what if you don't want to become an endowed member?

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Something a good martial artist remembers is that their opponent is the toughest, meanest, strongest person in the world. Never, ever under estimate them. That's what both Bruce Lee and Ed Parker taught. No matter how strong and tough and skilled you think you are (and you might very well be!)-you will lose from time to time and you will get your butt kicked. 

If I meet someone in marital arts who says they've never lost in sparring or in a "real fight" (a true garbage term) I know immediately I've met a liar. 

Right.  The objective is not always necessarily to win the fight but also to gain respect.  You can lose the fight but win respect... you still win.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

Swords tend to be impractical outside the house.

So, why are you studying the daito?  Or does that mean something different to you than it does to me?

[zil]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

That's sums up my husband's thoughts too.

Why is your husband worried about whether @An Investigator's garments come off!

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The short stick/long stick/sword/knife/open-hand training in true Filipino Martial Arts is designed so you get comfortable with anything available when you get caught in a street fight.  

I have independent verification of what anatess2 is saying.  Met a Filipino dude at a knife fighting symposium.  He totally agreed that from his perspective, everything is either a stick, or something you hit with a stick.

[zil]

33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

If I meet someone in marital arts who says they've never lost in sparring or in a "real fight" (a true garbage term) I know immediately I've met a liar. 

A liar or Chuck Norris, you mean.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

A liar or Chuck Norris, you mean.

lol. Even Chuck Norris (who actually was among the most skilled martial artists who ever lived) lost from time to time. It's just human nature. Even Chuck Norris knew his limitations. When asked what technique he'd use to defend his house if someone broke in in the middle of the night he said "I'd use my 12 gauge."

Smart man. 

[zil]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

lol. Even Chuck Norris (who actually was among the most skilled martial artists who ever lived) lost from time to time. It's just human nature. Even Chuck Norris knew his limitations. When asked what technique he'd use to defend his house if someone broke in in the middle of the night he said "I'd use my 12 gauge."

Smart man. 

Stop ruining my jokes with your seriousness!

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

Stop ruining my jokes with your seriousness!

lol. For the first time in my life I was called serious! I can't wait to tell my mother!!!! 

Edited November 29, 2016 by MormonGator

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

lol. Even Chuck Norris (who actually was among the most skilled martial artists who ever lived) lost from time to time. It's just human nature. Even Chuck Norris knew his limitations. When asked what technique he'd use to defend his house if someone broke in in the middle of the night he said "I'd use my 12 gauge."

Smart man. 

When I was doing some modern fencing, I had the opportunity to go up against an Olympic bronze medalist and a former UK national champion.  Both times I managed to score at least once, with less than 3 months of experience.  Keeping in mind that in foil, only solid touches to a potentially lethal target area count, that's a pretty sound argument in favor of never getting in a fair fight, no matter how good you are.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But don't see how it is considered "selfish" to go through the motions because you feel like it is your duty.  You mentioned it being equivalent to sucking  up to someone to garner a favor.  What favor is there in fellowshipping?  What possible personal gain would I have?

The fact is that we do many things simply because we feel like we're supposed to.  No, that is not ideal.  But I believe it is a necessary first step to eventually growing to do the right thing with full faith and charity.  It is like my tooth brushing analogy again.  As a kid I did it because I was forced to.  Later, because I knew I was supposed to.  Today I brush my teeth because it feels disgusting to not do it.

Carb, I never said "selfish" I didn't even think it.  What I said was no one likes to be a "project".  So let's not make people "projects".  Let's be true friends.  No there's not favor in fellowshipping, what I meant was both are fake...lacking true emotion. 

The problem I have with your toothbruth analogy is that the person you are fellowshipping is not an inanimate object.   My comment was simply a suggestion.  Feel free to ignore it.  

@anatess2, no my daughter is not the problem.  You misunderstood my point that is all.  

 

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, why are you studying the daito?  Or does that mean something different to you than it does to me?

