Are our spirit children our spirit children or just God's?

[Guest]

On another board there was a discussion about how we get to create worlds and populate them with spirit children. Is God the only one who has and forms spirit children or do you think we are the ones who have as D&C says a continuation of the seeds forever. Will the spirit children be Heavenly Father's, ours, or both? If ours who will the spirit children for the worlds we help create pray to, us or our Heavenly Father and it will always be Heavenly Father and only Heavenly Father who has spirit children? This is an important topic to me since families and children is the most important thing in the world to me besides God.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

On another board there was a discussion about how we get to create worlds and populate them with spirit children. Is God the only one who has and forms spirit children or do you think we are the ones who have as D&C says a continuation of the seeds forever. Will the spirit children be Heavenly Father's, ours, or both? If ours who will the spirit children for the worlds we help create pray to, us or our Heavenly Father and it will always be Heavenly Father and only Heavenly Father who has spirit children? This is an important topic to me since families and children is the most important thing in the world to me besides God.

There is much speculation about such.  But I have yet to see scriptures that say it is so.

[classylady]

My understanding:  We were all Intelligences before we became spirit children of our Heavenly Father.  Joseph Smith taught that light or intelligence is at the core of each human soul and "was not created or made, neither indeed can be."  Lorenzo Snow coined the phrase "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be."  Not much has been revealed about the first half of that phrase.  Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter: "that gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about."  He further stated: "Well, as God is, man may become.  We believe in eternal progression.  Very strongly."

Joseph Smith taught the Saints, "You have got to learn how to be a god yourself... It is not all to be comprehended in this world.  It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole."  We can speculate all we want about how things will be, very simply, we don't know.  Read the Essay in LDS.org on "Becoming Like God".  Very good information.

Edited February 20, 2017 by classylady

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, classylady said:

"Becoming Like God"

Where is FP when you need him?

[zil]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Where is FP when you need him?

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

 

AARRGHH!!

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

On another board there was a discussion about how we get to create worlds and populate them with spirit children.

An excellent reason to avoid such boards.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

An excellent reason to avoid such boards.

Too bad we haven't thought to suggest it before. . . 

[Just_A_Guy]

The idea of God facilitating a "spiritual birth" originates with Orson and Parley Pratt.  Joseph Smith never really weighed in on it one way or the other; but most historians who have really dig into Smith's teachings think he probably favored a paradigm where God "adopted" a flock of pre-existing spirits whom He chose to shepherd along the path to exaltation.  See, e.g., the King Follett discourse:

 "The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."

Edited February 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

On 2/20/2017 at 0:36 PM, Zarahemla said:

On another board there was a discussion about how we get to create worlds and populate them with spirit children. Is God the only one who has and forms spirit children or do you think we are the ones who have as D&C says a continuation of the seeds forever. Will the spirit children be Heavenly Father's, ours, or both? If ours who will the spirit children for the worlds we help create pray to, us or our Heavenly Father and it will always be Heavenly Father and only Heavenly Father who has spirit children? This is an important topic to me since families and children is the most important thing in the world to me besides God.

“As man now is, God once was:
“As God now is, man may be.”

- Lorenzo Snow

I think it is safe to say that if God was one a man like us, we can be as much a God as he is. Also, check out 

 this is a fantastic talk about this very subject.

@Vort

I hope your not suggesting that such topics are unknowable or that they aren't worth studying. But if your comment is pointed toward the great amount of rediculous and false doctrine on the subject, then I agree with your comment  

[Suzie]

On 2/20/2017 at 11:36 AM, Zarahemla said:

On another board there was a discussion about how we get to create worlds and populate them with spirit children. Is God the only one who has and forms spirit children or do you think we are the ones who have as D&C says a continuation of the seeds forever. Will the spirit children be Heavenly Father's, ours, or both? If ours who will the spirit children for the worlds we help create pray to, us or our Heavenly Father and it will always be Heavenly Father and only Heavenly Father who has spirit children? This is an important topic to me since families and children is the most important thing in the world to me besides God.

First, I would like to say that there seems to be a popular belief that one day we will get our own planets. Even though, there are quotes that might have prompted such belief it is not official doctrine.

Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C13

Even the whole idea of becoming gods is answered this way:

Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?

Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ's teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

It seems to me the Church has been very tactful about the way they answer such questions, perhaps because we do not know much about these things.

About some of the questions in the OP, Spencer W. Kimball said:

“We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field s

o that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.”

Joseph Fielding Smith mentioned about having the opportunity of building worlds and populating them by our own offspring and many others LDS leaders shared similar thoughts.

 

 

[Fether]

26 minutes ago, Suzie said:

First, I would like to say that there seems to be a popular belief that one day we will get our own planets. Even though, there are quotes that might have prompted such belief it is not official doctrine.

 

 

I have heard that a lot.

 

"They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done."

- Gospel Fundamentals chap. 36

I know we don't necessarily use this book in church classes anymore... but this is still on LDS.org.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng

I think the concept that we "get our own planet" is wrong in the sense that God doesn't have a stash of planets he is handing out. The church has ALWAYS spoken out against the phrase "we get our own planet", but never against the concept of creating worlds for our spirit offspring.

sorry to detract from actual topic

Edited February 22, 2017 by Fether

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

@Vort

I hope your not suggesting that such topics are unknowable or that they aren't worth studying. But if your comment is pointed toward the great amount of rediculous and false doctrine on the subject, then I agree with your comment  

My point was that assuming we understand a doctrine that we most clearly do not understand, and then taking wild speculation as well-grounded thought, is far worse than simply stating the truth: "We don't know."

I cringe every time I hear some Mormon start a sentence with, "When I am a God..."

[SilentOne]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I cringe every time I hear some Mormon start a sentence with, "When I am a God..."

I've been trying to think of such sentences that I could imagine being made with any reasonable degree of confidence. I pretty much came up with, "When I am a God, I will be married" and "When I am a God, I will have much more understanding than I do now."

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

My point was that assuming we understand a doctrine that we most clearly do not understand, and then taking wild speculation as well-grounded thought, is far worse than simply stating the truth: "We don't know."

I cringe every time I hear some Mormon start a sentence with, "When I am a God..."

I mostly agree with you Vort! But there are a few truths that we do know for sure that tend to be controversial tithe Christian world.

1. We have potential to be like Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father is God. We have potential to be God. Therefore we can become Gods. (All my future arguement can heroes back to this)

2. We will be able to have spirit children just like Heavenly Father had us and his had him (assuming we are righteous in this life).

3. There will be, for those worthy, some powers of creation in the realm of planets. After all, Christ created the earth under the direction of Heavenly Father. “In the ultimate and final sense of the word, the Father is the Creator of all things. That he used the Son and others to perform many of the creative acts, delegating to them his creative powers, does not make these others creators in their own right, independent of him. He is the source of all creative power, and he simply chooses others to act for him in many of his creative enterprises” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 63).

 

there are probably others, but I can't think of them. Number 3 in particular tends to be a controversial one due to the cartoony  image the world gives it. And it most definitely is not the main reason why we want to become like Heavenly Father. That last point is not and never should be the driving motive for righteousness. Eternal families is and should be our focus.

Little tiny alarm bells in my mind goes off when I read "We just don't know". I feel like there are a lot of things we can know, but because they are not gospel principles that can be read verbatim in a gospel essentials book, we say "we just don't know". “God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them” - Joseph Smith. If we take a look at the talk I posted above and discourses like the King Follet Sermon, there is clearly doctrine that is not plainly spoken about in basic gospel books, but yet still exist and are true.

But to your point, we speculate a lot in other subjects dealing with our potential destiny. I myself, my once mission President and other members of the church I hold in high esteem often say things that are speculative. I don't believe we should suppress these discussions or avoid them, doing so would suppress the "pondering" and the "working it out in your mind" part of receiving revelation. After all, where would we be if Joseph Smith or any other prophet/apostle were to say that when something they didn't understand arose?

I believe the point we need to avoid is standing by these speculated beliefs as concrete, sound, LDS accepted beliefs and that anyone who doesn't agree is uninspired or doesn't know what they believe in. This mindset is wrong, but I also do believe that discussing them openly can lead us to further truth, or correction of error (assuming we are humble enough to accept it). After all, I feel like that is what we are doing here on this forum.

