Trying to save my Marriage

[NeedleinA]

14 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

By not talking about the fact that it is everywhere and that it really isn't a question of "if", it is only a question of "when was the last time you saw it", we are doing a genuine disservice to those involved with it. Porn use manifests itself at varying levels: Stumbled on it, casual infrequent use, frequent and lastly addicted. Most men and women who view porn do not fall into the level of addiction. They could at some point, but most don't.

1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

 Yes it is better to avoid these item all together but you (OP) are not an addict.

Pornography isn't just a problem that one needs to seek out anymore. It is a problem that seeks us out now. Just the other night at a open house for my 9th grader, I sat in an auditorium with all the other parents and kids. We watched a YouTube video about the School. At the close of the video, Youtube popped up with it's suggestions and corresponding images. To the shock of many all of us we were now starring at a variety of pornographic images as the person in charge of the projector scrambled to turn it off. I asked my boys the other night, "When was the last time you saw a pornographic image?". Not "if", but "when". One son (14yrs old) answered 2 days ago. The other (12yrs old) said one week ago. We had a discussion about it.

Going to divorce your husband over pornography? What? What kind of reaction are you going to have when your child brings it up to you too? Disown her or him?
Do you think that child would ever share with his mother that she/he had a problem if he knew his mother left her/his father over the subject? Our reactions on this subject may set the tone for our loved one's willingness/ability to share their concerns as well.

Elder Oaks talk: Recovering from the Trap of Pornography
II. The Significance of Understanding These Levels

Once we recognize these different levels, we also recognize that not everyone who uses pornography willfully is addicted to it. In fact, most young men and young women who struggle with pornography are not addicted. That is a very important distinction to make—not just for the parents, spouses, and leaders who desire to help but also for those who struggle with this problem.

Edited September 6, 2016 by NeedleinA

[omegaseamaster75]

26 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Yes, but there is a difference between stumbling across something and going to seek it out as a matter of habit.

Habit is not equal to Addiction

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1 hour ago, Mcmkk said:

We have both gone to the bishop and she has expressed her concerns and he told her that it was up to her what to do and he couldn't advise her to leave me or to stay with me. I was kind of shocked he said that.  He said the fight would be worth it if she was willing to fight and agreed with her that staying with me is a risk. He really didn't tell her what to do. That made her feel like it is ok to leave me. He also said that she gets to decide when I get my temple recommend back which I thought was strange. I don't know how long it should be before I get to go back but she says I'm nowhere near ready for that and I feel that temple attendance is the most important thing we could be doing to save our marriage and it's been 6 weeks that I have been clean. Shouldn't the bishop decide this and not my wife? 

Bishops are forbidden in the handbook from counseling for a divorce, and to avoid making decisions for people or offering solutions right off the bat.  Their role is to help people analyze their situation in light of the gospel, commandments, plan of salvation etc and teach them how to find solutions, help them to become spiritually self reliant and learn from the Spirit what they should do, not boss them around. You need to do that with respect to your situation, and she needs to do that with respect to her situation. 

Did you only meet as a couple with him?  You should both also meet individually with the Bishop.  If you have concerns with is counsel to your wife or feel she is taking it a way he didn't intend you should talk with him about that privately. It's OK to politely question his counsel or ask for clarification as long as you are willing to follow it as you question it, but you do that one on one.  Give him a chance to explain why he said what he said.  He may only be able to answer that that was what he felt impressed to say, but it is better to have that conversation than to walk around with negativity over it.

The Bishop did decide when you get to go back, and his decision was when your wife was OK with it.  Your not going to the temple probably gives her space to work out what is going on with her, your going before she is ready for that may be harmful to her progress.  And one of the evidences of being truly repentant is a willingness to accept consequences.  You might want to find a copy of Spencer W. Kimball's book Miracle of Forgiveness and read that.  I know it isn't popular in some circles since it is more direct that many people are like, but I like it.

Also, repentance doesn't have a lot to do how long it's been since you've last done it, and how  many nice things you've done since. You don't get to decide what is enough to make up for what you did.  As long as she is hurt, and as long as you have not won back her trust you have not done enough and you need to humbly accept that day after day till it's over, not get impatient and demand relief. 

