Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[Guest]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

You missed the point.

I got the point originally.  But then you started changing your point. It's kind of hard to hit a moving target.

[lostinwater]

Just now, Carborendum said:

On the one hand, I find this study fascinating.  And I can understand the one conclusion (that elimination of the testes would increase female fertility).  But the other conclusion that they have a genetic predisposition to male offspring?  That is correlation without causation.  What would be the mechanism by which that would happen?

On the other hand, if your friend is not like this, I fail to see what this has to do with your case.

Valid point.  i guess it's just something i point to to refute the idea that there is no time when the body and the spirit conflict.  Assuming we agree that there are not ambiguously gendered spirits - then a person classifying someone's feelings of conflict as being wrong becomes a 'i don't see it, so it doesn't exist' judgement call.  

i'm not saying that all people who have the feelings are correct in their interpretation of their correctness.  But i'm also saying that to carte blanche classify them as sinful and wrong is also not right.  

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Don't you think that might have more to do with (1) the societal mores of the time and (2) the specific individuals assigned to that period than with the righteousness and/or parenting techniques of the parents?

The reason why we wont have this problem in the millennium is because bad parenting, pornography, sexual deviancy will be done away with. It is that very reason  we will be raising children with no gender or sexual identity problems at that time. Satan is bound during that time because of the righteousness of the saints on the earth.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I got the point originally.  But then you started changing your point. It's kind of hard to hit a moving target.

Strong families with obedient children do not have sexual or gender identity problems. I will leave it at that.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Valid point.  i guess it's just something i point to to refute the idea that there is no time when the body and the spirit conflict.  Assuming we agree that there are not ambiguously gendered spirits - then a person classifying someone's feelings of conflict as being wrong becomes a 'i don't see it, so it doesn't exist' judgement call.  

i'm not saying that all people who have the feelings are correct in their interpretation of their correctness.  But i'm also saying that to carte blanche classify them as sinful and wrong is also not right.  

The Church has taken a strong stand against homosexual behavior.  But did you see the "timid by comparison" public statement on transgenders?  There was no definitive acceptance or rejection.  It was simply "we need to be very careful how we approach this".

My take away is that there are some ambiguous bodies.  I'm still not convinced that spirits have gender.  I'm not refuting it either.  But it seems all of your sympathy for your friend (and indeed his position as well) is based on this notion that a sexually unambiguous female spirit would be placed in a sexually unambiguous male body.  I'm having MUCH more difficulty accepting this would happen than "some spirit" being placed in a sexually ambiguous body.

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The reason why we wont have this problem in the millennium is because bad parenting, pornography, sexual deviancy will be done away with. It is that very reason  we will be raising children with no gender or sexual identity problems at that time. Satan is bound during that time because of the righteousness of the saints on the earth.

So there will be no physical problems what-so-ever.... All the effects of the Fall will be done away...  No more broken bones, no more problems with hormones or brain chemistry  or anything like that

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Strong families with obedient children do not have sexual or gender identity problems. I will leave it at that.

WRONG.  This is just what I was saying about my brother.  We had a strong family.  And he was a very obedient child.  He was an eagle scout.  He served a full mission.  He got his undergrad at BYU.  And he was gay.

Are you going to go the route that I must have missed something because it doesn't fit your view?

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Are you going to go the route that I must have missed something because it doesn't fit your view?

Of course it's your fault Carb, after all, I couldn't be wrong!!!

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

WRONG.  This is just what I was saying about my brother.  We had a strong family.  And he was a very obedient child.  He was an eagle scout.  He served a full mission.  He got his undergrad at BYU.  And he was gay.

Are you going to go the route that I must have missed something because it doesn't fit your view?

Just wait until he explains how hermaphrodites are caused by lack of strong families or disobedient children...  Or maybe he will try to lie and say that hermaphrodites don't have gender identity issues. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by estradling75

[anatess2]

24 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Strong families with obedient children do not have sexual or gender identity problems. I will leave it at that.

 

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

WRONG.  This is just what I was saying about my brother.  We had a strong family.  And he was a very obedient child.  He was an eagle scout.  He served a full mission.  He got his undergrad at BYU.  And he was gay.

Are you going to go the route that I must have missed something because it doesn't fit your view?

I second Carborendum on this.

I have a very strong family - clannish even - and very close.  So close that I sometimes drag my husband and 2 kids to New Jersey to live with my cousins twice removed (which would make their kids and my kids cousins 3 times removed) for a few weeks.  Guess what... we have a few gay and lesbian people in our clan.  They are devout Catholics living under a devout Catholic household in a devout Catholic clan going to a Catholic School in a predominantly Catholic country.  Yep.  Gay.  Against the teachings of the Catholic Church if acted upon. 

