How personal is personal revelation?

[Fether]

This is a question I have had for a long time, but never really put it into words.

My question is focused more towards the general act on whether to do or not to do, what is ok and what is not ok. not so much on HOW to do. I have some examples below.

1) On my mission there was the rule about music that said: 

“Listen only to music that is consistent with the sacred spirit of your calling. Music should invite the Spirit, help you focus on the work, and direct your thoughts and feelings to the Savior. Do not listen to music that pulls your thoughts away from your work, merely entertains, has romantic lyrics or overtones, or dulls your spiritual sensitivity by its tempo, beat, loudness, lyrics, or intensity.
Listening to music must never interfere with your personal preparation or proselyting.
If you have any questions about music, discuss them with your mission president.”

Beyond This it was up to us to decide. There were often debates about what specific music was ok and was not. EFY, Christian rock/pop, non-religious instrumentals, classical music, etc. everyone seemed to have a slightly different standard and all had it confirmed by them by the spirit.

2) among other places, the missionary handbook says this about wearing your temple garments:

”Endowed members should wear the garment both night and day, according to the instructions given in the endowment. You should not adjust the garment or wear it contrary to instructions in order to fit different styles of clothing, even when such clothing may be generally accepted. When two-piece garments are used, both pieces should always be worn.
You should not remove, either entirely or partially, the garment for activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly under the clothing. Nor should you remove it to lounge around your quarters. When you must remove the garment, you should put it back on as soon as possible.”

I have witnessed and participated in discussion about whether it is acceptable to not wear garments while exercising or playing sports. Both sides feel they have received confirmation that their approach is acceptable.

3) there have been many celebrities in sports and outside of sports that have chosen to forgo their missions and stay home and pursue their current chosen activities. I have seen and participated in discussions on whether it is acceptable to put off a mission for a separate activity, all sides involved tend to believe they have received confirmation that their approach is correct.

 

So in situations like these, is their a right or wrong, or is one person going to receive condemnation for choosing one side while another won’t because they received different guidance.

(Note: I don’t want to debate certain topics mentioned, but rather the topic of this thread. How personal is personal revelation?)

Edited June 10, 2018 by Fether

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

So in situations like these, is their a right or wrong, or is one person going to receive condemnation for choosing one side while another won’t because they received different guidance.

Very personal.

i've read a few books on Mother Teresa.  Very interesting.  She believed in the divinity of her church leaders.  And those leaders actually fought her tooth and nail initially to convince her not to serve the destitute in the slums of India.  Despite that, she believed in them as much if not more than the average Mormon believes about their prophet.

Who is right, who is wrong?  

Personally, the conclusion that i've come to is that "right" answer is less important than being good.  That perhaps it's more important whether one's beliefs bring about a state inner goodness - or at least put you on that track.

Are there absolutes?  Definitely.  But do they extend to things like musical preferences or where you don't wear your garments or if/when you go on a mission?  Or for me, even what church you attend?  From where i sit, no, i don't think so.

And honestly, i've rarely seen it do any good to criticize someone else's revelation as being wrong.  Even IF you're right, it usually serves to just drive them further into what you are criticizing

If you have a good heart and are trying your best and hoping that God and Jesus will guide you, i don't believe you're going to end up in any place but the best possible.

But i'm generally considered an evil apostate , so consume  these words with however much salt you feel is necessary. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by lostinwater

[Fether]

56 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

If you have a good heart and are trying your best and hoping that God and Jesus will guide you, i don't believe you're going to end up in any place but the best possible.

I generally agree with this statement, but where I fall of is that there are plenty of people that do this very thing that are not following the commandments of God even after having received it.

My question is, are the stances like the ones above where one person receive guidance to not wear garments during sports games and another receive guidance that he must? 

[lostinwater]

38 minutes ago, Fether said:

I generally agree with this statement, but where I fall of is that there are plenty of people that do this very thing that are not following the commandments of God even after having received it.

My question is, are the stances like the ones above where one person receive guidance to not wear garments during sports games and another receive guidance that he must? 

Thanks.  Well, i guess i don't have an answer to your question the way you are looking at it.

i look at it like, "How to do resolve the fact that two people cannot agree on the proper way to eat a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup - after having received confirmation that their way is the only correct way?" .  It's certainly a debate - even one that can get a bit heated.  But for me, an unnecessary amount of importance and God involvement has been assumed.  And that as long as your way includes being willing to split it in half and share with your hungry friend, i think just about any answer is acceptable.  That's not meant to be insulting.  i fully realize that many new-age spiritualists or a dozen other types look at my personal beliefs with the same lens of irrelevance that i am using here.  

That said, i respect that many other extremely good people do not view the question that way.  As you're asking it, the best i can do is to mostly forget what the other person is doing, follow your own very genuine conscience, and correct if/when you feel you should.   Sorry, i know that answer isn't sufficient.  Lots of smarter people will look at this tomorrow and perhaps can provide insight from a viewpoint closer to your own.

