Sunday21 Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-basic-income-pilot Hamilton, Brantford, Brant County Thunder Bay, along with the Municipality of Oliver Paipoonge, Township of Shuniah, Municipality of Neebing, Township of Conmee, Township of O’Connor, Township of Gillies Lindsay This program might be useful for students in one of the listed locations. It is not a lot of $ but it might help a bit, also farmers and artists. Edited February 28, 2018 by Sunday21 DennisTate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 @Vort, told you Weenieville can't compete with Canada... DennisTate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 I believe the Utah and Ouray Indian tribe, in northeastern Utah, also provides its members with what is essentially a universal basic income—the tribe distributes the dividends of its numerous oil drilling leases to its members. I’m told that in good years that can exceed $50,000 per capita. (And it’s supposedly not countable income under the IRS, so it’s all tax-free and they can still get Medicaid and Section 8 and WIC and whatever other bennies the feds offer.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said: I believe the Utah and Ouray Indian tribe, in northeastern Utah, also provides its members with what is essentially a universal basic income—the tribe distributes the dividends of its numerous oil drilling leases to its members. I’m told that in good years that can exceed $50,000 per capita. (And it’s supposedly not countable income under the IRS, so it’s all tax-free and they can still get Medicaid and Section 8 and WIC and whatever other bennies the feds offer.) Wouldn't this more like profit-sharing than UBI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Wouldn't this more like profit-sharing than UBI? Perhaps, which is why I used the qualifier “essentially”. But the tribal government is technically a sovereign government, it is the tribe that holds the leases and divvies up the dividends, and as I understand it every enrolled member of the Ute Nation gets the money. Edited February 28, 2018 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said: Perhaps, which is why I used the qualifier “essentially”. But the tribal government is technically a sovereign government, it is the tribe that holds the leases and divvies up the dividends, and as I understand it every enrolled member of the Ute Nation gets the money. Yes, this set up wouldn't have the same pitfalls as a UBI. UBI is straight entitelement that is not tied to any revenue-producing endeavor but rather a redistributive effect. This always gives the same consequence in democratic societies - those who have wealth move their wealth out of the system, those from elsewhere who don't have wealth move into the system. Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Yes, this set up wouldn't have the same pitfalls as a UBI. UBI is straight entitelement that is not tied to any revenue-producing endeavor but rather a redistributive effect. This always gives the same consequence in democratic societies - those who have wealth move their wealth out of the system, those from elsewhere who don't have wealth move into the system. It has been suggested by knowledgeable persons of my acquaintance; that the oil money is one reason why this particular tribe will only allow you to enroll if you have at least 5/8 tribal ancestry (other tribes may accept a blood quantum as low as 1/4 or, in some cases, as little as 1/128)—more people means that the pot has to be spread more thinly. anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: It has been suggested by knowledgeable persons of my acquaintance; that the oil money is one reason why this particular tribe will only allow you to enroll if you have at least 5/8 tribal ancestry (other tribes may accept a blood quantum as low as 1/4 or, in some cases, as little as 1/128)—more people means that the pot has to be spread more thinly. That's actually the only way any socialist form of economy can work - when the membership is limited to a group of people with tightly shared values. Diversity and socialism is oil and water. Open immigration and socialism is the same. Socialism can work in a small society of strong Protestant work ethics like they used to have in the Scandinavian states. Open borders EU immigration changed all that. Just_A_Guy and JohnsonJones 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 minute ago, anatess2 said: That's actually the only way any socialist form of economy can work - when the membership is limited to a group of people with tightly shared values. Diversity and socialism is oil and water. Open immigration and socialism is the same. Socialism can work in a small society of strong Protestant work ethics like they used to have in the Scandinavian states. Open borders EU immigration changed all that. Freakonomics recently had a podcast on trust-based societies that touched on this. I think their position was that diversity is still an overall good (they seemed to take this largely on faith) but acknowledged that the road to diversity has a number of bumps and pitfalls and leads to an erosion of social trust (which the guest suggested could be short-term). anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: Freakonomics recently had a podcast on trust-based societies that touched on this. I