Some Ponderings

[An Investigator]

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

 

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

[Guest]

https://askgramps.org/eternal-progression/

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Degrees of Glory.htm

No, there is no upward mobiity between kingdoms.

As far as how much of a chance is enough of a chance?  Only the Lord knows.  And I'm glad that it is He and not I who will be making such a judgment.

Yes, other faiths also have a purpose.  That question came up recently in a discussion about the Millennium.  Other faiths will survive the Lord's coming, not just the Saints.  I'd personally believe that some very good atheists will survive.  But what are they going to be doing during the Millennium?  (idonno).

[zil]

18 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

Replying to this one separate.  Will reply to the others too.

While there is no place in scripture that explicitly says, "There is no progression between kingdoms", there are scriptures about the fall, the resurrection, judgement, glory, and exaltation which, IMO, leave no way to believe that we can progress between kingdoms.  I was studying about resurrection and immortality (extensively, for a long time, to answer another question), and reached this conclusion shortly before discovering that "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk, which lists this as one of the heresies.

I believe, based on my studies, that resurrection is not just the granting of immortality (except for the "sons of perdition"), but that it is a mixture of receiving immortality and the glory which corresponds to the law you have chosen to live (see D&C 88:29-32) - in fact, I think it is that glory which makes you immortal (and immortally of that glory, and you cannot alter that which is perfected within its sphere, thus, you cannot give up one immortality (die) to obtain another, even if it's better - if you could, you would not actually be immortal).

[zil]

31 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

Like @Carborendum, I'm glad to let the Lord decide this.  In my younger years, I had the impression that many members believe(d) that slamming the doors on the missionaries once was the same as rejecting the gospel.  I personally don't think that's true.  It doesn't fit with the Gospel as I know it.  I believe that we should not be hasty in our judgement, because this is "final judgement" reserved for the Lord.  Rather, we should do our best to share the Gospel (in all the ways that's possible, not just proselyting), and we should not "give up" on any of God's children (including ourselves), but simply continue to work for, hope for, and pray for, the very best outcomes.  Because until one is resurrected, it is not "too late" (for said "one").

[Jane_Doe]

37 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

My thoughts--

"Rejecting the Gospel" is much more than a baptized person turning away from it (let alone an investigator).  We always hope their heart will be softened later.  Rejecting the gospel is the denying of the undeniable sure witness of the Holy Ghost and majority members simply will never be in that position.   

37 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?

I 100% agree.  Some Truth is always miles better than no Truth.  I actively encourage my non-LDS friends to attend their respective churches and talk about things there with them.  I have also have visited and attended each of their churches as a way of showing my encouragement.  

Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

For the most part yes.

37 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

Note: theologians do not dictate LDS doctrine, God does.  And at points His wisdom confounds our wise.

During this life and the time before the Final Judgement there is progression- not between the actual kingdoms, but between the mindsets.  After the Final Judgement not there is no change (hence the "Final" Judgement).

 

 

[zil]

36 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

I believe the Spirit testifies of all truth, and that all truth will bring one closer to God (bit by bit).  I believe that there is truth to be found pretty much everywhere (though it's not necessarily easy to recognize or distinguish from well-crafted lies).  I believe that all people who choose to live a Celestial law, and continue to live that law (including receiving ordinances) will live in the Celestial Kingdom, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof) in mortality.  (I don't think one has to know what the Celestial Kingdom is to live a portion of its law - every time someone performs an act of selfless service, they are living the Celestial law.)

The Philosophies of Zil, chapter 8: Celestial people have been Celestial people for all eternity (we are all the same yesterday, today, and forever), and thus, have been working in that direction forever, and will continue that way until they reach the full glory of that kingdom, after which they'll live Celestial lives forever.  In the meantime, they're just "in progress".  I believe that such people are attracted to light, goodness, truth.  Thus, if they find these things anywhere, they will embrace them (churches, clubs, friends, family, books, etc.).  Those who continue to search for more truth (rather than being satisfied that they've found "enough"), will eventually find their way to all truth (aka the Celestial Kingdom).  Those who become satisfied with "enough" will remain in a lower kingdom, having found what they wanted.  (And they too have always been that sort of person, and always will be.)

That may sound contrary to agency, but I assure you it isn't.  It is the natural consequence of exercising agency.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, An Investigator said:

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it.

