Church Culture

[An Investigator]

I have been thinking for some time about Church culture,  here in the UK we are quite laid back from what I can gather compared to places with higher concentrations of Lds.  I am an educated lady, married to a Buddhist who studied feminism at uni and is a member of the Labour party in the UK.   I find myself thinking would I have been welcome in the Church anywhere else? Would I have been able to fit in and if not do you think the Church culture is a barrier to Convert retention?  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

It seems the Lord planted you in the right place, then.    I'm partially teasing.  My hope is that you would be loved and accepted anywhere, but my experience is more a long the lines that some areas have more difficulty accepting people who are different than others.  For example, in small towns/communities they tend to be very similar in political beliefs, hobbies, etc, and they struggle to accept outsiders or anyone who is different.  Cities tend to have greater diversity (in politics, culture, hobbies, even nationalities, and the people become accustomed to that so it is easier for them to embrace those who are different.   

Another question for you to consider is how comfortable would you be if you moved to a place (let's say a small town) where the people there all shared the same political affiliation, and had never met a Buddhist, the majority feels feminism is a bad thing . . . even if they accepted you, you would likely feel a bit out of place.  Who wants to be the resident minority, right?  There are some places that I don't think I would feel comfortable either.  

All that said, I think you would fit in great in my area.  (I live near a large city, and so the people here are accustomed to diversity.)  In my ward, we have people with different political affiliations, Feminists, etc.  So they would love you and not bat an eye.  

[zil]

Many who have been in the church for a long time have a difficult time distinguishing between culture, tradition, and doctrine.  I expect it's because of how different we are from so many around us (at least externally).  I would hope you would be welcomed in many places.  I expect you would have overcome it even if you weren't.  That said, I think everyone in the church should spend more time pondering this statement by Harold B. Lee (emphasis mine):

Quote

Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through His prophet, “as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5). There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:6).

Sometimes, our non-Gospel convictions, culture, traditions, politics, etc. need to be overcome for the sake of more-fully embracing the Gospel and following the leadership of the church.  For many (if not all), that can be a hard thing; but I am certain that those who cannot do this will, sooner or later, fall away when the "offense" is great enough (the next policy, the next leadership change, the next calling extended, etc.).  IMO, this is one reason why many messages from our leaders have focused on deepening conversion - to strengthen us in preparation for whatever trials will come.

[bytebear]

Well, this opens up a whole can of worms when you talk about church culture vs say Utah culture, which also has BYU culture, Provo Culture vs Salt Lake culture.  Go Utes!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, An Investigator said:

I have been thinking for some time about Church culture,  here in the UK we are quite laid back from what I can gather compared to places with higher concentrations of Lds.  I am an educated lady, married to a Buddhist who studied feminism at uni and is a member of the Labour party in the UK.   I find myself thinking would I have been welcome in the Church anywhere else? Would I have been able to fit in and if not do you think the Church culture is a barrier to Convert retention?  

From my experience, I think our ability to be accepted in another culture (in this case, LDS community customs and mores as expressed within a larger society other than our own) depends on our interpersonal skills, spiritual power (humility and charity) and our own tolerance level.

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, An Investigator said:

I find myself thinking would I have been welcome in the Church anywhere else? Would I have been able to fit in and if not do you think the Church culture is a barrier to Convert retention?  

It's not really a church culture you could run into problems living somewhere else, but that area's culture (area is not the same thing as the church).  Some areas a person would have a hard time fitting in (this doesn't just apply to church).  For example, I visited San Fransisco recently and I don't fit into that culture at all ( way too crowded!!!) 

3 hours ago, An Investigator said:

 Would I have been able to fit in and if not do you think the Church culture is a barrier to Convert retention?  

It can be, in regards to things getting used to a culture who's idea of hanging out doesn't involve beer.  

 

[Guest]

I don't see the value in just complaining about a culture you're not happy with. If you don't like it, do what you can to change it. Does it bug you that your LDS neighbors only socialize with LDS people? Invite them over to mingle with some of your friends of other denominations. Do you hate that the ward social functions are always the same? Volunteer to head one up, and plan something appropriate that you would enjoy. Do you feel like your HT/VT's treat you like a number to be checked off? Show interest in them and their families, care about them, and make them your friends. Then go and do the same with the people on your route. 

Complaining without being a solution is just whining. 

/rant

[An Investigator]

50 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I don't see the value in just complaining about a culture you're not happy with. If you don't like it, do what you can to change it. Does it bug you that your LDS neighbors only socialize with LDS people? Invite them over to mingle with some of your friends of other denominations. Do you hate that the ward social functions are always the same? Volunteer to head one up, and plan something appropriate that you would enjoy. Do you feel like your HT/VT's treat you like a number to be checked off? Show interest in them and their families, care about them, and make them your friends. Then go and do the same with the people on your route. 

Complaining without being a solution is just whining. 