[prisonchaplain]

From this outsider's perspective there is something underlying this scenario.  Yes, women are deeply wounded  when they find out their husband's been viewing pornography.  It feels like cheating, but worse, it attacks her self-image/worth.  BUT, given that hubby confessed to the sin (rather than her finding out), and given that it was done for only a few months surrounding a pregnancy (so many here have shared stories of hidden addiction that went on for years, without wife knowing), the wife's response seems swift and hard.  So here is some speculation:  She may be extra sensitive, may struggle with self doubt, or it may be that she was floundering under the burdens of family life prior to the revelation. Post partum depression, just the sense of being overwhelmed, etc.  Then, along comes THIS.  She may see it as a way out.  It's not that she was looking for one.  It's just that, MAYBE, she feels inadequate to the duties and struggles she faces, and suddenly there is a way to escape.  SO, heed the advice of the LDS here--GET THEE TO COUNSELING.  Strongly urge her to do likewise.  ALSO, find ways to lessen her load, and re-assure her that she is loved and supported.  She must not feel alone, or things could go south.  Hope this helps. 

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

 

The Bishop did decide when you get to go back, and his decision was when your wife was OK with it.  Your not going to the temple probably gives her space to work out what is going on with her, your going before she is ready for that may be harmful to her progress.  And one of the evidences of being truly repentant is a willingness to accept consequences.  You might want to find a copy of Spencer W. Kimball's book Miracle of Forgiveness and read that.  I know it isn't popular in some circles since it is more direct that many people are like, but I like it.

The problem with letting his wife decide is that the Bishop is abdicating his role as a judge in Israel, The bishop is responsible for the OP's spiritual wellness not his wife.  If you leave it up to her he'll never get back to the temple. 

There is an impossible standard that men get held up to.  I don't know what they are teaching in YW but they need to clue these women on some of the realities of being a man.  Men are not held guiltless we need to conquer our demons and keep the natural man at bay. 

 

There needs to be some sort of balance, I view porn and now we are throwing around the D word (divorce) and the A word (addiction). No not real life.

2 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Also, repentance doesn't have a lot to do how long it's been since you've last done it, and how  many nice things you've done since. You don't get to decide what is enough to make up for what you did.  As long as she is hurt, and as long as you have not won back her trust you have not done enough and you need to humbly accept that day after day till it's over, not get impatient and demand relief. 

 Forgiveness from his wife may take a long time. Forgiveness from Jesus it's done already.

[Windseeker]

 

To the OP:

No matter how you feel about your wife's reactions or your Bishops decisions, your best plan of action is to bear all things with humility. 

I've been thru this myself and my wife's reaction was such that she lost her husband, her children and her standing with the church. It was my sin that triggered this, and the pain it's brought about is almost immeasurable but I can tell you first hand that if you remain humble and Christlike and hand your life over to your Heavenly Father it will all turn out for good.

I remarried soon after my divorce and after years of difficulty in a mixed family have never felt so very loved and understood and am amazed to find it grows more and more as the years go by.

If you are truly repentant, your wife will either decide to forgive you or she will heap upon herself her own destruction (to put it bluntly). Your wife is a free agent and must decide on her own to either accept or reject the Savior. It's up to you to make sure you are well along the right path to help her along and not become a stumbling block for her. Now that you have repented, it's up to you to help your wife by showing unconditional love, long-suffering, patience, kindness and humbly withstanding her wrath till time, experience and a greater understanding of the gospel brings about a change of heart.

You are doing the right thing by seeing the Bishop together.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

The problem with letting his wife decide is that the Bishop is abdicating his role as a judge in Israel, The bishop is responsible for the OP's spiritual wellness not his wife.  If you leave it up to her he'll never get back to the temple. 

There is an impossible standard that men get held up to.  I don't know what they are teaching in YW but they need to clue these women on some of the realities of being a man.  Men are not held guiltless we need to conquer our demons and keep the natural man at bay. 

 

There needs to be some sort of balance, I view porn and now we are throwing around the D word (divorce) and the A word (addiction). No not real life.

 Forgiveness from his wife may take a long time. Forgiveness from Jesus it's done already.

He did not abdicate his role, he filled it and made a judgement that was unexpected and unorthodox.  How do you know he was not inspired to do that?  How do you know what the end result of that will really be? Putting her in that position may be what is needed to teach her a lesson or two.  The right course is to go with it and let the Lord bless him for obedience.  If it really bothers him, he should discuss his concerns with the Bishop but he should not push back and reject what the Bishop says.  The bishop has responsibilities towards everybody in the ward, even non members in the ward boundaries. 

And while Christ has already paid for out sins, that doesn't mean the OP is forgiven.  With God we are forgiven on the condition of repentance, which the OP has started but not finished.