Great question, though!

Edited June 10, 2018 by lostinwater

[estradling75]

God is the master teacher and his teaching are highly individualized.  (aka people need and get different things from different lessons)

This is not to say there is not a standard or a common set of teachings... That is delivered by God through his prophets and church.

Beyond that everything else is for us personally.  We make a pretty big error when we try to impose our "personal lesson" plan on others. (Usually by claiming that it is the only correct way to understand the Standard or Common set the prophets have given us)

[Jane_Doe]

Obviously there's somethings which have been declared to the world "do this" or "don't do this"--- the 10 commandments, the 2 great ones, LoC, WoW, etc.  Those are pretty set in stone.

For other things (like specific musics, clothes, etc)... frankly, the clothes your wear in and of themselves are not that important.  Same with what songs you listen to, wether you watch tv on Sunday, and a whole host of other little things ---  there is no universal letter of the law there and the letter isn't that important.  What's important is YOUR heart and helping YOUR bond with Christ.  That is VERY individualized and there isn't a universal "right" to it.  Hence many Bob can get an answer that's totally different from Mike's answer-- because that's what Bob needs to hear, and Mike needs to do Mike's instructions.

For a random example (since I have dinner on my mind):

-- In my ward there's "Sally" who always talks about how (for her) part of keeping the Sabbath is not cooking that day, and instead eating leftovers or freezer meals.  She compares it to the Israelites not gathering mana on the Sabbath, and speaks about how that burden being lifted is such a blessing and makes her feel closer to the Lord.  

-- For me, sitting in the same pew, I spend HOURS on Sunday cooking.  It's a huge production with everyone being involved, having a great family time, enjoying ourselves.  Cooking on Sundays makes me feel closer to the Lord.

Now, is it right or wrong to cook on Sunday-- am I or Sally right in this regard?  That's a trick question: because in the big picture it doesn't matter whether or not you cook on Sunday.  What matters is bringing your heart to the Lord-- for me that's cooking with my family, for Sally that's specifically not cooking.  Individual lessons for individual people.  

[Anddenex]

Personal revelation is correlated with the truth(s) we are praying to know. Our personal revelation will ultimately determine the glory we receive in the next life. The Lord has specifically stated to be careful on calling good evil and evil good. If you listen to people's communications all this is rooted in personal revelation, and how often we are hearing there is no "truth" -- just your "truth." This is false -- in totality.

If we review the information you have provided, except for #3, these are based on principles. As the prophet Joseph Smith stated, "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." The statement regarding music is based upon principles, and should be correlated with the thirteenth article of faith, "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." Even within personal revelation there are boundaries the Lord has set, and it is our responsibility to follow them.

When seeking personal revelation regarding commandments (i.e. missionary work for the priesthood holders, and others) we have to keep in mind the following verse of scripture, "I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction." (emphasis added, source)

Personal revelation, when received in counsel against what God has given, may lead to our personal destruction, unless we repent. As we are not to make eternal judgements, we can easily make temporal judgements when an action (even if said to be done by personal revelation) is wrong. Example with music, "Listen only to music that is consistent with the sacred spirit of your calling." If I am listening to the following music and the lyrics are as such, "Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind), " it shouldn't be hard to see (no matter how strong one wants to say this is "personal" revelation) this isn't conducive to the sacred spirit of our calling as missionaries. God has gifted us with discernment, and this is easily to discern. If a person is listening to music that is Sacrilegious, again it doesn't take a genius to recognize this isn't conducive to the sacred spirit of our calling.

Personal revelation regarding which Church we belong to is very important to the Lord, otherwise we wouldn't have missionary work, and we wouldn't have less active work.

The commandment to multiply and replenish the earth is both collective and personal. If a person were to say, "I received personal revelation that I am not to have any children." I can easily discern this is not in accordance with the commandment. How many children a couple has is between them and the Lord, and obviously it can be different (personal) for couples. The question is whether or not they have truly brought the Lord into the situation, and again that is between them and the Lord.

The Lord is able to teach us many things through scripture that apply to us personally. These are wonderful experiences, but if a person were to say, "I received personal revelation while studying the scriptures that the Church of Jesus Christ is not the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, " again, it doesn't take the spirit of discernment to see this person is not following the right spirit (no matter how much they proclaim personal revelation), and we receive our eternal glory according to the spirit which we listed to obey.

EDIT: So in relation to principles, personal revelation and different choices can both be correct as long as we are truly following and applying the "correct" principle. A person that chooses to listen to Classical Music only, or a person that chooses to listen only to Church Hymns -- both are correct, as they easily fit within the principle, "Listen only to music that is consistent with the sacred spirit of your calling."