Again, I agree with you mostly, just a small anti-we-just-don't-know part of me needs to speak up. I always appreciate your comments Vort and love how bold you are without being overbearing.

and I say these things in the-... errr

[Vort]

57 minutes ago, Fether said:

Number 3 in particular tends to be a controversial one due to the cartoony  image the world gives it.

Then why would we expose the sacred gospel of Jesus Christ to ridicule for a misunderstood (ergo false) point? If someone truly believes this is a pearl of great price, why would he ever even consider casting that pearl before swine, thus proving himself unworthy of pearls?

Tell me, Fether: What, exactly, does it mean to "create a world"? What is involved? Is it a solo operation, or is it done through the agency of others? Is it a hands-on affair, or more of a think-and-blink make-mountains-move-through-Priesthood-power deal? Or maybe something completely different? How does one involved in world creation influence the laws of nature to comply with one's wishes? Do we have any real idea at all what is involved in "world-building", or what that expression might really even mean?

The answer to all the above is, "We do not know." I realize that you, your former mission president, and the other members of the Church that you mentioned may all have all sorts of opinions about the questions I raised. All of your opinions together, plus five bucks, may possibly buy you a cup of hot chocolate. But not without the $5.

[Note that, in the following paragraphs, "you" is a general term meaning you, me, and everyone else. It's not meant to single you (Fether) out personally.]

Your opinion is worthless. Your speculation is worthless. That's not an insult; it's a fact. "Pondering" and "working it out in your mind" apply to the teachings of the gospel, things such as faith, hope, charity, unselfishness, atonement, repentance, doing your home teaching, how to be a better Scoutmaster, etc. "Pondering" and "working it out in your mind" do not apply to baseless speculation about matters which form no part of the gospel of Jesus Christ -- for example, any sentence that begins with "When I am a God and create my own planet..." That is the realm of worthless opinion and worthless speculation.

But your speculation becomes far less than worthless when someone wrongly understands it as a representation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In that case, it becomes an overt negative, a detraction from the word of God, a falsehood. (I would argue that such speculations are those negative things even without someone misunderstanding them as a representation of the word of God, since they detract the mind of the speculator from true and important principles that would be better pondered than some meaningless fantasy about what it must be like to be God -- the type of fantasy found with those who spend inordinate amounts of time wondering how many wives they might have in the resurrection and whether Godhood means your'e invulnerable to, say, a direct nuclear blast.) It is a misunderstanding both of the nature of God and the reality of what we are trying to accomplish in this present state. It is a trivialization of sacred things.

It is understandable that children might wonder about such things, and perhaps seminary-aged teens, even into early adulthood. Maybe new adult members also need to work their way through such a stage of understanding the power of God and of Godliness in terms of a Marvel superhero. But at some point fairly early in the adult understanding of the gospel and the covenants we enter into, all such childish things should be firmly put away. The gospel is about holiness and sanctification, about acquiring and honing the attributes of Godliness, about giving ourselves to God and, through him, to each other. The gospel is manifestly not about speculating how we get to exercise all the cool Godly superpowers we're gonna have and how really awesome it's gonna be when we're more powerful than Superman and don't even hafta wear a cape.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Vort

[NightSG]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

Tell me, Fether: What, exactly, does it mean to "create a world"?

First, hire M.C. Escher for the design work....

[Fether]

11 hours ago, Vort said:

Then why would we expose the sacred gospel of Jesus Christ to ridicule for a misunderstood (ergo false) point? If someone truly believes this is a pearl of great price, why would he ever even consider casting that pearl before swine, thus proving himself unworthy of pearls?

Tell me, Fether: What, exactly, does it mean to "create a world"? What is involved? Is it a solo operation, or is it done through the agency of others? Is it a hands-on affair, or more of a think-and-blink make-mountains-move-through-Priesthood-power deal? Or maybe something completely different? How does one involved in world creation influence the laws of nature to comply with one's wishes? Do we have any real idea at all what is involved in "world-building", or what that expression might really even mean?

The answer to all the above is, "We do not know." I realize that you, your former mission president, and the other members of the Church that you mentioned may all have all sorts of opinions about the questions I raised. All of your opinions together, plus five bucks, may possibly buy you a cup of hot chocolate. But not without the $5.

[Note that, in the following paragraphs, "you" is a general term meaning you, me, and everyone else. It's not meant to single you (Fether) out personally.]

