Are animals damned?

[anatess2]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

So then, show me one scripture that states a person who is saved into the kingdom of heaven is damned.

Rob, we have different understanding of what "heaven" is.  I think your understanding of the 3 kingdoms of glory does not align with LDS teaching, but that's just my opinion.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The "greater damnation" means that one can be sentenced to a longer duration in hell than for others which will be a lesser time. This is the same as a prison sentence- some receive a greater sentence than others.

Remember that Rob disbelieves Section 76. To him, as to most of non-LDS Christianity, salvation/damnation is a binary state. His ideas need to be understood in this context.

I am a bit surprised that Rob apparently thinks that damnation need not be eternal, and that those who are damned in the resurrection can eventually achieve salvation. But I have long ago given up on trying to understand exactly how Rob sees LDS doctrine.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Rob, we have different understanding of what "heaven" is.  I think your understanding of the 3 kingdoms of glory does not align with LDS teaching, but that's just my opinion.

The reality is- the kingdom of heaven includes all the glories. There are only two ultimate kingdoms that the scriptures speak of- the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of hell. This is 2hy one cannot be saved from hell and be damned at tge same time. No scripture (and trust me, I have really really searched) exists that states one can be saved from Satan and still be damned. This is precisely why no one can find such scripture, none exists. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Remember that Rob disbelieves Section 76. To him, as to most of non-LDS Christianity, salvation/damnation is a binary state. His ideas need to be understood in this context.

I am a bit surprised that Rob apparently thinks that damnation need not be eternal, and that those who are damned in the resurrection can eventually achieve salvation. But I have long ago given up on trying to understand exactly how Rob sees LDS doctrine.

You are assuming wrong. I do believe in section 76. Its just that I dont agree with the myriad of ways people have interpteted the vision. It creates too many obvious contradictions.

Damnation can be both temporary or eternal. Those spirits in prison who accept only endure a temporary damnation while those who refuse to repent will endure an eternal damnation.

[person0]

All dogs go to heaven!

Admittedly I haven't read this thread, so this may have been discussed already, but if exalted man can produce spirit offspring, is it not reasonable to assume that exalted animals could potentially do the same, thus resulting in them not being damned?

This is one of Cleon Skousen's beliefs that I also tend to agree with.  If nothing more, it seems plausible, yet unimportant.

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The reality is- the kingdom of heaven includes all the glories. There are only two ultimate kingdoms that the scriptures speak of- the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of hell. This is 2hy one cannot be saved from hell and be damned at tge same time. No scripture (and trust me, I have really really searched) exists that states one can be saved from Satan and still be damned. This is precisely why no one can find such scripture, none exists. 

Yes.  This is the Catholic understanding.

[person0]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The reality is- the kingdom of heaven includes all the glories. There are only two ultimate kingdoms that the scriptures speak of- the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of hell. This is 2hy one cannot be saved from hell and be damned at tge same time. No scripture (and trust me, I have really really searched) exists that states one can be saved from Satan and still be damned. This is precisely why no one can find such scripture, none exists.

This belief only makes sense if you also believe in progression between kingdoms.  I personally reject the idea of progression between kingdoms, but also accept that it could technically be viewed as an unsettled doctrinal matter, with even General Authorities having opinions on both sides.

That said, an interesting thought.  God probably has revealed more than enough information to answer just about every doctrinal question in existence.  Even probably enough to actually PROVE the restored gospel is true, but it is hidden from man by our own doing.  People removed and altered ancient scriptures which are not found in the Bible.  People are too wicked to be prepared for the sealed portion of the Gold Plates, which contain a great deal of information as well.

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are assuming wrong. I do believe in section 76. Its just that I dont agree with the myriad of ways people have interpteted the vision. It creates too many obvious contradictions.

Damnation can be both temporary or eternal. Those spirits in prison who accept only endure a temporary damnation while those who refuse to repent will endure an eternal damnation.

Rob, you are a brother, unique scriptural and doctrinal interpretations notwithstanding.

[Rob Osborn]

42 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes.  This is the Catholic understanding.

And LDS, we just got a fuzzy contradictory way of understanding and teaching it.

[Rob Osborn]

39 minutes ago, person0 said:

This belief only makes sense if you also believe in progression between kingdoms.  I personally reject the idea of progression between kingdoms, but also accept that it could technically be viewed as an unsettled doctrinal matter, with even General Authorities having opinions on both sides.

That said, an interesting thought.  God probably has revealed more than enough information to answer just about every doctrinal question in existence.  Even probably enough to actually PROVE the restored gospel is true, but it is hidden from man by our own doing.  People removed and altered ancient scriptures which are not found in the Bible.  People are too wicked to be prepared for the sealed portion of the Gold Plates, which contain a great deal of information as well.