Everyone has the light of Christ. Everyone can choose to extinguish that light or consciously turn away from it. That is not a thing limited to Saints and angels.

2 hours ago, An Investigator said:

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?

I am very uncomfortable with this idea. I do believe that any sincere person who seeks after God is approved of God, at least insofar as he seeks. If that seeking leads him to a sectarian faith, I believe he is blessed for that as far as he can be. I think that other faiths may thus serve a divine purpose. But I do not believe that God tells people to embrace falsehood, only truth. Therefore, I do not believe that God would inspire a person to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ as carried by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and instead join another body. I do believe that people's abilities and sensitivities change and grow (or diminish), and that a person who before was not ready to hear God's voice might become ready later.

2 hours ago, An Investigator said:

Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison?

We have no possible way to judge such things. I do believe that more Latter-day Saints will receive the blessings of exaltation than those who are not -- else why be a member of the Church at all? It is my opinion that a minority of mankind will receive exaltation, based on Christ's teaching that the way is strait and narrow, and few find it. Since I have no way to quantify "devoutness", I can't answer your question even with an opinion.

2 hours ago, An Investigator said:

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that?

This is false doctrine, period. I do not know whether or not it is true -- I strongly suspect it is not -- but it most certainly is not the teachings of the Church. I would urge you or anyone else to reject this doctrine as a dangerous, Mormon-oriented version of "Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

[An Investigator]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

This is false doctrine, period. I do not know whether or not it is true -- I strongly suspect it is not -- but it most certainly is not the teachings of the Church. I would urge you or anyone else to reject this doctrine as a dangerous, Mormon-oriented version of "Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

I just find it really interesting,  as someone who is a new member of the Church and is educated to degree level,  I find theology fascinating.   I didn't say I believed it, just that I find the concept intriguing..  I think it's good to look at opposing view points as it helps strengthen your own faith.  I think that labeling things as Dangerous isn't helpful, why should I be afraid of differences of opinion? 

 

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

Everyone has the light of Christ. Everyone can choose to extinguish that light or consciously turn away from it. That is not a thing limited to Saints and angels.

I am very uncomfortable with this idea. I do believe that any sincere person who seeks after God is approved of God, at least insofar as he seeks. If that seeking leads him to a sectarian faith, I believe he is blessed for that as far as he can be. I think that other faiths may thus serve a divine purpose. But I do not believe that God tells people to embrace falsehood, only truth. Therefore, I do not believe that God would inspire a person to reject the gospel of Jesus Christ as carried by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and instead join another body. I do believe that people's abilities and sensitivities change and grow (or diminish), and that a person who before was not ready to hear God's voice might become ready later

I think we both mean the same thing,  I meant that an alcoholic who becomes a Muslim has been set on a right path to prepare them for the Gospel. 

[An Investigator]

2 hours ago, zil said:

I believe the Spirit testifies of all truth, and that all truth will bring one closer to God (bit by bit).  I believe that there is truth to be found pretty much everywhere (though it's not necessarily easy to recognize or distinguish from well-crafted lies).  I believe that all people who choose to live a Celestial law, and continue to live that law (including receiving ordinances) will live in the Celestial Kingdom, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof) in mortality.  (I don't think one has to know what the Celestial Kingdom is to live a portion of its law - every time someone performs an act of selfless service, they are living the Celestial law.)

The Philosophies of Zil, chapter 8: Celestial people have been Celestial people for all eternity (we are all the same yesterday, today, and forever), and thus, have been working in that direction forever, and will continue that way until they reach the full glory of that kingdom, after which they'll live Celestial lives forever.  In the meantime, they're just "in progress".  I believe that such people are attracted to light, goodness, truth.  Thus, if they find these things anywhere, they will embrace them (churches, clubs, friends, family, books, etc.).  Those who continue to search for more truth (rather than being satisfied that they've found "enough"), will eventually find their way to all truth (aka the Celestial Kingdom).  Those who become satisfied with "enough" will remain in a lower kingdom, having found what they wanted.  (And they too have always been that sort of person, and always will be.)

That may sound contrary to agency, but I assure you it isn't.  It is the natural consequence of exercising agency.

I really like this explanation thanks 

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

I think that labeling things as Dangerous isn't helpful, why should I be afraid of differences of opinion?

