This is why people leave

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

and at least do the Tolkien thing of mentioning interesting bits,even if they immediately follow them with half a page of "but that's not important right now, so in the interest of brevity..."

I like that.  I'm going to use that when I have to explain to Pharisaic anti-Mormons why some phrases of exceptions and conditions were left out of some verses in the Book of Mormon and the D&C.

[ldsguy422]

It's inevitable that we will all have moments where members of the Church will press our buttons in an upsetting manner. But I seriously doubt the majority of these people are trying to make us feel bad about ourselves. I'm sure a few of the culprits are lacking a bit of introspection, but my guess is that we're probably offended by our interpretation of what people say and do more than anything else. Sometimes members can come across as judgmental, self-righteous, narrow-minded, pushy, insensitive, and cliquish.  It's human nature. And you know, we all say an do dumb things. I'm sure we've all had multiple encounters with people in the Church that have rubbed us the wrong way. But is it really that important that we're all consumed by it to the point that we're willing to lose out on eternal blessings? Hopefully not. I love the counsel given by Elder Bednar several years ago:

When we believe or say we have been offended, we usually mean we feel insulted, mistreated, snubbed, or disrespected. And certainly clumsy, embarrassing, unprincipled, and mean-spirited things do occur in our interactions with other people that would allow us to take offense. However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else.

In the grand division of all of God’s creations, there are things to act and things to be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:13–14). As sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, we have been blessed with the gift of moral agency, the capacity for independent action and choice. Endowed with agency, you and I are agents, and we primarily are to act and not just be acted upon. To believe that someone or something can make us feel offended, angry, hurt, or bitter diminishes our moral agency and transforms us into objects to be acted upon. As agents, however, you and I have the power to act and to choose how we will respond to an offensive or hurtful situation.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by ldsguy422

[NeedleinA]

...........

Edited April 15, 2018 by NeedleinA

[Lost Boy]

On 12/17/2017 at 12:27 PM, dahlia said:

So, my name (misspelled) showed up in the bulletin for the 3rd time to help clean the church. I did it the first time, but not the 2nd. As it turns out, the brother in charge of cleaning schedules was standing in the foyer. To be polite, I told him I wasn't going to come. He asked me, "Can you explain?"  What? OK, fine. I did it once. That's my commitment. I have to take an arthritis med before and after I do that assignment and I just don't feel like bringing on pain in order to clean the church. 

I walk toward the door, and I'm so hot I turn around and go back. "I've already done it once, "I repeated. Then he says he's done it four times. I am supposed to be shamed into compliance? Did he expect me just to roll over and say I'll show up? I'm 64. I don't need to explain myself to some white man about why I do or don't do something. 

No one told me I'd have to be a maid to the Church when I joined. And people wonder why folks become less active.

 

The lord certainly didn't give all of us the same talents and abilities. Some are great communicators. Others are not.  Unfortunately unkind things can come out of the mouths of members. Those comments can drive those with testimonies planted in the rocky soil to leave the church. 

Further more the person making the comment may not have even realized that they did something wrong. Chances are that this is the case with your experience. I know I have made dumb comments and didn't realize till after the fact. 

You didn't have to explain yourself. I had an event in my life in January that shook me to the core. I prayed earnestly about it since then. Part of the answer to that prayer was a firm prompting that I need to be kind to those around me. I really took stock of how I have lived my life and figured that I even though I thought I had, had not been kind. I had not been mean, but I had not actively pursued a kind life. 

That was back in January. Since that time I have actively sought ways to be kind to those around me. Forgive wrong doings, etc.  Furthermore, I have noticed many talks in sacrament meeting and in general conference specifically urging kindness. 

It has had a significant impact on my life.  My guess is that the brother that wasn't kind to you could use some kindness in his life. Showing true kindness to those around us even when they don't deserve it can have a powerful effect, subtle yet powerful. It can truly change those around us. 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

23 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

The lord certainly didn't give all of us the same talents and abilities. Some are great communicators. Others are not.  Unfortunately unkind things can come out of the mouths of members. Those comments can drive those with testimonies planted in the rocky soil to leave the church. 

Further more the person making the comment may not have even realized that they did something wrong. Chances are that this is the case with your experience. I know I have made dumb comments and didn't realize till after the fact. 

You didn't have to explain yourself. I had an event in my life in January that shook me to the core. I prayed earnestly about it since then. Part of the answer to that prayer was a firm prompting that I need to be kind to those around me. I really took stock of how I have lived my life and figured that I even though I thought I had, had not been kind. I had not been mean, but I had not actively pursued a kind life. 