I agree that at this point she is way overboard, acting like he broke the law of chastity.  Perhaps in her mind she thinks what he did is a LoC violation.  She needs to wake up and realize that her refusing to forgive makes her guilty of the greater sin here.

 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

From this outsider's perspective there is something underlying this scenario.  Yes, women are deeply wounded  when they find out their husband's been viewing pornography.  It feels like cheating, but worse, it attacks her self-image/worth.  BUT, given that hubby confessed to the sin (rather than her finding out), and given that it was done for only a few months surrounding a pregnancy (so many here have shared stories of hidden addiction that went on for years, without wife knowing), the wife's response seems swift and hard.  So here is some speculation:  She may be extra sensitive, may struggle with self doubt, or it may be that she was floundering under the burdens of family life prior to the revelation. Post partum depression, just the sense of being overwhelmed, etc.  Then, along comes THIS.  She may see it as a way out.  It's not that she was looking for one.  It's just that, MAYBE, she feels inadequate to the duties and struggles she faces, and suddenly there is a way to escape.  SO, heed the advice of the LDS here--GET THEE TO COUNSELING.  Strongly urge her to do likewise.  ALSO, find ways to lessen her load, and re-assure her that she is loved and supported.  She must not feel alone, or things could go south.  Hope this helps. 

The OP said something about her not wanting to be like other women who forgave their husbands.  Perhaps there was somebody close to her, perhaps even her mother, whose life was greatly impacted for the worse due to their husband's addiction to porn and she is afraid of the same thing happening to her.  If her father was a porn addict, there is a greater chance she was molested by him and that could certainly be a factor in her reaction if that happened, wanting to protect her daughter etc.  All just speculation of course, but it does throw a different light on her behaviour.

Also, my Bishop told me once that I would be shocked if I knew how many sisters in the church were struggling with pornography addiction.

[NeedleinA]

13 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Also, my Bishop told me once that I would be shocked if I knew how many sisters in the church were struggling with pornography addiction.

What an eye opener, against the grain stereotype destroyer when a 12 year old girl says she is involved with pornography. Here is a video I have shared in the past. This "other" young girl started at age 11. Absolute must see for all - imho.

 

[Windseeker]

4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

What an eye opener, against the grain stereotype destroyer when a 12 year old girl says she is involved with pornography. Here is a video I have shared in the past. This "other" young girl started at age 11. Absolute must see for all - imho.

Well from a mans perspective this young lady's struggle has blessed her with a sympathy, understanding and patience that is completely void in many LDS women and could make her a more desirable companion.  Imagine the kind of honest and open communication enjoyed in that marriage and the wisdom to approach and navigate the inevitable challenges that are a part of life. A sensible approach geared at overcoming, forgiveness and healing rather then the self-righteous family destroying pharisaical meltdown so often shared on this site.

I'm obviously not recommending someone purposely chain themselves down in misery on purpose just positing this question,  what good is our worthiness and purity if all it does is cause us to reach out and grasp the nearest stone to throw whenever those we are commanded to love (which I think is everybody and especially our spouses) slip and fall and reach out to us for forgiveness and help? 

[Guest MormonGator]

I admire anyone who wants to try and work on their marriage. That alone is very admirable.

[omegaseamaster75]

17 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

He did not abdicate his role, he filled it and made a judgement that was unexpected and unorthodox.  How do you know he was not inspired to do that?  How do you know what the end result of that will really be? Putting her in that position may be what is needed to teach her a lesson or two.  The right course is to go with it and let the Lord bless him for obedience.  If it really bothers him, he should discuss his concerns with the Bishop but he should not push back and reject what the Bishop says.  The bishop has responsibilities towards everybody in the ward, even non members in the ward boundaries. 

 

I think that I disagree, judgement lies with the bishop and him alone. It is his mantel one that he cannot pass off to another. He is responsible for the spiritual welfare of those in his care this includes the OP separated from his wife.  

17 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

And while Christ has already paid for out sins, that doesn't mean the OP is forgiven.  With God we are forgiven on the condition of repentance, which the OP has started but not finished.

I think that the OP has repented, I think that he is covered. I am not his bishop so my opinion matters very little. I like to think that Jesus will give maximum allowance for our meager efforts. We are all sinners and no unclean thing can enter into his presence without his grace which I hope us use a lot of, all is lost.