Let's consider an extreme example: Murder is an effective way to get money. Is it permissible to reject this idea out of hand as dangerous, regardless of whether or not it's true? Or shall we say that we are not afraid of differences of opinion, so go ahead and consider the possibility that murder is in fact a good path to riches?

Dangerous things are those things which lead to an evil end. Nowhere in scripture is it taught or even hinted at that we don't need to worry about being celestial, because we'll have all eternity to achieve those things. We are taught the polar opposite: THIS life is the time to prepare to meet God. Our actions have ETERNAL consequences.

Yes, the idea of "progression between kingdoms" is a dangerous one, even if you're open-minded and unafraid of differences of opinion. It leads to a cavalier attitude of "play now, pay later". I personally know more than a few people who have fallen into this trap and embraced this falsehood. I hope they get past it, and I hope that happens sooner rather than later. But in any case, it is a dangerous idea and should be rejected.

[zil]

Generic comments...  In my experience, when talking about doctrine, @Vort gives good advice / opinions that are worth careful consideration, even if one doesn't like them.  I don't disagree with anything he's written here.

Regarding "dangerous" ideas...  Back when "Ordain Women" was getting lots of press (or the first time I noticed this phenomenon), I decided to go to the source (their website) to see whether the press were giving an accurate description of this group.  I typed in the URL, and the instant the home page loaded, the Spirit told me in no uncertain terms that I was in a dangerous place.  (I find it interesting to note that this warning did not come until the home page was loaded.)  I am 100% certain that this was direct revelation from the Spirit, as powerful as any I've felt.  The Spirit did not tell me to "leave now", rather, that I was in a dangerous place, where lies were told with skill for the purpose of deceiving those who were vulnerable.  I browsed around enough to spot what was, to me, clearly a mechanism meant to deceive (it wasn't that they were confused and teaching what they believed; no, they were intending to deceive others*).  That was sufficient for me, and I left.  I was later able to use this experience to help a friend who was struggling not with wanting to join them, but with some ideas they voiced and with her friends who were either joining or considering it.

* I later learned that Kate Kelly was a lawyer and thought, "Ah, yes, I see."

So, there are indeed dangerous ideas.  I don't doubt many have been deceived by dangerous ideas because they didn't understand the truth sufficient to recognize the danger and put the idea in its proper place.  Some have been led to the truth by people going to extremes trying to disprove it.  Others have been led away from it by skillful liars speaking flattering words about dangerous ideas.

To put it another way, I don't need to dig around in the guts of evil to know it's evil.  Once I have identified it for what it is, I'm better off moving away from it lest I become numbed to its horror, fascinated by its depth or details, or spend so much time exploring it that the Spirit can no longer reach me, and soon I start to excuse away the evil, and then join it.  This has happened over and over throughout history, to individuals and societies.

Edited December 21, 2016 by zil

[An Investigator]

25 minutes ago, zil said:

Generic comments...  In my experience, when talking about doctrine, @Vort gives good advice / opinions that are worth careful consideration, even if one doesn't like them.  I don't disagree with anything he's written here.

Regarding "dangerous" ideas...  Back when "Ordain Women" was getting lots of press (or the first time I noticed this phenomenon), I decided to go to the source (their website) to see whether the press were giving an accurate description of this group.  I typed in the URL, and the instant the home page loaded, the Spirit told me in no uncertain terms that I was in a dangerous place.  (I find it interesting to note that this warning did not come until the home page was loaded.)  I am 100% certain that this was direct revelation from the Spirit, as powerful as any I've felt.  The Spirit did not tell me to "leave now", rather, that I was in a dangerous place, where lies were told with skill for the purpose of deceiving those who were vulnerable.  I browsed around enough to spot what was, to me, clearly a mechanism meant to deceive (it wasn't that they were confused and teaching what they believed; no, they were intending to deceive others*).  That was sufficient for me, and I left.  I was later able to use this experience to help a friend who was struggling not with wanting to join them, but with some ideas they voiced and with her friends who were either joining or considering it.

* I later learned that Kate Kelly was a lawyer and thought, "Ah, yes, I see."