Your opinion is worthless. Your speculation is worthless. That's not an insult; it's a fact. "Pondering" and "working it out in your mind" apply to the teachings of the gospel, things such as faith, hope, charity, unselfishness, atonement, repentance, doing your home teaching, how to be a better Scoutmaster, etc. "Pondering" and "working it out in your mind" do not apply to baseless speculation about matters which form no part of the gospel of Jesus Christ -- for example, any sentence that begins with "When I am a God and create my own planet..." That is the realm of worthless opinion and worthless speculation.

But your speculation becomes far less than worthless when someone wrongly understands it as a representation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In that case, it becomes an overt negative, a detraction from the word of God, a falsehood. (I would argue that such speculations are those negative things even without someone misunderstanding them as a representation of the word of God, since they detract the mind of the speculator from true and important principles that would be better pondered than some meaningless fantasy about what it must be like to be God -- the type of fantasy found with those who spend inordinate amounts of time wondering how many wives they might have in the resurrection and whether Godhood means your'e invulnerable to, say, a direct nuclear blast.) It is a misunderstanding both of the nature of God and the reality of what we are trying to accomplish in this present state. It is a trivialization of sacred things.

It is understandable that children might wonder about such things, and perhaps seminary-aged teens, even into early adulthood. Maybe new adult members also need to work their way through such a stage of understanding the power of God and of Godliness in terms of a Marvel superhero. But at some point fairly early in the adult understanding of the gospel and the covenants we enter into, all such childish things should be firmly put away. The gospel is about holiness and sanctification, about acquiring and honing the attributes of Godliness, about giving ourselves to God and, through him, to each other. The gospel is manifestly not about speculating how we get to exercise all the cool Godly superpowers we're gonna have and how really awesome it's gonna be when we're more powerful than Superman and don't even hafta wear a cape.

Not everyone who wants to learn if this is true or not is obssesed with one day being an all powerful super god that can create worlds

and Im not so much arguing for the doctrine that we can create worlds, im totally fine with that not being the case. I guess what really gets me riled up is the fact that there seems to be clear contradictions when it comes to this topic... and no one seems to care. I'm not suggesting there is some flaw in the doctrine that the church is trying to hurry, but rather ai don't understand something and I want to know what it is.

#1 http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

12. Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

 

#2 https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng

To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done.

 

there are other quotes from LDS sources that back both sides (many of the ones for creation being from apostles back in the old day that we claim as being non-doctrinal (which I also don't understand (NOT ARGUING AGAINST! Just don't understand).Many also being from more modern sources).

but again... I'm not trying to convince anyone of the doctrine... just trying to make sense if the contradiction.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 2/20/2017 at 0:36 PM, Zarahemla said:

Is God the only one who has and forms spirit children or do you think we are the ones who have as D&C says a continuation of the seeds forever. 

Isn't the answer to this in the question? Is not the D&C scripture?

[Guest]

On 2/20/2017 at 3:08 PM, Carborendum said:

Where is FP when you need him?

40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Isn't the answer to this in the question? Is not the D&C scripture?

As if on cue.

[Eydis]

On 2/20/2017 at 0:36 PM, Zarahemla said:

On another board there was a discussion about how we get to create worlds and populate them with spirit children. Is God the only one who has and forms spirit children or do you think we are the ones who have as D&C says a continuation of the seeds forever. Will the spirit children be Heavenly Father's, ours, or both? If ours who will the spirit children for the worlds we help create pray to, us or our Heavenly Father and it will always be Heavenly Father and only Heavenly Father who has spirit children? This is an important topic to me since families and children is the most important thing in the world to me besides God.

When one loves their neighbor as their self as is required by all who make it to the Celestial Kingdom, the joy that is experienced by glorious acts is felt to the same degree that Christ experienced all of our sins.  One Celestial being will not have anything over another, otherwise that changes the definition of what is Celestial.  The telestial kingdom is described as one where one star differs from another.  I think if one has the mindset that they could have one above or less than another than they are setting their self up for something other than a Celestial life.  This is why the greatest commandments are what they are, to learn to love things that are not ours and therefore be able to experience them as if they were ours.  Joy is endless when one gains joy and glory from the actions of others as God does, then there is no end but when one defines their glory as personal acts then it is limited.