That was back in January. Since that time I have actively sought ways to be kind to those around me. Forgive wrong doings, etc.  Furthermore, I have noticed many talks in sacrament meeting and in general conference specifically urging kindness. 

It has had a significant impact on my life.  My guess is that the brother that wasn't kind to you could use some kindness in his life. Showing true kindness to those around us even when they don't deserve it can have a powerful effect, subtle yet powerful. It can truly change those around us. 

 

That's very sweet of you @Lost Boy and I admire you for doing this.

How do you walk the balance of showing kindness to people who have been cruel to you and not being a doormat? Curious, not challenging you. 

[Lost Boy]

5 hours ago, MormonGator said:

That's very sweet of you @Lost Boy and I admire you for doing this.

How do you walk the balance of showing kindness to people who have been cruel to you and not being a doormat? Curious, not challenging you. 

That is a good question.  Would a spouse that had a year and a half long emotional affair with someone constitute being cruel?  Or are we talking about something worse like a spouse physically abusing the other?

Let's start with the later.  The later is a bit tricky as there are different degrees to abuse.  If it is physically life threatening type, the kindest thing would be to call the police and get law enforcement intervention.  Protects both parties...  although one side may not agree to this statement.

I think maybe the easiest way is to learn to control ones emotions.  Emotions get in the way of clear thought.  And without clarity of thought, it is near impossible to be kind in a cruel situation.  I am far better at controlling my emotions than I used to be.  When I found out about my wife's emotional affair, I could have gone different ways.  It honestly broke my heart in half learning about it, but I just calmly listened to her and calmly asked questions.  Not mean questions, but questions about who and why.  In my earlier years, I am sure I would have erupted and had a nuclear melt down.  This time I took it to the Lord on my knees.  The answer was clear.  "Lover her, forgive her, treat her with kindness"  It took a couple of months before the hurt inside really started to go away.   Had she been abusive, I would have asked her to go to counseling.  And if she refused, I would leave her.  Staying in a bad situation is not necessarily showing kindness.

Cruel situation are not easy to deal with and it takes a cool head and the help of the Lord to know how best to deal with it.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

That is a good question.  Would a spouse that had a year and a half long emotional affair with someone constitute being cruel?  Or are we talking about something worse like a spouse physically abusing the other?

Let's start with the later.  The later is a bit tricky as there are different degrees to abuse.  If it is physically life threatening type, the kindest thing would be to call the police and get law enforcement intervention.  Protects both parties...  although one side may not agree to this statement.

I think maybe the easiest way is to learn to control ones emotions.  Emotions get in the way of clear thought.  And without clarity of thought, it is near impossible to be kind in a cruel situation.  I am far better at controlling my emotions than I used to be.  When I found out about my wife's emotional affair, I could have gone different ways.  It honestly broke my heart in half learning about it, but I just calmly listened to her and calmly asked questions.  Not mean questions, but questions about who and why.  In my earlier years, I am sure I would have erupted and had a nuclear melt down.  This time I took it to the Lord on my knees.  The answer was clear.  "Lover her, forgive her, treat her with kindness"  It took a couple of months before the hurt inside really started to go away.   Had she been abusive, I would have asked her to go to counseling.  And if she refused, I would leave her.  Staying in a bad situation is not necessarily showing kindness.

Cruel situation are not easy to deal with and it takes a cool head and the help of the Lord to know how best to deal with it.

Very good advice my friend. Thanks for sharing that! 

[Lost Boy]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Very good advice my friend. Thanks for sharing that! 

I'll give one more related.  Acting out in anger almost never achieves positive results.  I can't think of a single time when I acted out in anger that I was happy with the results.  Anger is a pretty useless emotion.  I think most of the time if you take a deep breath, take a step back, try to look at the bigger picture, you find that you anger is generally not so justified.

[Sunday21]

On 2018-03-20 at 9:43 PM, Carborendum said:

You scoff.  But to wave arms for over an hour of practice is really good exercise for the shoulders.  I've gotten really sore many times -- especially the fast and powerful songs with lots of umph.

As far as the endorphines, you're not going to feel them until you see people right in front of you reacting to your every whim.  Imagining... only goes so far.  Besides, it was just a thing someone said.  I can't corroborate this because my choir hardly ever does what I say anyway.

Next time I am asked to be chorister, that’s what I am going to do! Arm straight out to the sides, up and down

[Guest]

On 3/26/2018 at 8:18 PM, NeedleinA said:

...........

Best post I've ever read.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/26/2018 at 7:18 PM, NeedleinA said:

...........

So inspiring.

[NeedleinA]

My first attempt at computer braille and everyone loves it so far (PATS himself on the back).