/rant

im not complaining. I have just read things which suggests that the Church culture in other places is different.   I love my ward.  I have loads of friends and people love my teaching as I can think outside of the box, give them new perspectives to consider I'm fairly easy going too so I like to think I would fit in anywhere. And people have said I've been a blessing for the ward.   One of my friends actually got up in f and t meeting and said she had been praying because she was lonely then I joined the ward.  

I have been offended though, mostly by older people in the ward sticking there beaks in my marriage.   meh, I'm here to worship God so I've got over it.  

I think you have mis understood what I mean.  I just find the fact that the Church is very different in America interesting.

Edited December 30, 2016 by An Investigator

[Guest]

Sorry @An Investigator, my comment was a general one, not directed at you personally.

[Unity]

11 hours ago, An Investigator said:

I have been thinking for some time about Church culture,  here in the UK we are quite laid back from what I can gather compared to places with higher concentrations of Lds.  I am an educated lady, married to a Buddhist who studied feminism at uni and is a member of the Labour party in the UK.   I find myself thinking would I have been welcome in the Church anywhere else? Would I have been able to fit in and if not do you think the Church culture is a barrier to Convert retention?  

Hi there - glad you love your ward and have made some great friends in the church. As you've discovered in your own cultural context, in any ward or branch there are always church members who don't fit the mold of the homogeneous 'Utah Mormon' stereotype. I live in Australia and attend a predominantly Polynesian ward and Stake - 'church culture' for all of us can mean very different things but what really matters is that we are united in the teachings of the gospel (not those of a particular ward or culture). I've also lived in the USA and attended church in a few states - and I can honestly say that no matter where you go in the world, we are a diverse bunch of people from all kinds of social and cultural backgrounds just trying to do the best we can.

From what you've said about yourself, if you had converted in Australia you would have been welcolme in the Church here - generally speaking the members here are very accepting (although unfortunately there are always exceptions to this rule).

I'm a bit curious though - do you think that being an 'educated lady' with feminist leanings who is a member of the Labour Party makes you an exception in 'church culture' or just in the culture of your particular ward? 

[askandanswer]

From a colonial perspective

Educated – Great

Female – Most welcome

Non-member Buddhist husband – Step right in

British – GET OUT OF HERE!!! No way. Never!  ##&@!&@!&@* off! No POMS allowed

(just teasing)

We even have a few Americans in our ward, that's how open and accepting we are.  

[zil]

To add to what @Eowyn said (which gets a big, fat AMEN from me), I know she wasn't reacting to your post, @An Investigator, but rather to the inordinate number of members who do this kind of thing - it borders on the ridiculous.  Sometimes, I want to scream an obnoxious reminder about how they have agency and aren't infants and ought to go make "it" better if they don't like how "it" is instead of whining about how no one else is making "it" better....  /sharedRant  

[An Investigator]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

From my experience, I think our ability to be accepted in another culture (in this case, LDS community customs and mores as expressed within a larger society other than our own) depends on our interpersonal skills, spiritual power (humility and charity) and our own tolerance level.

A very good point,  I think if your the type of person who looks for similarities rather then differences you can make friends with anyone.. With a bit of perseverance.

[zil]

4 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

A very good point,  I think if your the type of person who looks for similarities rather then differences you can make friends with anyone.. With a bit of perseverance.

Just not with a bit of perverseness - not among most Mormons anyway...

[An Investigator]

15 hours ago, zil said:

Many who have been in the church for a long time have a difficult time distinguishing between culture, tradition, and doctrine.  I expect it's because of how different we are from so many around us (at least externally).  I would hope you would be welcomed in many places.  I expect you would have overcome it even if you weren't.  That said, I think everyone in the church should spend more time pondering this statement by Harold B. Lee (emphasis mine):

Sometimes, our non-Gospel convictions, culture, traditions, politics, etc. need to be overcome for the sake of more-fully embracing the Gospel and following the leadership of the church.  For many (if not all), that can be a hard thing; but I am certain that those who cannot do this will, sooner or later, fall away when the "offense" is great enough (the next policy, the next leadership change, the next calling extended, etc.).  IMO, this is one reason why many messages from our leaders have focused on deepening conversion - to strengthen us in preparation for whatever trials will come.

I really like this, certainly one must be cautious of pride.   In the institute manual for the Book of Mormon it describes babylon the great as any belief system which interferes with God.  In fact I believe with certain things Satan actually makes some beliefs very close to the Gospel for that very purpose.   in example the law of consecration and communism.

[An Investigator]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

Just not with a bit of perverseness - not among most Mormons anyway...

Hahaha I thought I had spelt it wrong for a moment there!! Mummy brain (well that's my excuse anyway!!)  

Edited December 30, 2016 by An Investigator

[zil]

6 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

Hahaha I thought I had spelt it wrong for a moment there!! Mummy brain (well that's my excuse anyway!!)  