[JohnsonJones]

The following is MY opinion and only my opinion based on the aforementioned King Follet, other items by Brigham Young and other Latter-Day Prophets.

IF (and that is an IF) you attain Exaltation, the spirit children will be YOURs.  That is what it means to have eternal increase. 

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng&old=true

There are three degrees of glory.  The Telestial for those who did all sorts of sin in this life, but did not commit the unpardonable sin, who, after suffering and finally accepting the Lord, will attain a degree of glory.  The differences in the Telestial kingdom are as varied as the stars in the sky. If I had guesses, my guess is that this glory will be a place without disease, hunger, age, or other fallibilities of this fallen world.  It will be like a garden of eternal glory.

The Second is the Terrestrial Kingdom.  Here we have men that may have had the truth but were not valiant in it, or that are honorable men but were blinded by the craftiness of men.  If I were to guess, this is where many of those who are of another religion, faith, or idea and, with full knowledge of the truth, have chosen to reject the truth due to being blinded by the world.  These are also those who are members of the church, and failing to have other ways of salvation, have accepted Baptism, but not striven to go beyond that or fallen back into the ways of the world, but committed no sin so terrible as to warrant a place in the Telestial Kingdom.  This is probably more like the heaven that people imagine.  Just as many religions preach, people will be able to be with the creator of this world (the Lord) and speak with him at times, but will not be able to be in the presence of the Father of us all (of whom they do not acknowledge any beyond the Savior so I suppose they get what they desire in this life?)

The Highest degree of Glory is the Celestial Kingdom.  This is beyond any description, being greater than the other two just as much as the Sun is greater than the Moon or stars in glory in the Earthly skies.  This kingdom is ALSO divided into three degrees, though this is even MORE my opinion.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

Parents who are sealed in the temple and then have children that fall away from the church may have the children in the Celestial Kingdom.  The sealing bonds of eternity are that strong.  However, this does NOT negate the results of the children's choices.  If their are punishments they must endure, they must endure these still and whether in this life or the next, repent of those sins.  After this has occurred, those children can be saved in the Celestial Kingdom with their families.  HOWEVER, they do NOT attain a Celestial Glory.  They have earned another glory, and thus, even though in the Celestial Kingdom, their glory is the lowest and hence would be in the lowest of the three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom.  They have the powers and abilities granted to them from whatever they have gained from their time on earth, but not that of those who were more worthy.

Above them are those who are not married.  These can not have eternal increase.  They have no way to have that increase of children.  They are of the second degree of the Celestial Kingdom.  They have the powers of creation in regards to the command of elements, worlds, and laws, but not the practicality to utilize those powers for they have no one to serve to put those powers to use of their own accord.  In that light, they may be servants of others of the highest degree.

Those in the Highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are those who are sealed as King and Queen and have endured to the end.  These shall have eternal increase and they shall serve their children (what, you thought being a King and Queen meant you rule...maybe, but more importantly it means that you, just like you are a mother and father on earth and serve your children, you will also do that in heaven, basically the higher you go the more serving you do).  They have the means to have children and thus populate worlds and creation.  This is the purpose of existence, and their purpose is to increase which increases not just their glory, but also that of their father.

So yes, those children are YOURS, just like the children that you have on earth are your physical children.  Those children you have on this earth had an existence prior to this as spirit children of our Father (and they are STILL his spirit children) but, as far as their physical bodies go, if you are sealed to them, they will also always be your children for their physical bodies (and our Fathers Great great...etc...children in physical form as well as he was the Father of Adam).

Even in the next life, if you have exaltation, though you will have spirit children, they will also have had a prior existence as intelligences.  In that way, this life in many ways is also representative of the life we had before, if one can see it.

And now you know one of the mysteries of heaven in regards to the degrees of glory and the various degrees found in the Celestial Kingdom itself.

Once again, this is in my opinion, so if you disagree, be free to be happy and do so.  However, this is my thoughts and ideas. 

 

If you have further questions on this and want to expand in regards to ideas on this, reading in Joseph Fielding Smiths Doctrines of Salvation Vol. II and III, the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as well as Bruce R. Mckonkies the Promised Messiah and the Millenial Messiah are good resources.