think their position was that diversity is still an overall good (they seemed to take this largely on faith) but acknowledged that the road to diversity has a number of bumps and pitfalls and leads to an erosion of social trust (which the guest suggested could be short-term). Diversity can only be good if the diverse group of people do not celebrate diversity as the thing that is good but that the UNITY of values from a diverse group of people is what's celebrated as the thing that is good. Make sense? It is the pattern that God set - Becoming One. person0, Just_A_Guy and SilentOne 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 4 hours ago, Sunday21 said: https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-basic-income-pilot Hamilton, Brantford, Brant County Thunder Bay, along with the Municipality of Oliver Paipoonge, Township of Shuniah, Municipality of Neebing, Township of Conmee, Township of O’Connor, Township of Gillies Lindsay This program might be useful for students in one of the listed locations. It is not a lot of $ but it might help a bit, also farmers and artists. What is this testing, exactly? Quote The Basic Income Group will receive monthly basic income payments for up to a three-year period. The concerns with UBI are that Everyone getting $$ will inflate the price of everything until it's inconsequential. This is only with a subset of the population, so it's creating a group of have's. If #1 is mitigated (perhaps by raising the amount periodically) then there will be a drop in the workforce. This is only a 3-year study, so it lacks the longevity that proponents are asking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted February 28, 2018 Report Share Posted February 28, 2018 Just now, mordorbund said: What is this testing, exactly? The concerns with UBI are that Everyone getting $$ will inflate the price of everything until it's inconsequential. This is only with a subset of the population, so it's creating a group of have's. If #1 is mitigated (perhaps by raising the amount periodically) then there will be a drop in the workforce. This is only a 3-year study, so it lacks the longevity that proponents are asking for. You know what, I take it back. This looks to test what they'll actually spend it on* since it's replacing a number of the current government programs, which addresses another concern: 3. It won't really replace our social safety nets because people will still use the UBI irresponsibly and need to get bailed out. * And a number of other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted March 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2018 More news. Strong public support https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/03/16/pilot-project-to-introduce-a-basic-income-in-ontario-gets-strong-public-support.html Outline of the program https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-basic-income-pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 Finland’s experience https://youtu.be/vwjNrxVd-1E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 On 2/28/2018 at 12:32 PM, anatess2 said: Diversity can only be good if the diverse group of people do not celebrate diversity as the thing that is good but that the UNITY of values from a diverse group of people is what's celebrated as the thing that is good. Genius! Pure genius! I love it! anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) Remember @Sunday21, everything the government "gives" to someone is taken from someone else. Taxation in some ways, is a form of legalized theft. Edited April 4, 2018 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) On 2/28/2018 at 9:41 AM, Just_A_Guy said: I believe the Utah and Ouray Indian tribe, in northeastern Utah, also provides its members with what is essentially a universal basic income—the tribe distributes the dividends of its numerous oil drilling leases to its members. I’m told that in good years that can exceed $50,000 per capita. (And it’s supposedly not countable income under the IRS, so it’s all tax-free and they can still get Medicaid and Section 8 and WIC and whatever other bennies the feds offer.) This is exactly what Kuwait does. The government is the actual owner of the oil fields. But they "profit share" with all citizens. What this has caused is an entire immigrant workforce and commercial environment. All citizens do virtually nothing. Some of them have "businesses" so they say they are "businessmen". But he fact is that most of them are only open a few hours a day. The government owns anything that runs at all. While management positions are filled with citizens who actually care. The workforce has to be expats because they can't get enough citizens to work. So, a large part of the income gets sent overseas to the workers' home countries. As long as the oil income lasts, then they will be fine. But as oil prices went down recently, the entire nation was having problems. They increased their deportation rates by citing minor violations (such as traffic violations) as justification to deport. This is a perfect example of what happens when an economy is entirely or largely dependent on a single good or service. What's more important is what happens when the government actually has the financial means to be completely socialist and have a guaranteed income for everyone. 1) It is not really everyone. 