Reformation

[omegaseamaster75]

Maybe we need a another reformation.  Kind of a cleansing of the rolls. The General Authorities will assign individuals to judge personal worthiness and make a determination as to who is in and who is out.  Make submission to this judgement mandatory for continued membership and those that don't submit will have their membership revoked. 

As a ward clerk this appeals to me and it will clear up the less actives on the rolls and should also clear up point in doctrine and policy that we love to debate here.

[Vort]

I find it telling that this suggestion comes from the righteous and tolerant omegaseamaster75, and not from all those hateful, gossiping, judgmental hypocrites so many here rail against.

[person0]

I would actually love this from a logistical view.  However, while this would be appealing if the Church were just a club for people of a high moral standard, it can not happen in a church that wants to truly help people come unto Christ.  Additionally, it could potentially have the effect of causing prophecy to go unfulfilled as the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is not representative of the world, but is representative only of the Church and its membership.  Furthermore, it would likely lead to the annoying uprising of another (false) branch of the Church.

[omegaseamaster75]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

I find it telling that this suggestion comes from the righteous and tolerant omegaseamaster75, and not from all those hateful, gossiping, judgmental hypocrites so many here rail against.

Just thinking of you guys, I would submit in a totally unselfish manner for the greater good

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Just thinking of you guys, I would submit in a totally unselfish manner for the greater good

Is there no end to the depth of your goodness and charity, omega?

[omegaseamaster75]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Is there no end to the depth of your goodness and charity, omega?

Nope it's bottomless. (not in the naked way)

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Nope it's bottomless. (not in the naked way)

Your parenthetical addendum took away my chance to ask about whether it was topless, too.

[Grunt]

Is that the same as banning them from church?

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Is that the same as banning them from church?

Grunt, first, please note that this entire thread is sarcastic.  I assume you mean "remove from the rolls" - that would be like excommunication, but it would not be banning anyone from attending church, only from official participation (holding callings, the priesthood, saying prayers, partaking of the sacrament, that sort of thing).

[omegaseamaster75]

@Grunt this is a hypothetical statement made by someone with no authority, and no desire to be in judgement of anyone. Purely internet fodder and a big what if.

Hypothetically if you did not pass the personal worthiness assessment, refused to repent your membership would be rescinded

[Grunt]

I need a sarcasm tag.

[The Folk Prophet]

20 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I need a sarcasm tag.

I do this:

I get along with everybody! 

[mordorbund]

5 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Maybe we need a another reformation.  Kind of a cleansing of the rolls. The General Authorities will assign individuals to judge personal worthiness and make a determination as to who is in and who is out.  Make submission to this judgement mandatory for continued membership and those that don't submit will have their membership revoked. 

As a ward clerk this appeals to me and it will clear up the less actives on the rolls and should also clear up point in doctrine and policy that we love to debate here.

I am already a member of just such a council. You probably have not heard of us because we try to cover our tracks (it's not difficult when you control who stays in and who's kicked out). We like to call ourselves the Danites, but the bloggernacle insists on referring to us as the Strengthening Church Members Committee.

[Sunday21]

On 2017-07-25 at 6:54 PM, Grunt said:

Is that the same as banning them from church?

Everyone is welcome at church and the social activities. Those who look after the church records personally wish to remove the names of those who do not attend church but ....that is a neat and tidy person's personal desire. This is not how the lds church works. 

If someone is excommunicated ( where I live. I don't know about elsewhere) very few know. The person is able to attend church and the activities. In my area, the people teaching the classses would not know. A very small number of people would know and generally they are responsible people.

[Grunt]

6 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Everyone is welcome at church and the social activities. Those who look after the church records personally wish to remove the names of those who do not attend church but ....that is a neat and tidy person's personal desire. This is not how the lds church works. 

If someone is excommunicated ( where I live. I don't know about elsewhere) very few know. The person is able to attend church and the activities. In my area, the people teaching the classses would not know. A very small number of people would know and generally they are responsible people.

Interesting.  So I could be speaking with, and getting advice from, people who aren't members of the church?  What could cause you to get excommunicated?  

[Sunday21]

5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Interesting.  So I could be speaking with, and getting advice from, people who aren't members of the church?  What could cause you to get excommunicated?  

Getting excommunicated is not common. I am not sure what you would have to do as I have not tested the system. For example, when I returned to the church after decades of inactivity, I was sleeping with a boyfriend. My bishop and I had a gentle chat when he asked me to take on am important calling. I asked my bishop's advice on how to change my domestic arrangements. He was very insightful. Clearly women had discussed the same topic with him before! My bishop was gentle and kind. I talked to boyfriend. We set a wedding date. The bishop was keen to perform the ceremony. Various ladies began offering their services to bake cakes etc. The ward was very, very happy! 

