Another horrific school shooting

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@Godless, as someone who has honorably served our country and has been trained with firearms, do really think this will work, or is it more of a deterrent? After all, it takes years of training to become proficient at firing a gun, much less under great stress like an active school shooting would certainly create.  

Don't get me wrong-I'm sort of for that too. But I'm not naive. This isn't the movies.

 @mirkwood and @Carborendum, your thoughts on this too please. 

It absolutely will work.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

It must be an American cultural thing?  Australian responded very well to more legal restrictions on gun ownership.

Americans tend to look to the example of Nazi Germany, not Australia, when contemplating the wisdom of restricting citizen gun ownership.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

It absolutely will work.

You guys know more about guns and defense than I do, so if you think it will, I'm much more confident, and very happy about it. Like I said, I'm a big 2nd amendment guy, but I don't claim to be an expert on guns and protection. 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

It must be an American cultural thing?  Australian responded very well to more legal restrictions on gun ownership.

As per the gods of Wikipedia, Australia’s cultural diversity is minuscule compared to the US (apparently 94% claim European ancestry); and a disarmed society’s making it twenty years without degenerating into a genocidal dictatorship is hardly proof that gun confiscation is a viable permanent feature for a free democratic republic.

I’m sincerely glad things are working out for you in Oz; but if we were—or aspired to be—governed just like you folks are, we’d still be part of Her Majesty's dominions.  And if history is any guide, my sons or grandsons are probably going to end up being asked to risk their lives saving the bacon of some totalitarian country or group of countries that, once upon a time, thought gun confiscation was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[lostinwater]

5 hours ago, MormonGator said:

After all, it takes years of training to become proficient at firing a gun, much less under great stress like an active school shooting would certainly create.  

i was in a mall in south Seattle area (Southcenter) last Saturday that had a false alarm about an active shooter.  i guess there was some rowdiness that resulted in people (and some large, heavy, metal posts) falling and hitting the ground.  Hearing a loud bang and seeing people on the ground was enough to spark a panic that resulted in the mall getting evacuated, and dozens of swat/military grade firearms streaming into the building.  Of course, nobody knew this at the time.  Just a massive confused rush.  That aside, people and their kids were running out swearing absolutely they not only heard shots, but that they saw someone get shot.  All a big misunderstanding in retrospect, but people were saying things as if they knew them to be true.  And they weren't.

As i watched all that fire power and testosterone enter the building rambo-style from just outside - clips slamming, etc., i felt perhaps more strongly than i ever have just how very little information, how much adrenaline, and how easy it would be to squeeze a trigger in that kind of situation.

i have 4 elementary school teachers in my family.  i am trying to imagine how they might respond to a false-alarm situation like that.  Especially if you're tasked with protecting 20-25 kids.    Lots of very confusing situations.

i wouldn't trust my own impulses, for sure.  Not even if i went through a fair amount of training about when the use of that kind of force was justified.

Article for those interested

http://komonews.com/news/local/rumors-of-gunfire-causes-panic-at-southcenter-mall

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i wouldn't trust my own impulses, for sure.  Not even if i went through a fair amount of training about when the use of that kind of force was justified.

 

I agree. It's a much more gray situation than what both sides want to admit. Some teachers may refuse to carry. Some teachers might be terrible shots. Others might not be the type that you want carrying. The school resource officer in the latest shooting in Florida didn't show up to confront the shooter, and I assume he was trained as an police officer. 

So it's much more complex than "Let's give teachers guns, training, and then hope for the best." 

[NightSG]

8 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

As i watched all that fire power and testosterone enter the building rambo-style from just outside - clips slamming, etc., i felt perhaps more strongly than i ever have just how very little information, how much adrenaline, and how easy it would be to squeeze a trigger in that kind of situation.

Just ask Charles Kinsey.  OTOH, if you keep your frickin' booger auger outside the trigger guard unless and until you have a confirmed valid target and are fully prepared to destroy that target, like the NRA teaches even small children, it's impossible to squeeze it accidentally.

As for teachers, I wouldn't expect any of them to risk their own class unnecessarily by going out hunting for a shooter.  Move the students away from the door, get behind the best cover or concealment available in the room and be ready to shoot anything that comes through the door before police announce the situation is under control.