Edited April 19, 2018 by NeedleinA

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

My first attempt at computer braille and everyone loves it so far (pants himself on the back).

I thought it was hissing in Morse code. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss...

[zil]

4 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

pants himself

  Dude!  Get a room already.

[NeedleinA]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

  Dude!  Get a room already.

I've really got to stop posting unless I can phocuss bet her.

[unixknight]

On 12/17/2017 at 12:27 PM, dahlia said:

 I don't need to explain myself to some white man about why I do or don't do something.

Is there some reason his race is relevant here?

Please disregard if this has been addressed and I missed it.

Edited May 11, 2018 by unixknight

[BJ64]

On 5/11/2018 at 10:44 AM, unixknight said:

Is there some reason his race is relevant here?

Please disregard if this has been addressed and I missed it.

I agree. If a white man said he didn’t have to answer to a black woman he would be called out as both racist and sexist. 

At any rate as has been said earlier, there are easy jobs that can be done assuming time isn’t an issue. 

My ward cleans every other quarter and I get asked once or twice a quarter. I have a key to every door in the stake so when I help clean I clean the stake offices as well as the bishop’s offices, clerks offices and library. All the rooms that rarely get cleaned because nobody has the key. 

[unixknight]

21 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I agree. If a white man said he didn’t have to answer to a black woman he would be called out as both racist and sexist.

 

And rightly so.  I can't help wondering why this hasn't come up.

[pwrfrk]

Back to the OP....

Leaving the church over such minuscule reasons shows there is far more at stake than just someone leaving the church.  There is almost always something greater, something larger, something more damaging than something small like pianist not being paid enough or being asked several times to do janitorial work.

When I left the church, I was incensed over how I had seen members being mistreated and church leaders didn't care.  But it was more than that, my wife and I were mistreated.  A certain church leader has a history of mistreating women in church, and I screwed up when I put my foot down, demanding it stop.  Finally, seeing my complaints and complaints of others go no where, I left. 

You see, I look at what I went through, and even now, in my attempt to return, I see what my errors were.  I left the church because of the imperfections of others separate me from the pureness of the Church.

When you leave the church, you are leaving for what reason?  Oh, this guy doesn't talk nice to me.  That woman hates me.  These people treat me like I'm inferior.  In my case I had a stake president that harassed women if they wouldn't sleep with him.  My wife included.  Except she wasn't LDS (she preferred agnostic).  But even in my case, that wasn't reason enough to leave.

Instead of leaving, discuss the issue with the person you have problems with.  If that isn't possible, go to the Bishop.  If that doesn't work, try the Stake President.  And if that is not possible, go to a different ward.  Make arrangements with the Missionaries for home teaching.  But do not leave the Church over the imperfections and sins of others. 

You're on a cruise ship (for argument's sake, let's say it's Norwegian Cruise).  It hit's an iceberg off the coast of Egypt (location means nothing really).  There's people in your lifeboat that you don't like.  Whatcha gonna do?  Bail out?  Try swimming for shore?  No, you stay in the lifeboat and make the best of it.  Just like in Church.  You don't get along with a few people, make the best of it.  Because you're not in the lifeboat for the sake of the jerks, but your sake.  You are going to Church so you can worship with those of like faith, and show God that He really is more important to you than the opinions of others. 

Think about this- when you bail out of the lifeboat, remember where you are.  Off the coast of Sri Lanka.  Alligators are freshwater.  Crocodiles can do both.  When you bail, you're munchies for the crocs.  When you leave the Church, Satan welcomes you.

Just my thoughts.

Edited May 24, 2018 by pwrfrk
kant tel the deferince twine crocs & gators

[Vort]

19 minutes ago, pwrfrk said:

something more damaging than something small like pianist not being paid enough

Out of curiosity, how much do you think the ward pianist should be paid? Should the Primary pianist be paid the same? How about the RS pianist?

[pwrfrk]

It's a calling.  If you can do it, great.  If you cannot, then don't accept it.  Should they be paid?  I have no idea.  But to leave the church over that...?  Of course she said she wasn't leaving the church, in later posts, but is it really that bad?

 

[Guest MormonGator]

  I'm always amazed about how much the average LDS does for their calling, considering none of it is paid work. Very inspiring! 

[Grunt]

I don't get paid for teaching Gospel Principles but there has been talk of me paying those who attend.

[pwrfrk]

So much the church does with a mere 10% and volunteers that groups like the Red Cross can't even compete.

 

[pwrfrk]

Grunt, you sound like the instructor we have.  I must confess that I don't get any sounder of a sleep than when he's lecturing....