A real question though, have both sides truly received "revelation" or have they actually just acted on how they feel. These are different, and not the same thing. When I have heard conversations pertaining to garments, I honestly have never heard anyone say, "I have had confirmation." I often hear, this is what "feels" right to me, and feeling right and confirmation I have come to understand are not always the same thing.

Example, I do not wear my garments when playing sports. If someone feels they should that is fine. I haven't received any confirmation, and honestly I haven't knelt down and specifically asked either, which is what I often experience with others. They share what they "feel" not what has actually been confirmed.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Anddenex

[zil]

IMO, there is another principle in play here, and that is the degree of our understanding.  Where more is given, more is required.  So, a good choice for a drug dealer (one that would lead him away from (worse) sin) would be unspeakably wicked for the priesthood holder who lives up the street.  And what would be a good choice for that priesthood holder (leading him closer to Christ than he is at present), might be unspeakably wicked for one of the three Nephites.

This may not exactly mean that the "good" choices are righteous (they may or may not be), just that given where each person is, what constitutes a good (better, and best) choice will vary, but all of them will point in the right direction.  Our "good" should gradually become unacceptable, and what used to be "better" should gradually become just good, and what used to be "best" should gradually seem only better as we discover new bests.  This seems to me the instantiation of "eternal progression" or "line upon line, precept upon precept".

[CV75]

On 6/9/2018 at 11:07 PM, Fether said:

So in situations like these, is their a right or wrong, or is one person going to receive condemnation for choosing one side while another won’t because they received different guidance.

If someone believes his decision is based on personal revelation, that is his responsibility and business and the consequences are his. Some decisions may run up against the standards for a recommend or other worthiness interview, in which case he may need to seek additional revelation. We don't have to believe in others' personal revelation or that they even received it, but we are still called to be charitable toward them.

[Traveler]

I believe personal revelation is more about becoming “one” in heart and mind with G-d and his saints.  I believe this is more about understanding the laws, ordinance and covenants of G-d and less about doctrine (information) more about being than doing – also more about becoming than accomplishing – more about a process and a journey than a destination.  And more about where someone is going than where they have been.

 

The Traveler

[BJ64]

On 6/9/2018 at 11:58 PM, Fether said:

I generally agree with this statement, but where I fall of is that there are plenty of people that do this very thing that are not following the commandments of God even after having received it.

My question is, are the stances like the ones above where one person receive guidance to not wear garments during sports games and another receive guidance that he must? 

The handbook says it’s okay to remove them during sports when necessary so it’s not something I’d worry too much about. 

 

[Grunt]

On 6/10/2018 at 1:58 AM, Fether said:

My question is, are the stances like the ones above where one person receive guidance to not wear garments during sports games and another receive guidance that he must? 

 

I believe there are some things are individual, some things aren't.  For example, we are told to tithe.  How we tithe is personal.  We are told to wear garments and given fairly specific instructions, but not exact.  

I view a Commandment or Directive like a tree branch.  We ALL start at the same place.  We stay that way for quite some time, then we all begin to have special circumstances.  Some special circumstances appear further down the branch than others.  That is where revelation becomes personal.  What God may tell you may not apply to me.  The general principle still applies to us both, but He may have a different plan for you, or a different lesson, or more lenience due to your personality or issues.  Who knows.  

My advice would be always follow the church.  If you can't follow the church, follow your personal revelation.  Seldom follow what you read on a message board in these situations.  Yes, I see the irony.

OBVIOUSLY, this isn't doctrine.  These are just the thoughts of one bozo still wet behind the ears.

[Fether]

8 hours ago, BJ64 said:

The handbook says it’s okay to remove them during sports when necessary so it’s not something I’d worry too much about. 

 

Im curious as to where that is? Can you provide a reference?

[zil]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Im curious as to where that is? Can you provide a reference?

Curious if he finds something I can't find / remember, but this is the only thing I know of in HB2 about wearing the garment:

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#21.1.42

[BJ64]

4 hours ago, zil said:

Curious if he finds something I can't find / remember, but this is the only thing I know of in HB2 about wearing the garment:

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#21.1.42

What you posted is what I was thinking about. It says swimming but I would include in that any sport that has to be done wearing a specific type of clothing that would not cover garments. 

From the statement often read during recommend interviews,

“When they must remove the garment, such as for swimming, they should put it back on as soon as possible.

 

Members who have made covenants in the temple should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment.”

I take from this second statement that we are to decide for ourselves with the help of The Spirit how to wear the garment rather than to ask others.

It says the garment when worn properly protects against temptation and evil  I do Taekwondo and I don’t wear my garments because the top of the uniform is open quite low and would not cover the garment. My wife is usually with me so I told her it’s her job to protect me from temptation and evil while I’m wearing my Taekwondo uniform.