[zil]

8 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i wouldn't trust my own impulses, for sure.  Not even if i went through a fair amount of training about when the use of that kind of force was justified.

IMO, unless one has actually been through at least the first class, one doesn't know whether to trust one's own impulses.  (Maybe you have been, or aren't interested, and that's your option and I respect whatever you decide for yourself.  I'm just saying that it's all imagination until one's been through simulated training, and from the training I've had, imagination is wrong without the training - after the training, it can be useful.)

IMO, if one is concerned about the skills or quality of training teachers have, the best solution is to make it easier for them to get training - shutting down ranges (either through the locals protesting their presence or overly burdensome fees and regulations (those which go beyond prudent)) is not useful.  Requiring people to drive an hour or more toward the middle of nowhere just to practice is not necessary and helps to ensure untrained gun owners.

[NightSG]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

I'm just saying that it's all imagination until one's been through simulated training,

Simulated training?  Is that where they have an animatronic teacher pretending to tell you what to do?  

Quote

IMO, if one is concerned about the skills or quality of training teachers have, the best solution is to make it easier for them to get training

As I recall, at least TacPro Shooting Center was offering a substantial discount on their tactical pistol and pistol force-on-force courses to educators with concealed handgun licenses.  That one includes the jungle run, which is basically a target range spread out over about a mile, running hard from station to station to simulate the effects of a hard adrenalin dump. 

Pretty much the only more realistic training you can get is Ayoob's LFI 4, which includes things like donating a pint of blood (under competent medical supervision) immediately before shooting a qualifer stage to "simulate" significant blood loss, and has included an epinephrine injection (also under medical supervision) to simulate the adrenalin dump.  Of course, the three LFI courses leading up to that one will take you 120 hours of training, $3,000+ in tuition and a small fortune in ammo, so I'd say it's not realistic for teachers to put in the time and money on that one.

[zil]

1 minute ago, NightSG said:

Simulated training?  Is that where they have an animatronic teacher pretending to tell you what to do?  

Yeah, OK, bad me.  I meant training which simulates threatening situations.

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

Oy.  It's always so easy to tell a fake story with one or two statistics.  The claim: "sweeping gun control measures" and gun buybacks and destruction, will result in fewer deaths, just like Australia. Here's another bunch of statistics, that expose the horrible lie that is trying to be dumped on us with this stick figure guy:

Be like Australia if you want, but don't be like the people who believe everything you see on the internet just because it has a stick figure guy with a hat.

[NightSG]

14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's always so easy to tell a fake story with one or two statistics. 

No it's not; you need a graph.

Clearly, closing EPCOT center would same more people than any form of gun control.   (Numbers are real.)

[Blossom76]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oy.  It's always so easy to tell a fake story with one or two statistics.  The claim: "sweeping gun control measures" and gun buybacks and destruction, will result in fewer deaths, just like Australia. Here's another bunch of statistics, that expose the horrible lie that is trying to be dumped on us with this stick figure guy:

Be like Australia if you want, but don't be like the people who believe everything you see on the internet just because it has a stick figure guy with a hat.

There is a big difference between homicide (which are horrible and happen everywhere) and mass shootings.  Australia hasn't had a mass shooting since the strict gun control laws came in.

And we can still have guns, we just have to jump through a few more hoops - which helps keep the crazy people from getting them in the first place!

Edited February 23, 2018 by Blossom76

[Blossom76]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As per the gods of Wikipedia, Australia’s cultural diversity is minuscule compared to the US (apparently 94% claim European ancestry); and a disarmed society’s making it twenty years without degenerating into a genocidal dictatorship is hardly proof that gun confiscation is a viable permanent feature for a free democratic republic.

I’m sincerely glad things are working out for you in Oz; but if we were—or aspired to be—governed just like you folks are, we’d still be part of Her Majesty's dominions.  And if history is any guide, my sons or grandsons are probably going to end up being asked to risk their lives saving the bacon of some totalitarian country or group of countries that, once upon a time, thought gun confiscation was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Most Australians don't give a fig about the monarchy and in recent history the Australian government sends troops to fight with and add force for America not the British. In fact about the only thing the British get out of us is easier immigration and tax breaks when they go back home (assuming they last 10 years here - which a lot of them don't - they can't stand the heat!)