Sorry - I was referring to daito-ryu aikijutsu, which has a lot of empty hand and knife techniques that are a bit more...aggressive than what aikido has generally become since its early days.  While both have plenty of sword techniques too, there's a strong focus on methods that can be used when drawing the sword would be impractical or potentially dishonorable.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Carb, I never said "selfish" I didn't even think it.  What I said was no one likes to be a "project".  So let's not make people "projects".  Let's be true friends.  No there's not favor in fellowshipping, what I meant was both are fake...lacking true emotion. 

The problem I have with your toothbruth analogy is that the person you are fellowshipping is not an inanimate object.   My comment was simply a suggestion.  Feel free to ignore it.  

I've really had to consider some things in order to figure out what is really happening here.  And I believe you've helped me discover something about myself.  My brand of "sincerity" is different than yours.  When you were describing your idea of "fake", it was describing me.  But when I do things to help others, I'm not faking it.  That is why I felt the need to push back.

I'm a workaholic.  I must have a goal, a mission, an assignment -- even if that assignment is self-designated.  So everything I see and do is through the lens of the "project" mentality.  If you ask me to be someone's friend, I have no idea what to do.  But if you give me an assignment to get a job done and other people are also working towards that goal, we just naturally become friends.

The toothbrush analogy was not about the person, but the responsibility we have.  And that responsibility isn't an animate object (is it?).  The responsibility/commandment we've been given to love others.  But I simply don't just spontaneously have a well-spring of love that I can turn on and off at will.  So, it is that practice that we start off doing because we have to, then because we're supposed to, then finally because we want to.

I just don't think of things in terms of people like you do.  I think of projects.  If that's your definition of a faker, then I guess that's what I am.  But I don't think so.

BTW, this is one reason why I suck at missionary work and fellowshipping.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Guest

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Carborendum,  I think we mostly agree here.  I didn't mean to call you a faker (or anyone else for that matter).  If that was the way it came across, I apologize.  I was suggesting a different approach that's all.  Does that make sense?  Here's another way to look at it.  We all have different talents right?  Likely you are better at getting things accomplished than I am because you are project oriented.  I'm more people oriented.  One of my talents is loving people, being a friend.  Why can't we use our talents to help one another improve?  

By the way,  I do the ward bulletin, if you could tell me how to pull that off each week without some errors, I'd love it.  Apparently attention to detail is not my strong suit.  Is that a good project....or too, too easy, LOL!     Also not my strong suit....leadership postions---I was the Primary President once...we survived, but I realized that is really not my strength.  I'm much better at teaching than managing.  

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[priesthoodpower]

10 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This.  And the problem is not with the YW leadership but with your daughter.  When the leadership asked her to fellowship the other young women they didn't intend for your daughter to comply by using fakery... the solution would have been for your daughter to figure out a way to TRULY care for her sisters instead of being fake with them.

My son is my example on this.  My son is "out there".  He is who he is everywhere he goes.  So, in his school, everybody knows he's The Mormon.  He has 2 best friends in school - one is a devout Catholic, the other is a self-proclaimed Atheist (his "dad" is a woman married to his mother).  They're all in the music program...

I have to disagree. Everyone has different personalities and gifts, your son is a social butterfly and gifted at making people around him feel comfortable. You also only told us about the relationships that he has flourished in, has your son ever met resistance from a cohort? its pretty convenient to avoid people that you dont click with and take your friendship to the next person in class that is more receptive. Parakeets daughter is in a leadership position and pressured to work with 100% of the girls under her watch that all have different personalities and are obviously showing resistance.

When your son is able to have 100% of the jujitsu students and 100% of the music program students over to his house because he is such a great friend, then will your comparison be a legitimate comparison to the YW leaders situation. Or lets wait til your son is the YM leader and is able to fellowship 100% of his class members who dont have the same interests as he does.

Edited November 30, 2016 by priesthoodpower

[Jane_Doe]

On 11/29/2016 at 2:12 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

Related to the "project" idea.  My daughter is the Laurel Class president.  She and a friend are the only two active in her class, so there is a lot of pressure from the leaders for her to "fellowship" the other girls, a couple of whom come to Sacrament meeting, but not Young Womens.  My daughter is feeling frustrated because she says, "It's fake, they know it's fake.  So they say 'I'll come.' And then they don't."  