So, there are indeed dangerous ideas.  I don't doubt many have been deceived by dangerous ideas because they didn't understand the truth sufficient to recognize the danger and put the idea in its proper place.  Some have been led to the truth by people going to extremes trying to disprove it.  Others have been led away from it by skillful liars speaking flattering words about dangerous ideas.

To put it another way, I don't need to dig around in the guts of evil to know it's evil.  Once I have identified it for what it is, I'm better off moving away from it lest I become numbed to its horror, fascinated by its depth or details, or spend so much time exploring it that the Spirit can no longer reach me, and soon I start to excuse away the evil, and then join it.  This has happened over and over throughout history, to individuals and societies.

I just really liked the thought of it with my husband not being a member,  I dunno if I feel that way to be honest,  I have studied alot of religious philosophy and theology,  I even used to be a church Warden.   Maybe I should just keep my liberal studying to myself, I really don't see any danger, sorry!  

But thank you all for the replies 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Vort said:

I would urge you or anyone else to reject this doctrine as a dangerous, Mormon-oriented version of "Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God..."

43 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

I think it's good to look at opposing view points as it helps strengthen your own faith.  I think that labeling things as Dangerous isn't helpful, why should I be afraid of differences of opinion? 

11 minutes ago, zil said:

the Spirit told me in no uncertain terms that I was in a dangerous place.  (I find it interesting to note that this warning did not come until the home page was loaded.)  I am 100% certain that this was direct revelation from the Spirit, as powerful as any I've felt.  The Spirit did not tell me to "leave now", rather, that I was in a dangerous place, where lies were told with skill for the purpose of deceiving those who were vulnerable.

I hope this series of highlights are self-explanatory.  But I just like putting things like this together.  So, I guess I will.

An idea can be dangerous -- just as dangerous as a snake pit.  There is nothing wrong with labeling a snake pit as dangerous.  And there is much benefit to labeling it as such. 

Listening to differences of opinion for the sake of academic knowledge and discussion is one thing.  To delve into a false doctrine with hope because of our good, but very mortal, motivations is quite another.  And as Zil expressed, some of these places are not about differences of opinion.  They know what they're doing.  And they are trying to deceive.

Part of listening to the Spirit is having the willingness to give up what we want in favor of what God wants.  It means giving up our own expectations and desires and receive the will of the Lord into our own hearts.  When we do that, we are a fertile ground for the Spirit to plant seeds in our souls.  So, whenever looking at a new doctrine, always run it through this filter.

[An Investigator]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I hope this series of highlights are self-explanatory.  But I just like putting things like this together.  So, I guess I will.

An idea can be dangerous -- just as dangerous as a snake pit.  There is nothing wrong with labeling a snake pit as dangerous.  And there is much benefit to labeling it as such. 

Listening to differences of opinion for the sake of academic knowledge and discussion is one thing.  To delve into a false doctrine with hope because of our good, but very mortal, motivations is quite another.  And as Zil expressed, some of these places are not about differences of opinion.  They know what they're doing.  And they are trying to deceive.

Part of listening to the Spirit is having the willingness to give up what we want in favor of what God wants.  It means giving up our own expectations and desires and receive the will of the Lord into our own hearts.  When we do that, we are a fertile ground for the Spirit to plant seeds in our souls.  So, whenever looking at a new doctrine, always run it through this filter.

Thank you.  You have given me alot to think about 

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

 

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

People will continue to receive as many opportunities to accept the gospel on earth and in the spirit prison up to some point in the millennium before final judgment. Read D&C 138.

Progress between kingdoms? Thats exactly what we are doing right now. We are now in the Telestial kingdom and we will progress from this to the Terrestrial kingdom at the start of the millennium. Then, after the 1000 years are ended those found on the right hand of God will progress into the Celestial kingdom. This is the pattern and teaching of the temple endowment.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Rob Osborn

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

People will continue to receive as many opportunities to accept the gospel up to some point in the millennium before final judgment. Read D&C 138.

Progress between kingdoms? Thats exactly what we are doing right now. We are now in the Telestial kingdom and we will progress from this to the Terrestrial kingdom at the start of the millennium. Then, after the 1000 years are ended those found on the right hand of God will progress into the Celestial kingdom. This is the pattern and teaching of the temple endowment.

I disagree.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

I just really liked the thought of it with my husband not being a member,  I dunno if I feel that way to be honest,  I have studied alot of religious philosophy and theology,  I even used to be a church Warden.   Maybe I should just keep my liberal studying to myself, I really don't see any danger, sorry!  