17 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I agree that at this point she is way overboard, acting like he broke the law of chastity.  Perhaps in her mind she thinks what he did is a LoC violation.  She needs to wake up and realize that her refusing to forgive makes her guilty of the greater sin here.

This is were I think you are dead wrong, he did break the law of chastity. She does need to overlook this weakness and forgive him. 

[mdfxdb]

OP, 

You need to get to an MFT real quick. Your wife needs to be there with you.  There needs to be some perspective on this.  I am with Omega here.  What you did was wrong.  It was a sin, but if you are truthful in your posts, then you have stopped, and have repented.  If I were your bishop we would be done...

[yjacket]

On 9/6/2016 at 3:33 PM, Windseeker said:

If you are truly repentant, your wife will either decide to forgive you or she will heap upon herself her own destruction (to put it bluntly).

Bingo. There is a naivete I think among LDS married women that to me is a little befuddling. How many priesthood talks, GC talks, 5th Sunday talks, etc. end up being about pornography. Over the last 5 years, I know in my wards there are at least 2 5th Sunday talks a year about porn. Obviously, it is a problem or there wouldn't be a focus on it . . The statistics bare this out, I don't have the link but IIRC something like at least 70% of LDS men by the time they are in their 20s have looked at porn. It is a massive problem-yes it is a sin, no worthy priesthood bearer should be looking at porn, however for anyone to equate it to equally adultery or that it is divorce worthy by itself is just nuts.

There are Bishops that advise those who have porn issues to go to the temple more rather than taking away the temple recommend. It is not in and of itself an automatic "take away the recommend"-it certainly can be depending on the inspiration the Bishop receives, but it is not automatic.

So it befuddles me that there is such a visceral "I'll divorce him" reaction if their spouse uses porn. Honestly, my opinion is that if my marriage can't sustain a hit like this, then maybe my marriage didn't mean much to my wife. I will also say that no man in a fully-functional happy marriage will resort to using porn. It is my contention that men who use porn while married are trying to make up/compensate for something that is lacking in their marriage. Which considering how much society tells women that their 1st priority should be to their children rather than their husbands-it doesn't surprise me how a husband would easily feel neglected by his wife and would then use porn.

So take this brother . . .new kid, wife certainly isn't going to be feeling like giving affection/sex, is going to be giving more attention to the newborn, etc. Husband possibly feels neglected or possibly doesn't like how his wife looks (i.e. isn't attracted to her in her after-babiness). So what does he do-he uses porn to make up for whatever he isn't getting/giving in the relationship. He recognizes this is wrong, quits after 2 months and tells his wife. This should be a very simple; "husband, I hate you right now-you are on my crap list for a while-don't do it again". Bishop "brother, you did wrong, repent, don't do it again". Now, this is all under the assumption that this brother did nothing else besides what he said too.

It does really bother me as a society that we throw around divorce so often like it is a toy or that life is so much better afterwards (only in the worst of marriages is that true). The long-term ramifications and problems of divorce breed so many problems .. . .  

Edited September 8, 2016 by yjacket

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, yjacket said:

So it befuddles me that there is such a visceral "I'll divorce him" reaction if their spouse uses porn. Honestly, my opinion is that if my marriage can't sustain a hit like this, then maybe my marriage didn't mean much to my wife] 

Double bingo. Porn is a sin, it's a bad thing (I've never struggled with it personally. I have other weaknesses but porn isn't one of them) but @yjacket is exactly right here. If you divorce your husband over this and this alone, then you as a wife need to rethink what marriage means. 

[yjacket]

On 9/6/2016 at 10:17 AM, Mcmkk said:

We have both gone to the bishop and she has expressed her concerns and he told her that it was up to her what to do and he couldn't advise her to leave me or to stay with me. I was kind of shocked he said that.  He said the fight would be worth it if she was willing to fight and agreed with her that staying with me is a risk. He really didn't tell her what to do. That made her feel like it is ok to leave me. He also said that she gets to decide when I get my temple recommend back which I thought was strange. I don't know how long it should be before I get to go back but she says I'm nowhere near ready for that and I feel that temple attendance is the most important thing we could be doing to save our marriage and it's been 6 weeks that I have been clean. Shouldn't the bishop decide this and not my wife? 