I told her she's right.  She is.  No one wants to be a "project".  My advice to her was stop trying to reactive these girls, and try just to be kind and loving toward them.  Notice something about them that you can compliment, "Hey love your new hair style."  Pay attention to anything you might have in common.  For example, they mention on Facebook that they went to a movie you also like.  Ask, "How did you like _______? I love that movie!"  Be a friend, but don't push.  Be genuine.  Let them know you care about them as a person, whether they come to church or not.  

If they are inclined to return, true friendship will hasten the process more than fake fellowshipping.  

I don't think anyone is a fan of fake fellowshipping, nor a proponent of it.

When people talk about "fellowshipping" they mean the activities you suggest here (find commonalities, be kind & loving, notice them, etc) regardless of whether or not they are coming to church.  

[anatess2]

21 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I have to disagree. Everyone has different personalities and gifts, your son is a social butterfly and gifted at making people around him feel comfortable. You also only told us about the relationships that he has flourished in, has your son ever met resistance from a cohort? its pretty convenient to avoid people that you dont click with and take your friendship to the next person in class that is more receptive. Parakeets daughter is in a leadership position and pressured to work with 100% of the girls under her watch that all have different personalities and are obviously showing resistance.

When your son is able to have 100% of the jujitsu students and 100% of the music program students over to his house because he is such a great friend, then will your comparison be a legitimate comparison to the YW leaders situation. Or lets wait til your son is the YM leader and is able to fellowship 100% of his class members who dont have the same interests as he does.

Yes, everyone has different personalities.  I have 2 sons.  The older son is not a social butterfly... he's just... like my husband.  What you see is what you get.  I'm the only social butterfly in my family.  My son does things because well... he decided to do it.  My other son is different.  He is not a social butterfly either... he inherited my IED which makes him more detached from social interactions.  .  But yes, he still does things because he decided to do it.  But, what makes them different is how they decide they want to do it.  My older son is the fixer (as described on some post on lds.net), my younger son is the "i found myself in this situation so I'm doing it" - and usually he finds himself in it because of his brother.  So, all of my younger son's friends are his older brother's.

So, how does this compare to the YM leader.  If my sons - both of them - would have been assigned to fellowship everyone - 100% of their YM membership - then they would go to each of these people and figure out what makes them tick... in the same manner that they went to each of these people they are currently hanging out with and figured out what made them tick.  Whether their interests are the same doesn't matter.  They've learned from me that what makes friendships work is not that you both agree, rather, what makes it work is that you give each other the freedom to be yourselves - You be You is one of our family motto.  And you know, this is something that they're very comfortable with because it is nothing different than how they interact with our ginormous family, a lot of whom don't even speak the same language as they do.

This is really the thing that I've taught my children as it is the way I was taught by my father who learned it from his father... and this applies to Home/Visit Teaching, Missionary opportunities, and even Marriages,  etc. etc... Love is unconditional.  We don't say... I'm only going to try to be friends with someone because we share interests, etc.  We try to be friends with someone because we're interested in what makes them tick.  Now, of course, we might want to be friends with them doesn't mean they want to be friends with us... that's just fine.  You be You.

My father... he died in 2013.  His funeral started from my uncle's house that was a few kilometers away from the Church.  Funeral attendees walked behind the hearse on its way to the Church, and some followed by car.  The hearse arrived at the Church, the coffin was carried to the altar, we sat down to wait for the service to start.  My mother wasn't at the Church yet.  She was still waiting in a car at my uncle's house waiting for the rest of the walkers to pour out of my uncle's house as they follow the hearse since all the cars lined up after the walkers.  And the whole entire way, there were people standing on the side of the road throwing flowers at the hearse.  All these people my father knew by name.  Several kilometers of them.   All these people has been touched by my father in one form or another.  And my father is not unique either.  His siblings are the same.  My siblings are also the same.  You should see my uncles in New York/New Jersey - they're my dad's cousins - they go on an impromptu dinner-out and end up booking the entire restaurant.