I think we have a communication gap here, AI. I was not trying to beat you down, not in any way. I was responding very literally to your invitation for opinions. I gave mine. I wasn't trying to tell you that you were naughty for even asking such a thing. You aren't. To use Carb's example, I consider the idea of "progression between kingdoms" to be a snake pit, and I was labeling it as such.

As for the state of your husband, I cannot judge such a thing. A great many good, honorable people will never join the Church. I daresay many of them will never even hear of the Church. But I am quite comfortable in my knowledge that those people who sincerely seek after God and his truths will eventually find what they're looking for. Always.

So yes, your husband must repent and come unto Jesus, just like all the rest of us. But we are in no position to judge when and how that must happen. My opinion on that topic is that you shouldn't worry too much about it. Just love your husband and keep being a good example.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I disagree.

The endowment starts in the telestial room which symbolises 5he world we now live in. It is thus further explained that the world we now live in is the Telestial kingdom. From that room we progress or are admitted into the Terrestrial kingdom and then from there through the veil and admitted into the Celestial kingdom. That is the endowment as explained.

[An Investigator]

44 minutes ago, Vort said:

I think we have a communication gap here, AI. I was not trying to beat you down, not in any way. I was responding very literally to your invitation for opinions. I gave mine. I wasn't trying to tell you that you were naughty for even asking such a thing. You aren't. To use Carb's example, I consider the idea of "progression between kingdoms" to be a snake pit, and I was labeling it as such.

As for the state of your husband, I cannot judge such a thing. A great many good, honorable people will never join the Church. I daresay many of them will never even hear of the Church. But I am quite comfortable in my knowledge that those people who sincerely seek after God and his truths will eventually find what they're looking for. Always.

So yes, your husband must repent and come unto Jesus, just like all the rest of us. But we are in no position to judge when and how that must happen. My opinion on that topic is that you shouldn't worry too much about it. Just love your husband and keep being a good example.

No its I that should apologise,  I just find it so difficult sometimes that my lovely husband who practically lives as a member won't join the Church,  frustrating that he can't see the truth.    I suppose here in lies the danger,  I'm sure there are a plethora of organisations/ religions willing to give me what I want to hear rather than what is true.

Changed it so it made more sense 

Edited December 21, 2016 by An Investigator

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

No its I that should apologise,  I just find it so difficult sometimes that my lovely husband who practically lives as a member won't join the Church,  frustrating that he can't see the truth.    I suppose here in lies the danger,  I'm sure there are a plethora of organisations willing to assure me I can have what I want rather then trusting in God.   

Be patient. Your husband will more than likely join the church of the firstborn, either here or in the next life and all will work out.

[zil]

15 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

No its I that should apologise,  I just find it so difficult sometimes that my lovely husband who practically lives as a member won't join the Church,  frustrating that he can't see the truth.    I suppose here in lies the danger,  I'm sure there are a plethora of organisations willing to assure me I can have what I want rather then trusting in God.   

It hasn't even been a year.  In the eternal scheme of things, that's nothing.  Be patient with him as God is with you.  The difference between you and your husband, from God's point of view, is probably microscopic.  Don't let your impatience lead both of you away.

I'm not sure what organizations you're referring to, but if what you want is an eternal family, then they're wrong, so trust God.

[An Investigator]

17 minutes ago, zil said:

It hasn't even been a year.  In the eternal scheme of things, that's nothing.  Be patient with him as God is with you.  The difference between you and your husband, from God's point of view, is probably microscopic.  Don't let your impatience lead both of you away.

I'm not sure what organizations you're referring to, but if what you want is an eternal family, then they're wrong, so trust God.

Yes they Are!! Thanks you guys are great 

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, An Investigator said:

No its I that should apologise,  I just find it so difficult sometimes that my lovely husband who practically lives as a member won't join the Church,  frustrating that he can't see the truth.    I suppose here in lies the danger,  I'm sure there are a plethora of organisations/ religions willing to give me what I want to hear rather than what is true.

Changed it so it made more sense 

My husband is also not a member.  We've been together 6 years, and friends for 16.  For 10+ years he's lived the LDS lifestyle as far as WoW, no premarital/extramarital sex, clean conduct and word choice, believes in God, honest, caring etc.  He's been to church with me ~20 times.  