The Bishops counsel is a little unorthodox, but he may be trying to do a couple of things.  1) You are young, the best way to solve a problem is to ensure that the 1st time it happens the hammer is dropped-very, very hard. (Parenting tip-this really comes in handy when dealing with children;small problems-disproportionate consequences-the punishment engulfs the crime-it nips it in the bud so to speak). The Bishop is probably really trying to help you nip this in the bud so to speak. 2) He actually did counsel her to stay-just not in those words . . . . "He said the fight would be worth it" -that in my book is counsel to stay. 3) By giving your wife some control over the recommend, he might be trying to soften up her heart and allow her an anger outlet rather than straight up divorce. Plus, it will also give him a good measure as to how vindictive or Christlike she is-which will guide some of his future counsel.

Finally, it is highly likely that your wife really has no clue what makes a good husband-in today's society hardly anyone knows what makes a good husband or wife.  It is spelled out in the Proclamation on the Family. Your role as a husband is to be a good provider and to ensure that she is #1 on the priority list. You screwed up on the priority list for a few months-rectify that and then make sure your are a good provider-be the leader of family, the head of household. The biggest key in all this is to simply be humble-stay humble and keep working forward-it will all work out.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

10 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This is were I think you are dead wrong, he did break the law of chastity. She does need to overlook this weakness and forgive him. 

The church handbook lists both pornography and masturbation as failures to live the standards of the church where formal church discipline is not necessary.  Violating the WoW, not paying tithing, not coming to church regularly etc. are in the same category.  What he did was serious, but the church does not treat it like a violation of the law of chastity.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

The church handbook lists both pornography and masturbation as failures to live the standards of the church where formal church discipline is not necessary.  Violating the WoW, not paying tithing, not coming to church regularly etc. are in the same category.  What he did was serious, but the church does not treat it like a violation of the law of chastity.

Good points. It's important to keep sin in perspective. 

[SilentOne]

It was my understanding that the law of chastity includes not viewing porn or masturbating. Fornication and adultery are other sins that also violate the law of chastity.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

17 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

It was my understanding that the law of chastity includes not viewing porn or masturbating. Fornication and adultery are other sins that also violate the law of chastity.

The law of chastity is that you do not have sexual relations with any other person than your spouse.  Porn and masturbation are morally wrong, but they are not sexual relationship with other people.

[SilentOne]

I think I found where I got that impression.

Quote

We have been taught that the law of chastity encompasses more than sexual intercourse. The First Presidency warned young people of other sexual sins:

“Before marriage, do not do anything to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage. Do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not allow anyone to do that with you. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body” (For the Strength of Youth [pamphlet, 2001], 27).

Gospel Principles Chapter 39: The Law of Chastity

[Latter-Day Marriage]

9 hours ago, SilentOne said:

I think I found where I got that impression.

The law of chastity is spelled out very clearly as being sexual relations outside of marriage, which would certainly include more than intercourse, but that still takes two people.  Porn and masturbation are other sexual sins, serious yes, morally wrong yes, but they do not fall under that category of a LoC violation and certainly not a grave as adultery.  Thinking that all sexual sins are a LoC violation is partly what leads to an overreaction like hers.

[omegaseamaster75]

28 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

The law of chastity is spelled out very clearly as being sexual relations outside of marriage, which would certainly include more than intercourse, but that still takes two people.  Porn and masturbation are other sexual sins, serious yes, morally wrong yes, but they do not fall under that category of a LoC violation and certainly not a grave as adultery.  Thinking that all sexual sins are a LoC violation is partly what leads to an overreaction like hers.

In the most technical self abuse is a sexual relationship with someone other than your spouse. The law of chastity is spelled out very clearly as abstinence from sexual relations outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage.  How loyal are you being if you are self abusing? Your not.

While I think that the OPs self abuse falls into the realm of normal guy stuff and not a problem it can become a problem if not properly checked.

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

the OPs self abuse falls into the realm of normal guy   natural man stuff

 

[omegaseamaster75]

25 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

While I think that the OPs self abuse falls into the realm of normal guy stuff and not a problem it can become a problem if not properly checked.

@Eowyn, it's normal. That does not make it right, and is something that we need to work on to put aside that natural man but it is normal.  I don't advocate it and if you are doing it you need to stop.

Our problem is we take a behavior and God has said that we shouldn't do it. So ok we promise to not do it, but as men (and women are not immune to this) we fail. I think that in the church we lay the "guilt's" on so thick that most boys or men think that there is something wrong with them.  When in reality there is not.  Frank conversations need to be had about the function of the human body and specifically the male reproductive system with our youth, and how we should put aside the natural man not lay the guilt's on them hoping that will fix the issue. It only makes it worse.