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be. And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren. And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.” -- 1 Nephi 13: 37 – 39

“And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.” – Moroni 10: 31

...but we better not actually call it “Zion!” LOL But we can still be pure in heart.

[anatess2]

I've never been so grateful of Facebook than yesterday.  I have tons of friends in Orlando... including my husband's best friend and his ex-partner, both gays who go to gay bars.  We couldn't get a hold of them on their phones and we started to panic until they popped up Safe on Facebook.  Cool feature, that.

[Guest MormonGator]

  On 6/13/2016 at 1:51 PM, anatess2 said:

I've never been so grateful of Facebook than yesterday.  I have tons of friends in Orlando... including my husband's best friend and his ex-partner, both gays who go to gay bars.  We couldn't get a hold of them on their phones and we started to panic until they popped up Safe on Facebook.  Cool feature, that.

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Same here. People bash Facebook all the time (ironically often times from their Facebook) but I'm so glad for it, in particular in this case. 

[NeuroTypical]

This event, from where I'm standing, marks a turning point in our culture (and I use that term loosely, both as US culture, and internet culture) in more than one way.

- No more polite waiting period to express grief and mourn victims before engaging in the public debate.  The first day, I saw people talking gun legislation, homophobia, Islamic terror, militarization of cops, Trump, immigration, concealed carry, judgments of God, and who is or isn't a hypocrite and why.   San Bernadino and Paris, most of us expressed grief and support and waited a few days.  No longer. 

- Before the day was out, CNN had a huge quarter-page headline about the shooter giving credit to ISIS, and lots of stories describing his obvious ties to militant Islamic terror.  That didn't happen with San Bernadino either. We have gone from questioning, evaluating possibilities, wondering about the pros and cons of singling out a group - we've gone from that to saying "Yes, here is another deadly ISIS attack on American soil."  No reasonable person doubts any more that we have a clear, present, threat in our country to our lives and our way of life.  Or at least a nonzero chance of such.

[unixknight]

@NeuroTypical The only thing I'd disagree with is the idea that the politicizing of tragedy is a new thing... I remember prettymuch every violent tragedy in the last few years had this.  People were screaming about gun control before the bodies at Sandy Hook were even cold.  I wish it weren't so, but it is.

I agree about the awareness of ISIS thing.  I think maybe it's because one media favorite group hit an even more favored group and now it's on...

[Windseeker]

  On 6/12/2016 at 10:22 PM, yjacket said:

People hate Trump b/c he supposedly says "racists" things . .. it ain't racist it's a fact.  When you show up to a political protest of an American President and you are waving a Mexican flag, something is seriously wrong. When you have a completely different set of underpinning moral/religious values (i.e. Muslim) combining cultures is very, very difficult.

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Stuck in traffic I got to stare at this on the back of a truck. It's stupidity on a scale that is almost poetic.

To state your opposition in a way that bolsters and emboldens the same thing you oppose...is just...well ...what can you say...Mexican?