Edited February 23, 2018 by Blossom76

[Vort]

3 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i was in a mall in south Seattle area (Southcenter) last Saturday that had a false alarm about an active shooter.  i guess there was some rowdiness that resulted in people (and some large, heavy, metal posts) falling and hitting the ground.  Hearing a loud bang and seeing people on the ground was enough to spark a panic that resulted in the mall getting evacuated, and dozens of swat/military grade firearms streaming into the building.  Of course, nobody knew this at the time.  Just a massive confused rush.  That aside, people and their kids were running out swearing absolutely they not only heard shots, but that they saw someone get shot.  All a big misunderstanding in retrospect, but people were saying things as if they knew them to be true.  And they weren't.

As i watched all that fire power and testosterone enter the building rambo-style from just outside - clips slamming, etc., i felt perhaps more strongly than i ever have just how very little information, how much adrenaline, and how easy it would be to squeeze a trigger in that kind of situation.

i have 4 elementary school teachers in my family.  i am trying to imagine how they might respond to a false-alarm situation like that.  Especially if you're tasked with protecting 20-25 kids.    Lots of very confusing situations.

i wouldn't trust my own impulses, for sure.  Not even if i went through a fair amount of training about when the use of that kind of force was justified.

Article for those interested

http://komonews.com/news/local/rumors-of-gunfire-causes-panic-at-southcenter-mall

Seattle is Weenieville Incorporated. People here wet their pants if someone says "Republican". I'm not surprised that a mall went berserk because a metal pole fell down.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i was in a mall in south Seattle area (Southcenter) last Saturday that had a false alarm about an active shooter.  i guess there was some rowdiness that resulted in people (and some large, heavy, metal posts) falling and hitting the ground.  Hearing a loud bang and seeing people on the ground was enough to spark a panic that resulted in the mall getting evacuated, and dozens of swat/military grade firearms streaming into the building.  Of course, nobody knew this at the time.  Just a massive confused rush.  That aside, people and their kids were running out swearing absolutely they not only heard shots, but that they saw someone get shot.  All a big misunderstanding in retrospect, but people were saying things as if they knew them to be true.  And they weren't.

As i watched all that fire power and testosterone enter the building rambo-style from just outside - clips slamming, etc., i felt perhaps more strongly than i ever have just how very little information, how much adrenaline, and how easy it would be to squeeze a trigger in that kind of situation.

i have 4 elementary school teachers in my family.  i am trying to imagine how they might respond to a false-alarm situation like that.  Especially if you're tasked with protecting 20-25 kids.    Lots of very confusing situations.

i wouldn't trust my own impulses, for sure.  Not even if i went through a fair amount of training about when the use of that kind of force was justified.

Article for those interested

http://komonews.com/news/local/rumors-of-gunfire-causes-panic-at-southcenter-mall

Wow, I live in this area (I mean about 30 minutes from there) and I had no idea.  That sounds terrifying, and so soon after the horror in Florida, I'm not surprised people are very jumpy.  

I agree being able to stay calm in such a situation, and to shoot straight requires a certain kind of person.  I know I couldn't do it.  i have training in firearms.   When I worked in prison (many years ago) I was taught to use a handgun, a shotgun and a rifle.  I was a horrible shot on the best days (barely passed that part of my class.)  My favorite weapon was (and is) the shotgun because with the scattershot, I figure that even if my hands are shaking (and they would be) I might have a chance at hitting the target.   

I don't know what the answer is here.  Armed security instead of armed teachers?  Metal detectors?  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Seattle is Weenieville Incorporated. People here wet their pants if someone says "Republican". I'm not surprised that a mall went berserk because a metal pole fell down.

Instead of ad hominem would this be an ad towninem fallacy?  Heh, heh....

I think everyone's nerves are jittery right now, not just Seattle. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

12 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@Godless, as someone who has honorably served our country and has been trained with firearms, do really think this will work, or is it more of a deterrent? After all, it takes years of training to become proficient at firing a gun, much less under great stress like an active school shooting would certainly create.  

Don't get me wrong-I'm sort of for that too. But I'm not naive. This isn't the movies.

I think it is the deterrent aspect that is looked for here.  I mean it is quite a different thing to walk into a building where you know others might be armed and shoot back.  I have considered this possibility too, for the deterrent aspect.  However, I think I would favor armed security officers, who can focus on security, rather than teachers whose attention we want to be on teaching.  I mean we don't want to provide weapons to disturbed or curious youth via distracted teachers . . .  