Ive always thought it strange that many a mormon can disbelive in orogression between kingdoms when tge temple shows precisely we do just that- progress through the kingdoms. 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ive always thought it strange that many a mormon can disbelive in orogression between kingdoms when tge temple shows precisely we do just that- progress through the kingdoms. 

The endowment and its presentation are specifically for those who are not yet resurrected, as a means of preparing them for the resurrection (among other things).

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Rob sees LDS doctrine.

He doesn't. He sees Rob's doctrine.

LDS doctrine on these matter is fairly straightforward.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ive always thought it strange that many a mormon can disbelive in orogression between kingdoms when tge temple shows precisely we do just that- progress through the kingdoms. 

Because the explicit and clear teachings in every manual, conference talk, book, church website, etc., clarify the matter plainly.

How you can believe that the temple plainly teaches one thing but all the modern-day apostle and prophets either fail to understand that or simply let the false teachings perpetuate despite their higher understanding (which is plainly not the case because they express the exact same teachings as are in the manuals if and when they speak on the matter) is beyond me. You have a very, very low opinion of these men who have been called and qualified of God to interpret and teach the doctrines of the church.

[Bruce Hiskey]

I find the argument that 'a just God wouldn't allow human suffering' interesting when the animal kingdom is observed.  God created a very harsh world for animals, so why would there be an exception for humans?  Animal behavior is instinctual, with very few exceptions.  Thus, God created them to behave in a certain way in order to fulfill the measure of their creation.  If they obey God's rules, as it seems they do, I see nothing to prevent them from enjoying eternal progression just as humans do.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ive always thought it strange that many a mormon can disbelive in orogression between kingdoms when tge temple shows precisely we do just that- progress through the kingdoms. 

Need I remind you of the warning already given?

Quote

As we all know, the temple ceremonies are heavily symbolic; have many layers of meaning; and are to be understood by revelation.  They certainly were not intended for use as a bludgeon to try to force others into conformity with our preferred doctrinal perspectives; or to darkly hint that modern Church leadership is somehow in error for failing to adopt our own pet interpretations.  

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Guest

[Bruce Hiskey]

I guess so, since I have not idea what you're talking about.

 

[Rob Osborn]

48 minutes ago, Vort said:

The endowment and its presentation are specifically for those who are not yet resurrected, as a means of preparing them for the resurrection (among other things).

Its the plan of salvation

[Colirio]

Since the scriptures are not dictionaries, seems that someone would turn to modern prophets and apostles for clarification:

 

 

Elder Bednar -

"One of the potent scriptural meanings of the word damned is illustrated in his (Satan's) inability to continue developing and becoming like our Heavenly Father." 

 

 

Here's the full quote from April 2013 -

"Satan relentlessly works to distort the most important elements of the Father’s plan. He does not have a body, and his eternal progress has been halted. Just as water flowing in a riverbed is stopped by a dam, so the adversary’s eternal progress is thwarted because he does not have a physical body. Because of his rebellion, Lucifer has denied himself all of the mortal blessings and experiences made possible through a body of flesh and bones. He cannot learn the lessons that only an embodied spirit can learn. He resents the reality of a literal and universal resurrection of all mankind. One of the potent scriptural meanings of the word damned is illustrated in his inability to continue developing and becoming like our Heavenly Father." 

[Rob Osborn]

35 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Because the explicit and clear teachings in every manual, conference talk, book, church website, etc., clarify the matter plainly.

How you can believe that the temple plainly teaches one thing but all the modern-day apostle and prophets either fail to understand that or simply let the false teachings perpetuate despite their higher understanding (which is plainly not the case because they express the exact same teachings as are in the manuals if and when they speak on the matter) is beyond me. You have a very, very low opinion of these men who have been called and qualified of God to interpret and teach the doctrines of the church.

Just think- its all because we have strangely adopted definitions of words that make no sense. The scriptures define doctrine. I asked- can one define this definition of damnatiin in scripture? The answer is a resounding no, it cannot be defined from scriptures. The scriptures define damnation just like Joseph Smith used it in translating the scriptures as was common protestent understanding of gis time. It wasnt until many years after Josephs death that we created a different definition. That definition is unwarranted and wrong.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Since the scriptures are not dictionaries, seems that someone would turn to modern prophets and apostles for clarification:

 

 

Elder Bednar -

"One of the potent scriptural meanings of the word damned is illustrated in his (Satan's) inability to continue developing and becoming like our Heavenly Father." 

 

 

Here's the full quote from April 2013 -

"Satan relentlessly works to distort the most important elements of the Father’s plan. He does not have a body, and his eternal progress has been halted. Just as water flowing in a riverbed is stopped by a dam, so the adversary’s eternal progress is thwarted because he does not have a physical body. Because of his rebellion, Lucifer has denied himself all of the mortal blessings and experiences made possible through a body of flesh and bones. He cannot learn the lessons that only an embodied spirit can learn. He resents the reality of a literal and universal resurrection of all mankind. One of the potent scriptural meanings of the word damned is illustrated in his inability to continue developing and becoming like our Heavenly Father." 