So what do you need to do to be excommunicated? I truly do not know. i think if a long term member decided to have relations with a number of people and was not sorry, that might lead to excommunication.  As excommunication is a very private matter, where I live, I just do not know!

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

Getting excommunicated is not common. I am not sure what you would have to do as I have not tested the system. For example, when I returned to the church after decades of inactivity, I was sleeping with a boyfriend. My bishop and I had a gentle chat when he asked me to take on am important calling. I asked my bishop's advice on how to change my domestic arrangements. He was very insightful. Clearly women had discussed the same topic with him before! My bishop was gentle and kind. I talked to boyfriend. We set a wedding date. The bishop was keen to perform the ceremony. Various ladies began offering their services to bake cakes etc. The ward was very, very happy! 

So what do you need to do to be excommunicated? I truly do not know. i think if a long term member decided to have relations with a number of people and was not sorry, that might lead to excommunication.  As excommunication is a very private matter, where I live, I just do not know!

Thank you!  

[estradling75]

I realize the topic of Reformation was done jokingly... but I believe one is coming.  The scripture talk about the Wheat and the Tares, and the Wise and Foolish virgins.  Both are predictions of reformation.  I do not expect that it will be done by clerks or committees though.  I expect it to be done the way it was in 3 Nephi.  By fire, by God destroying the wicked.

 

On the subject of Excommunication.  Excommunication is the most extreme form of correction the church has.  It uses it for three reasons.  1 To protect the innocent, 2 To protect the Church, and 3 To encourage the sinner to repent.

These three can and often do blend in many cases.  Since the church is made up of flaw peopled it does not always do all three perfectly but it tries.

In the case of 3 and because @Sunday21 shared her story I am going to use it. When she went inactive she effectively excommunicated herself.  There was no need for the church to declare formally what she had already taken it upon herself to do. (This whole thread is about doing it anyways so the church does not have to keep up with trying)

When she decided to come back she had to repent (ie change her behavior, her thoughts, her desires).  Of course the bishop was happy to see her and to help.  (Kicking people out is hard, bringing them in is joyous).  She was following the exact path that we hope any and all excommunicated members follow.  And since the church did not take any formal action to kick her out it did not take any formal action to bring her back.  All they had to do was point her on how to get right again.

To me @Sunday21's story is exactly why we will not Reformation like the thread is talking about. (although I still think the one I described is coming)

 

[omegaseamaster75]

On 7/30/2017 at 7:54 AM, estradling75 said:

I realize the topic of Reformation was done jokingly... but I believe one is coming.  The scripture talk about the Wheat and the Tares, and the Wise and Foolish virgins.  Both are predictions of reformation.  I do not expect that it will be done by clerks or committees though.  I expect it to be done the way it was in 3 Nephi.  By fire, by God destroying the wicked.

 

It was only done half jokingly. The church has already done this once.  I for one fall into the camp of thinking that they will not do it again, we are to diverse and I do not think they have the stomach for the political fall out. 

[mdfxdb]

Omega.  Pretty sure you're late to the party on this idea: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Reformation_(LDS)_of_1856-1857

I however think we should do it again.  It's been 160 years, and our ward has 506 members on the rolls with only 180 attending on a regular basis.  Time to clean up.....

[Anddenex]

On 7/30/2017 at 5:33 AM, Grunt said:

 What could cause you to get excommunicated?  

Here are principles that apply to someone who could be excommunicated:

1) There position/calling in their ward/stake or general leadership of the Church
2) The seriousness of their transgression (i.e. fornicating vs. adultery; fornicating once vs. multiple fractions)
3) The remorse "Godly" or "worldly" sorrow for their sin against God
4) Visiting with bishop or stake president, confessing sin, and then next day repeating same "serious" sin  with "wordly" sorrow
5) Were children/innocent affected due to the sin/transgression, if so, how many times
6) How does this reflect upon the good name of the Church (i.e. a General Authority vs. lay member will have different outcomes)
7) How will the result affect the accused, the repentant
8) Mental stability, mental knowledge
9) Has the individual been involved in a  disciplinary council before, and if so, same sin/transgression or different
10) The most important aspect, the Spirit, God speaking to his servants (above all the most important). Let me provide a different example. I know of a missionary who should have not gone on his mission due to unrepentant sins, sins which he continued up until he left on a mission. When on his mission, he sought for repentance. Upon repenting the GA over the mission said something to these words, "Everything you have done specifies you should be sent home, but for some reason only God knows, he wants you to remain on your mission through the repentance process." The Spirit is very individualized, as it should be.

God provides principles, and from these principles leadership seeks His will.