Man... I can't stop talking about my father (I miss him today)... he lived in the Philippines but would go visit my sister in Texas for a few months.  He would go on the public bus with his lunch in his bag and just go all over the city.  He loves to just bus-hop visiting friends, parks, golf clubs, etc.while my sister works.  So, one day, I went with him on his "travels".  So, we get on the first bus and he goes to the bus driver - "Hi Joe, this is my daughter I was telling you about...!"... then he'd see some person on the bus he met before and they'd carry a conversation... we get off that bus and go ride another bus same thing - he goes to that bus driver - "This is my daughter I was telling you about!  How's your daughter?  Did she finally graduate?"... we get on another bus and he would go, "Hey, you're new, what's your name?".  That was my father.  He can talk up a storm...

Edited November 30, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I don't think anyone is a fan of fake fellowshipping, nor a proponent of it.

When people talk about "fellowshipping" they mean the activities you suggest here (find commonalities, be kind & loving, notice them, etc) regardless of whether or not they are coming to church.  

I agree with you that no one intends to be fake. Maybe that is where the communication is failing here.  Perhaps I can say it in a different way.

First, my intention was not to criticize my daughter's YW leaders, nor was that my daughter's intention.  We both like her leaders.  The problem is she was doing what they told her to do, and it wasn't helping.  My daughter said the girls they are trying to activate called it "fake" and she felt frustrated because she knew there was truth to it in the sense that there is no real friendship there.  Keep in mind that my daughter doesn't go to school with these girls or share any other activity than church with them.  As a full-time college student with a part-time job she doesn't have a lot of socializing time.  Anyway, no criticism was intended...it was more of a "this isn't working, what can we do better."  Thus what I suggested . . . 

Of course, no one intends be fake, but if what we are doing isn't working then we need to consider why.  Let's try a different example:

I don't care for it when the High Counselor comes to our ward and says he brings the love of the Stake President.  It just doesn't feel real to me.  I can't help but think, he doesn't know me or what I am dealing with.  I mentioned this to a friend and she said, "I know what you mean, BUT I'm in the Relief Society Presidency and it's hard to explain but I really do feel a love for the sisters, even the ones I don't know well."  

I try to keep that in mind when the High Counselor delivers that message (and they always do.)   The point of this story is that the message may be sent, and it may be sincere, but sometimes it isn't received the way you intended it.

We might understand the love that we feel -- for the gospel -- that makes us want to reach out to less actives and share, and try to help them come back.  BUT  they don't have that feeling (likely don't or they would be active)...so they can't understand or feel how genuine the invitation is.  Since we can only change ourselves...then we need to try to communicate in a way that they will understand.   Thus my suggestion to my daughter to try to build more of a relationship with the girls, and not simply inviting them to church.  

Does that help?  My original comment was not intended as a criticism of anyone here or in real life, rather a bit of brainstorming about how our invitations and fellowshipping could be more effective. 

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

my suggestion to my daughter to try to build more of a relationship with the girls, and not simply inviting them to church.  

That's the key right there. There has to be authenticity to the friendship or it won't last. Worse, if they don't see authenticity they'll ignore everything you say about church. 
 

[zil]

17 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

First, my intention was not to criticize my daughter's YW leaders, nor was that my daughter's intention.  ....  As a full-time college student with a part-time job she doesn't have a lot of socializing time.

OK, now I'm confused.  YW is high school.  Your daughter is in college.  How does that work?  Did she start college a year early?  Or...?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

19 minutes ago, zil said:

OK, now I'm confused.  YW is high school.  Your daughter is in college.  How does that work?  Did she start college a year early?  Or...?

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was in a hurry. Our state is one of those that offers Running Start. Kids who can pass the entrance  test can take college classes full or part-time, and it's  paid for just as if they were in high school. So if a student is ready and motivated they can get their AA when they are 18. It's  a great program.  This is her 2nd year and she is close to her AA. (Mom brag - my daughter is my third child, all of them home-schooled, to do this.) 

Edited December 1, 2016 by LiterateParakeet
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