I used to think you're not gay until you have sex with another guy or you get a boyfriend, etc.  Like, if you don't act on it you're not gay, you're just effeminate.  My husband's best friend - another one of those guys who grew up in a close strong devout Catholic family, attended Catholic Schools from K through a Bachelor's Degree in College in a predominantly Catholic country - made me realize my mistake when he told me that it is a struggle for him everyday to look at a guy and not desire to be with him so it is kinda silly to just brush that off as effeminate, especially since he has no desire to act/dress/talk/walk like a woman, he simply desires to be the man in a relationship with another man.  Anyway, I went to school with him through 4 years of college and he was as manly man as any man so I didn't know he was gay until he told my husband about it.

Edited February 21, 2017 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My husband's best friend [...] made me realize my mistake when he told me that it is a struggle for him everyday to look at a guy and not desire to be with him

Hm... Does that mean for all the straight people it is a struggle for a guy everyday to look at a girl and not desire to be with her?

[Vort]

44 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So close that I sometimes drag my husband and 2 kids to New Jersey to live with my cousins twice removed (which would make their kids and my kids cousins 3 times removed) for a few weeks.

Careful. Those are what we call "kissing cousins".

[anatess2]

48 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hm... Does that mean for all the straight people it is a struggle for a guy everyday to look at a girl and not desire to be with her?

I'm not a guy so...

But, as a girl, having spent 2 years hoping my not-yet-husband would pay me better attention than just another one of his friends would have been a pain if I knew it would never happen - like if he was already married or something.

Edited February 21, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

27 minutes ago, Vort said:

Careful. Those are what we call "kissing cousins".

Eeeewww... we're not in North Carolina!  LOL!

By the way... this brings up the situation of my Filipino friends in Ohio.  He went to Australia, I think it was a student exchange program or something, met a Filipino girl, fell in love, got engaged, and he took his fiancee to Ohio only to find out that she's his first cousin!  Her parents in the Philippines gave her up for adoption to this Australian couple when she was just a baby.  So the family pressure was for them to break the engagement but they remained steadfast and got married.  I don't quite know how they got around the Ohio law on first cousins...

Edited February 21, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

WRONG.  This is just what I was saying about my brother.  We had a strong family.  And he was a very obedient child.  He was an eagle scout.  He served a full mission.  He got his undergrad at BYU.  And he was gay.

Are you going to go the route that I must have missed something because it doesn't fit your view?

But didnt you state- " While my family had many issues that I certainly found disdainful,"? This is the part that continues to raise a red flag to me. I make this point because it is extremely difficult in todays world as parents to create an environment where children have the greatest chance. Parents who do not work hard everyday on their marriage in constant prayer, service, and humble actions to protect and improve their marriage will fail in many areas in creating that environment conducive for their childrens success in every area including their sexuality.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

 

I second Carborendum on this.

I have a very strong family - clannish even - and very close.  So close that I sometimes drag my husband and 2 kids to New Jersey to live with my cousins twice removed (which would make their kids and my kids cousins 3 times removed) for a few weeks.  Guess what... we have a few gay and lesbian people in our clan.  They are devout Catholics living under a devout Catholic household in a devout Catholic clan going to a Catholic School in a predominantly Catholic country.  Yep.  Gay.  Against the teachings of the Catholic Church if acted upon. 

I used to think you're not gay until you have sex with another guy or you get a boyfriend, etc.  Like, if you don't act on it you're not gay, you're just effeminate.  My husband's best friend - another one of those guys who grew up in a close strong devout Catholic family, attended Catholic Schools from K through a Bachelor's Degree in College in a predominantly Catholic country - made me realize my mistake when he told me that it is a struggle for him everyday to look at a guy and not desire to be with him so it is kinda silly to just brush that off as effeminate, especially since he has no desire to act/dress/talk/walk like a woman, he simply desires to be the man in a relationship with another man.  Anyway, I went to school with him through 4 years of college and he was as manly man as any man so I didn't know he was gay until he told my husband about it.

We shouldnt even start down the Catholic road but it is a proven fact that Catholic males who grow up to become leaders (priests, bishops, etc) are more prone to be gay. I have a cousin who is gay who was studying to be a Catholic priest, went to Catholic school, etc. Between the combination of being away from his family, being around all males for several years in school, broken marriage home added with the known homosexual conditioning with Cathilic schools, it doesnt surprise me one bit. He is a great guy, I love him, etc. But he wasnt born that way.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.  Here is one example.  Granted, my friend is not like this.  But, someone who bases their conclusion that my friend is wrong on the idea that there is no ambiguity - that just isn't accurate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19155947

 

This wasn't a comment in response to any of your posts. This was a response to Anatess. Your response doesn't apply to my comment, as I never specified there is no ambiguity. Did you read the whole comment to Anatess?

[Guest MormonGator]

20 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We shouldnt even start down the Catholic road but it is a proven fact that Catholic males who grow up to become leaders (priests, bishops, etc) are more prone to be gay.