Well, this is a typical homonym. Its analogous to using the wrord "red" and "read" the same way. Its a rather embarrasing situation. The words "dam" and damn" are homonyms. They have the same sound but have entirely different meanings.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, this is a typical homonym. Its analogous to using the wrord "red" and "read" the same way. Its a rather embarrasing situation. The words "dam" and damn" are homonyms. They have the same sound but have entirely different meanings.

Rob,

This is the only true post you've made throughout this entire discussion.  What you're missing is that the definition preceded the analogy-by-homonym. 

I believe it was LeGrand Richards, who made the connection that others latched onto.  While the lay person may unwittingly be making a malapropism, I believe others only use the homonym out of convenience, rather than because they believe the homonyms are the same word.

Don't make the mistake that you're accusing others of by mistaking coincidence for intent.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Rob,

This is the only true post you've made throughout this entire discussion.  What you're missing is that the definition preceded the analogy-by-homonym. 

I believe it was LeGrand Richards, who made the connection that others latched onto.  While the lay person may unwittingly be making a malapropism, I believe others only use the homonym out of convenience, rather than because they believe the homonyms are the same word.

Don't make the mistake that you're accusing others of by mistaking coincidence for intent.

Yeah, im not sure who started it but no dictionary I have ever encountered defined damn as "being stopped in its progress". Maybe if we used a synonym of the word it would stop this dogmatism. Perhaps if we used the word condemned instead. Then we wouldnt say "just like a river can be condemned, so too can we". That wouldnt make sense.

[person0]

30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, im not sure who started it but no dictionary I have ever encountered defined damn as "being stopped in its progress". Maybe if we used a synonym of the word it would stop this dogmatism. Perhaps if we used the word condemned instead. Then we wouldnt say "just like a river can be condemned, so too can we". That wouldnt make sense.

 

Quote

DAMN; DAMNATION; DAMNABLE

dam, dam-na'-shun, dam'-na-bl:

These words have undergone a change of meaning since the King James Version was made. They are derived from Latin damnare = "to inflict a loss," "to condemn," and that was their original meaning in English. Now they denote exclusively the idea of everlasting punishment in hell. It is often difficult to determine which meaning was intended by the translators in the King James Version.

. . .

But generally these words refer to man as a sinner against God, judged guilty by Him, and liable to the just penalty of sin. They imply nothing further as to the nature of the penalty or the state of man undergoing it, nor as to its duration. Nor does the word "eternal" . . . when added to them, determine the question of duration. Condemnation is an act in the moral universe, which cannot be determined under categories of time.

These terms define the action of God in relation to man's conduct, as that of the Supreme Judge, but they express only one aspect of that relation which is only fully conceived, when coordinated with the more fundamental idea of God's Fatherhood.

(Source)

Sounds like this source corroborates D&C 19 fairly well.  (This is intended only as commentary, not as retort)

Edited March 14, 2018 by person0

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, im not sure who started it but no dictionary I have ever encountered defined damn as "being stopped in its progress". Maybe if we used a synonym of the word it would stop this dogmatism. Perhaps if we used the word condemned instead. Then we wouldnt say "just like a river can be condemned, so too can we". That wouldnt make sense.

Fair point.

But in the same fairness then we'd have to accept that the meaning of the word didn't have the same connotation when the original translators of the KJV Bible used it for krino or apollumi as it does in common usage now.

Damn and it's derivative "condemn" relate etymologically to harm, loss and judgment rather than being stuffed into a literal place. The modern usage of "hell" is just as unfortunate in comparison to the usage from the Bible, all original meanings referencing symbolic states, and typically only meaning the state of being dead. "Hell", is literally equivalent to death. To be damned to hell is to be condemned to death. Or...in other words, barred from eternal life.

This really isn't that complicated. Why is this complicated? Why do we even have to be debating this?

What a complete waste of time.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Fair point.

But in the same fairness then we'd have to accept that the meaning of the word didn't have the same connotation when the original translators of the KJV Bible used it for krino or apollumi as it does in common usage now.

Damn and it's derivative "condemn" relate etymologically to harm, loss and judgment rather than being stuffed into a literal place. The modern usage of "hell" is just as unfortunate in comparison to the usage from the Bible, all original meanings referencing symbolic states, and typically only meaning the state of being dead. "Hell", is literally equivalent to death. To be damned to hell is to be condemned to death. Or...in other words, barred from eternal life.

This really isn't that complicated. Why is this complicated? Why do we even have to be debating this?

What a complete waste of time.

Its not complicated. Thats what I have been saying all along. The way the word is used in scripture always means to be condemned to hell. Its really that simple. It shouldnt be debatable.