2) Very few citizens will actually opt to work. Edited April 4, 2018 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 10 hours ago, person0 said: Genius! Pure genius! I love it! You do realize that is a picture of @anatess2's daughter, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Remember @Sunday21, everything the government "gives" to someone is taken from someone else. Taxation in some ways, is a form of legalized theft. I think that the various governments are hoping to save money by reducing the administrative costs of the current welfare programs. In the Finland example above, the government is not giving enough money to survive on, more of a subsidy. I am interested not because I am convinced that these programs will be perfect or even partially effective but because it is interesting to test out a different approach and to collect data and compare. These programs are being tested out in a number of different countries. Merely trying a different approach is interesting. Edited April 4, 2018 by Sunday21 Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, Sunday21 said: it is interesting to test out a different approach and to collect data and compare. These programs are being tested out in a number of different countries. I agree! As long as one of those countries isn’t my country ;p Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Fether said: I agree! As long as one of those countries isn’t my country ;p Well, I think that they may be trying in Stockton California. Someone on this service mentioned that this is not a good location as there has been a lot of economic upheaval. I am not sure that the upheaval matters if there is a control group.. The control group might be a waiting list for the service. They could try a matched pair design. So what factors do we think might make a difference? Drug use, age, etc. Try to have matched pairs and have one member of the pair in the program and one member in the control group. I don’t know what they are doing in Stockton. They are trying out the system in several parts of my province. On the other hand we are just about to have a provincial election so that may mark the end of the project. So we can look at Finland! I wish there was more info online about the various projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, Sunday21 said: Stockton California. Pfff. That's its own country, not part of this one. Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) Housing First The guaranteed income programs in Finland and Ontario have been cancelled. In Ontario, the Conservative Party got in and cancelled the program, they were trying an income subsidy in 3 locations. The plan was to give people a low level of income, below the level that a person could live on, This amount of money might allow them to buy antidepressants or to get some education. The idea was to stop spending money on monitoring people and instead give the money directly to people. Anyway cancelled in the 3 locations in Ontario. So here’s another idea, Housing First. Give the homeless housing and then work on drug addictions etc. Medicine Hat’s experience looks good. Doesn’t work for all. Seems to work for 9/10 according to video. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/26/world/canada/homeless-canada-medicine-hat-housing-first.html Utah’s experiences show a more complex side of the issue. Could be an 80/20 problem with the 20% needing institutional care. Still a helpful tool https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865678779/Is-Utah-still-a-model-for-solving-chronic-homelessness.html Edited August 13, 2018 by Sunday21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 11 hours ago, Sunday21 said: Housing First The guaranteed income programs in Finland and Ontario have been cancelled. In Ontario, the Conservative Party got in and cancelled the program, they were trying an income subsidy in 3 locations. The plan was to give people a low level of income, below the level that a person could live on, This amount of money might allow them to buy antidepressants or to get some education. The idea was to stop spending money on monitoring people and instead give the money directly to people. Anyway cancelled in the 3 locations in Ontario. So here’s another idea, Housing First. Give the homeless housing and then work on drug addictions etc. Medicine Hat’s experience looks good. Doesn’t work for all. Seems to work for 9/10 according to video. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/26/world/canada/homeless-canada-medicine-hat-housing-first.html Utah’s experiences show a more complex side of the issue. Could be an 80/20 problem with the 20% needing institutional care. Still a helpful tool https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865678779/Is-Utah-still-a-model-for-solving-chronic-homelessness.html This experiment has already failed in San Francisco for the same reason that GNI fails. When a city offers free housing, all the homeless people across the nation will flock to it, which causes the inevitable outcome of running out of other people's money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 There are three things necessary for eliminating poverty (poor and homelessness) and surprise! money is not one of the three things. The Traveler anatess2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.