[mirkwood]

12 hours ago, lostinwater said:

 

As i watched all that fire power and testosterone enter the building rambo-style from just outside - clips slamming, etc., i felt perhaps more strongly than i ever have just how very little information, how much adrenaline, and how easy it would be to squeeze a trigger in that kind of situation.

 

You are right you do not know what it is like.  Your prejudicial opening sentence clearly shows your lack knowledge.

"While your son or daughter runs from the sound of gunfire, someone else's son or daughter runs towards the gunfire and stops it."  ~mirkwood

I thank God for the men and women I work with who run towards gunfire. 

 

 

[anatess2]

5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think it is the deterrent aspect that is looked for here.  I mean it is quite a different thing to walk into a building where you know others might be armed and shoot back.  I have considered this possibility too, for the deterrent aspect.  However, I think I would favor armed security officers, who can focus on security, rather than teachers whose attention we want to be on teaching.  I mean we don't want to provide weapons to disturbed or curious youth via distracted teachers . . .  

I like the idea of hiring vets for security.  I also like the idea of having vets teaching classes allowed to conceal carry.  My son currently have 3 teachers who are vets - his math teacher, his history teacher, and his JROTC commander.  I would trust those guys with protecting my children.  As a matter of fact, my son and I were just talking about it and he said if Parkland happened at his school, those 3 guys would be the ones with 20 bullets in their bodies protecting 40 kids each.  The cool thing about conceal carry is you don't have to announce you have one.  So curious youth don't have to know.

In the meantime, my other son's art school is screwed.  They just had a lunch event where teachers and students went and wrote the White House to ban AR15s.

Edited February 23, 2018 by anatess2

[mirkwood]

12 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 The school resource officer in the latest shooting in Florida didn't show up to confront the shooter, and I assume he was trained as an police officer. 
 

He would be a police officer, what his agency trains in regard to active shooter I do not know.

I am only waiting long enough to put my tactical gear on and grab my rifle.  I would only wait if I had partners there gearing up with me, otherwise I'm going in alone.  Most of my co-workers are the same.

[lostinwater]

2 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

You are right you do not know what it is like.  Your prejudicial opening sentence clearly shows your lack knowledge.

"While your son or daughter runs from the sound of gunfire, someone else's son or daughter runs towards the gunfire and stops it."  ~mirkwood

I thank God for the men and women I work with who run towards gunfire. 

You are right, and i appreciate the correction.

i didn't mean that to be derogatory - but my choice of words was careless and in review, showed how i placed my own attempt to make a point above the respect that should be accorded to the brave people who respond to such situations.

You are such a person, and have my gratitude.

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

He would be a police officer, what his agency trains in regard to active shooter I do not know.

I am only waiting long enough to put my tactical gear on and grab my rifle.  I would only wait if I had partners there gearing up with me, otherwise I'm going in alone.  Most of my co-workers are the same.

There are 2 kinds of people - including in LEOs - those who run towards gunfire and those who, when the rubber hits the pavement, just can't pluck up the courage.  The resource officer was the latter.  I don't hold it against him.  It takes a special kind of person to risk one's life for his fellowmen - like the coach, like the JROTC kid, etc. - who are the silent heroes among us.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

He would be a police officer, what his agency trains in regard to active shooter I do not know.

I am only waiting long enough to put my tactical gear on and grab my rifle.  I would only wait if I had partners there gearing up with me, otherwise I'm going in alone.  Most of my co-workers are the same.

I guess the Sheriff asked him to resign. Scott Israel (sheriff) is devastated that the resource officer didn't do more. 
 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I like the idea of hiring vets for security.  I also like the idea of having vets teaching classes allowed to conceal carry.  My son currently have 3 teachers who are vets - his math teacher, his history teacher, and his JROTC commander.  I would trust those guys with protecting my children.  As a matter of fact, my son and I were just talking about it and he said if Parkland happened at his school, those 3 guys would be the ones with 20 bullets in their bodies protecting 40 kids each.  The cool thing about conceal carry is you don't have to announce you have one.  So curious youth don't have to know.

I could get behind this idea.