I knew exactly what you wrote, but immediately recognized the similar size and shape of the two words, and thought we needed some perverse fun...

[estradling75]

On the subject of subject of wards not always being what we want...

 

We recently moved... as part of this process we had to find a new place to live and my wife and I spent alot of time prayerfully pondering where we should live that would be best for our family.  One of the things we were wanting was a strong Young Men's program (we have 3 sons).  In our last ward our sons were the program (more or less) and we wanted more.

In time our prayers and pondering was answered and we knew exactly where the Lord wanted us and he opened the doors to make it happen.  Everything fell in to place except the Young Man's program, it was only a little bit bigger.  Given how (sometimes miraculously) all the other things fell into place I spent some time why this particular part did not.

Then while talking and getting to know the bishop, young men and other ward leaders, a phrase kept repeating itself.. "We have been praying for more young men to help strengthen our program."   Then it clicked... Sometimes you get your prayers answered... sometimes you are an answer to prayer.

 

Or to put it in more generic form... Sometimes the ward gives you what you need... sometimes you are what the ward needs.

Edited December 30, 2016 by estradling75

[Guest MormonGator]

Speaking as a convert, it depends on the ward. Some wards in cities are more welcoming to people who don't look like traditional LDS while some wards in the country who have older members are not. I speak from firsthand experience. 

The majority of lifelong LDS are incredibly tolerant and welcoming but like any other group, you'll always find members (and sometimes full wards) that are full of cliques, standoffish, unwelcoming or just plain rude. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by MormonGator

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

A very good point,  I think if your the type of person who looks for similarities rather then differences you can make friends with anyone.. With a bit of perseverance.

Speaking of similarities, ever notice how every branch/ward has the same basic cast of characters? Almost like  sit-com formula.

[An Investigator]

16 hours ago, zil said:

4 hours ago, Unity said:

Hi there - glad you love your ward and have made some great friends in the church. As you've discovered in your own cultural context, in any ward or branch there are always church members who don't fit the mold of the homogeneous 'Utah Mormon' stereotype. I live in Australia and attend a predominantly Polynesian ward and Stake - 'church culture' for all of us can mean very different things but what really matters is that we are united in the teachings of the gospel (not those of a particular ward or culture). I've also lived in the USA and attended church in a few states - and I can honestly say that no matter where you go in the world, we are a diverse bunch of people from all kinds of social and cultural backgrounds just trying to do the best we can.

From what you've said about yourself, if you had converted in Australia you would have been welcolme in the Church here - generally speaking the members here are very accepting (although unfortunately there are always exceptions to this rule).

I'm a bit curious though - do you think that being an 'educated lady' with feminist leanings who is a member of the Labour Party makes you an exception in 'church culture' or just in the culture of your particular ward? 

Im certainly not an exception in my ward as far as being educated goes, there are quite a few nurses etc in my RS.   I think I'm an exception politically and although I teach RS, based on the answers people give in lessons I am probably alot more liberal then some with my ideas or conclusions I get from the material.

I have some groups on Facebook (faith promoting ones) where the majority are from Utah and it seems like a completely different way of life so I'm just curious. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by An Investigator

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

Im certainly not an exception in my ward as far as being educated goes, there are quite a few nurses etc in my RS.   I think I'm an exception politically and although I teach RS, based on the answers people give in lessons I am probably alot more liberal then some with my ideas of who God is and how loving he is rather then a strict victorian parent.  I also got alot of people spamming me on fb when we had an EU referendum as I voted to stay in, had people look down on me because my kids go In childcare and I work...the usual conservative stuff..  Nothing I can't handle or is out of the norm in any Church tbh.   

I have some groups on Facebook (faith promoting ones) where the majority are from Utah and it seems like a completely different way of life so I'm just curious. 

I know what you mean about differing politically than the majority of LDS. I'm in the ACLU, I'm pro gay marriage, and I think abortion should be legal in some cases (reservations with minors and late term) . So I also differ from LDS. The good news is that in my old ward, there were people who made me look like Margaret Thatcher, so liberals are certainly welcome in the church. It's tough sometimes because we (liberals and non-conservatives) are in the minority and sometimes are looked at as not having a strong testimony in the church but that way of thinking is ending as the generations change. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by MormonGator

[An Investigator]

Made me look like Margaret Thatcher... Did you steal the milk at a family fun day? @MormonGator

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, An Investigator said:

Made me look like Margaret Thatcher... Did you steal the milk at a family fun day? @MormonGator

No but I survived a bombing from the IRA and I was taken down by the moderates in my own party, but anyway. 

[Vort]

6 hours ago, Unity said:

do you think that being an 'educated lady' with feminist leanings who is a member of the Labour Party

If I understand her correctly, @An Investigator was saying that her husband was a feminist-studying Buddhist and member of the Labour Party. We wouldn't think of discriminating against a woman whose husband was those awful things.