But despite this he has zero interest in joining the LDS church and doesn't really understand even the basics of the Gospel (zero interest and family complications impeding).  Despite our +15 years of friendship, I don't think he remotely has lost his chance to understand and embrace the Gospel.  It just hasn't been his time to embrace it yet, and I am patiently awaiting for the God appointed time. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

 

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

I think rejection (like acceptance) can be mild or strong and a matter of degree. People get baptized and still accept and reject some aspects of the Gospel to some degree. The hope is to progress and repent throughout mortality. I take mortality to include everything up to the resurrection and judgement, so that would include life in the spirit world.

I think “second chance” is a poor description of progress in the spirit world since it is but a continuation of this world, “for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.”

I think the light of Christ calls people to whatever light they have found to be available to them, or that they have prepared themselves to receive, and that would include the light that is found in other faiths. They will continue to progress in the spirit world where the fullness of the Gospel is available to all for all to receive, and will ultimately be judged accordingly, “for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.”

I don’t concern myself with questions of progress after the resurrection, “for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” Every child of God is responsible for finding, keeping and gaining more of the light he has available to him. and not judging others.

[Anddenex]

On 12/21/2016 at 8:08 AM, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

 

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel? I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

As to my current level of understanding there are a few forms of rejection that a person needs to consider: rejecting the Lord's servants, rejecting a witness given from the Spirit as one hears the servants of the Lord speak, or at some point was taught and the Spirit is reaching out (the concept of being called and not listening -- think of the story of Amulek in the Book of Mormon), and rejecting the gospel with knowledge (Satan and his minions).

The first two forms of rejection stem from faith (not a perfect knowledge but some knowledge given), while the third is rejecting the light and you know it. Anytime though in our life when we reject truth, we hurt ourselves (our spirit). All these forms are rejections with varying degrees of consequences from our Father in heaven.

When ever a servant of the Lord speaks, a witness from the spirit will be given, and ultimately when we reject the spirit either from becoming "past feeling" or through hearing feeling the witness and then rejecting it -- this is rejecting the gospel.

The second chance notion is intriguing int he gospel because we really only have one chance even in death (so to speak). All things are present before the Lord, and the Lord knows when a person fully has rejected light and truth, and when a person has not rejected light and truth (Doctrine and Covenant 93:31, "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.") If a person would have accepted the gospel, when taught and the spirit witnesses truth, then that person will not loose his/her reward in the after life, even after death. This verse also gives evidence to the concept of "rejecting" the gospel.

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

Now this question is a question that we must be careful not to deceive ourselves in believing something that might cause suffering in the next life. Our passions, our appetites, our beliefs do not change when we die. We will carry with us the same spirit, the same countenance, we had in life in death. This concept correlates with the notion of people who would have accepted the gospel in this life, assuming the appropriate witness given, will accept it in the next life also. Those who did not accept the gospel, despite knowledge and witness, will reject it also in the next life.

True, you were called into this Church. God is currently trying to reach all of his children (many are called but few are chosen). Yes, I believe the idea of people being called to other faiths to prepare them for the truth is real; however, as with any of us, if they do not continue in humility then they will reject further light and truth when it is given. They key though is humility and a total desire to honor God, not ourselves; otherwise people will reject light and truth when given even though the Lord was leading them along a path to accept light and truth, a further light and truth.

Yes, this is one I personally believe as long as the individual didn't reject the gospel in this life. There are plenty of good, honest, members of other faiths who are seeking the truth but know not where to find it. If they die, before being able to receive this truth, and would have accepted this truth when preached to them, they indeed will not loose their reward. The principle remains the same.

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

This is false doctrine. If not, this would have to account the concept of "this time is a time to prepare to meet God," and other scriptures that specify the need to not delay repentance during our days of probation and then judgement comes -- judgement which is eternal. This also, then gives the adversary to lay thoughts in people's minds to delay their repentance because they can repent in the afterlife (even if it is a long time until you become like God, but remember you live forever, so it really doesn't matter).

Elder Bruce R. McConkie, talks about some heresies of the gospel and these are his words, "Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared."

As to my current knowledge and level of understanding of gospel principles, Elder McConkie is correct.