No it isn't. You are making things up and showing that you have some serious prejudices. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by MormonGator

[Suzie]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

 I do know that there is a direct link with sexual identity and family association coupled with moral values. I have never seen or witnessed a person who has had sexual identity problems that have a strong moral lifestyle and are in traditional mother and father homes who are teaching and living according to godly principle.

Prove it.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Suzie

[lostinwater]

30 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This wasn't a comment in response to any of your posts. This was a response to Anatess. Your response doesn't apply to my comment, as I never specified there is no ambiguity. Did you read the whole comment to Anatess?

@Anddenex - Apologies.  i certainly could have read it closer.  i actually can't find the comment at all now.  i took what i assumed was the topic getting discussed and interjected.  Hope no offense is taken.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

@Anddenex - Apologies.  i certainly could have read it closer.  i actually can't find the comment at all now.  i took what i assumed was the topic getting discussed and interjected.  Hope no offense is taken.

None taken.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

We shouldnt even start down the Catholic road but it is a proven fact that Catholic males who grow up to become leaders (priests, bishops, etc) are more prone to be gay. I have a cousin who is gay who was studying to be a Catholic priest, went to Catholic school, etc. Between the combination of being away from his family, being around all males for several years in school, broken marriage home added with the known homosexual conditioning with Cathilic schools, it doesnt surprise me one bit. He is a great guy, I love him, etc. But he wasnt born that way.

You are wrong.

In Catholicism, the path to perfection is through the Sacraments.  There are 7 Sacraments - Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Eucharist, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rites.

A Catholic is expected to receive 6 out of the 7 for perfection.  Matrimony and Holy Orders are mutually exclusive.  Holy Orders ( what you call priests, bishops, etc.) take the vow of celibacy.  Matrimony is between man and woman only.  Therefore, if you are gay or lesbian and do not think you can succeed in Matrimony, you are encouraged to take the vow of celibacy and join the Holy Order.  Therefore, there are many gay priests and lesbian nuns in the Catholic Church.

Homosexual conditioning in Catholic schools?  Now you are just being silly.

 

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

No it isn't. You are making things up and showing that you have some serious prejudices. 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/gays-and-seminary-145329%3Famp%3D1?client=ms-android-verizon

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You are wrong.

In Catholicism, the path to perfection is through the Sacraments.  There are 7 Sacraments - Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Eucharist, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rites.

A Catholic is expected to receive 6 out of the 7 for perfection.  Matrimony and Holy Orders are mutually exclusive.  Holy Orders ( what you call priests, bishops, etc.) take the vow of celibacy.  Matrimony is between man and woman only.  Therefore, if you are gay or lesbian and do not think you can succeed in Matrimony, you are encouraged to take the vow of celibacy and join the Holy Order.  Therefore, there are many gay priests and lesbian nuns in the Catholic Church.

Homosexual conditioning in Catholic schools?  Now you are just being silly.

 

 

 

The conditioning happens in all male schools where students are in seminary. The statistics have shown that there are more gay students and priests, etc, in Catholic schools than in the general population of the United States.

[lostinwater]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The Church has taken a strong stand against homosexual behavior.  But did you see the "timid by comparison" public statement on transgenders?  There was no definitive acceptance or rejection.  It was simply "we need to be very careful how we approach this".

My take away is that there are some ambiguous bodies.  I'm still not convinced that spirits have gender.  I'm not refuting it either.  But it seems all of your sympathy for your friend (and indeed his position as well) is based on this notion that a sexually unambiguous female spirit would be placed in a sexually unambiguous male body.  I'm having MUCH more difficulty accepting this would happen than "some spirit" being placed in a sexually ambiguous body.

i hope spirits have gender.  It would seem like we'd lose something if they didn't.  To me at least  The Mormon church certainly preaches that they do.  Not sure how their not having gender would relate with the resurrection.  To me, it just doesn't feel right that they wouldn't.  i could be wrong of course.

Yes, i did notice that about the church's statement.  i certainly appreciate the difference in tone.  i really do.  It's very praiseworthy that they do not outright condemn a group of people who generally hate it - so passionately.  i actually do not want to see gender-to-biological-sex norms disappear (what a huge part of the transgender community wants) nor does my friend.  i don't think anyone would benefit.  But i do think that total and unequivocal condemnation of every belief that body and spirit gender are out of sync in this life is incorrect.  As others have said, to this point, no one has been able to provide any biblical refutation of the idea.  The closest i've heard is that because it is not explicitly spoken to and approved of, we should assume it is evil.  

My hope is that we can separate the anger, and the attempt to break down societal norms, and the cross-dressing, and the homosexuality from feelings that the fallen body on this earth may not be a 100% accurate expression of the eternal spirit that is us.  That's it.