what authority does the church have to disipline a member?

[VelvetShadow]

Just now, Grunt said:

Then I guess your only option is to get on your knees and ask Heavenly Father.

I have sincerely done that every night and my answer is I need more information, I'm not going to ignore God

[VelvetShadow]

Double post

Edited August 23, 2018 by VelvetShadow

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Isn't everything forgiven at baptism? The way I see it there is no harm and I"m not breaking any covenants because I haven't made any.

Why stop there? Go fornicate with your neighbor. Shoot up heroin. Rob a 7-11. Kill someone. It'll all be forgiven at baptism, right?

(My snarkiness is meant to be funny, not cutting and mean.)

That's not how it works, VelvetShadow. Intentionally sinning with the idea of playing a "Get Out of Jail Free" card at baptism is simply hypocrisy. To be forgiven, you must realize that you have sinned, and sinning intentionally is simply a very painful and bad way of trying to repent. Don't do that to yourself.

[VelvetShadow]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Why stop there? Go fornicate with your neighbor. Shoot up heroin. Rob a 7-11. Kill someone. It'll all be forgiven at baptism, right?

(My snarkiness is meant to be funny, not cutting and mean.)

That's not how it works, VelvetShadow. Intentionally sinning with the idea of playing a "Get Out of Jail Free" card at baptism is simply hypocrisy. To be forgiven, you must realize that you have sinned, and sinning intentionally is simply a very painful and bad way of trying to repent. Don't do that to yourself.

I can't join if I don't have all the information, I will do what God prompts me to do, and right now I am being prompted to know exactly what happens in the temple

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Shoot up heroin. Rob a 7-11.

Stop describing my Saturday night plans. 

[Just_A_Guy]

8 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Isn't everything forgiven at baptism? The way I see it there is no harm and I"m not breaking any covenants because I haven't made any.  It might not be a popular choice to you guys but to me it might just be the only way I can comfortably join the LDS church, and isn't that the most important thing?

Deliberately doing something you have reason to believe God won’t like, planning that He will forgive you after-the-fact, is certainly something we all fall into from time to time; but it also makes it that much harder to develop the sort of relationship with Him that we want.

It’s like me going out and blowing $350 on a miter saw without discussing it with my wife first—sure, I could do that, and my marriage would probably survive, and I might even get to keep the saw.  But does the whole process really strengthen my marriage and make me a better person?  

[Vort]

Just now, VelvetShadow said:

I can't join if I don't have all the information, I will do what God prompts me to do, and right now I am being prompted to know exactly what happens in the temple

If you truly feel that you are being prompted to view an unauthorized recording of temple ceremonies, then your prompting is coming from Satan, not from God, and will work only to your hurt and destruction.

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Stop describing my Saturday night plans. 

Sounds like a great party.  You should invite @mirkwood.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

Sounds like a great party.  You should invite @mirkwood.

Who do you think is providing the....

 

never mind. 

[Just_A_Guy]

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Who do you think is providing the....

 

never mind. 

Oh, they gave him his key back for the evidence room, did they?

’Atta boy, Mirkey.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Oh, they gave him his key back for the evidence room, did they?

’Atta boy, Mirkey.

You are invited, but you need to bring your own weed. Call @Vort, he's from the weed capital of the world-Seattle. 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You are invited, but you need to bring your own weed. Call @Vort, he's from the weed capital of the world-Seattle. 

No matter.  I’ll just visit Mirkwood at work for a little . . . “evidence review” later this week.  

Trial preparation, of course.  

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

of course.  

Of course. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. 

[Just_A_Guy]

( @VelvetShadow, apologies for the inside jokes here.  @mirkwood is a police officer by profession, and I’m a state attorney.  Which means we get really dark senses of humor.  @MormonGator, on the other hand . . . I don’t know what his excuse is.)

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

  @MormonGator, on the other hand . . . I don’t know what his excuse is.)

Mom was a nurse. My sense of humor is far more twisted and morbid than anyone else because of that! 

Edited August 23, 2018 by MormonGator

[VelvetShadow]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

If you truly feel that you are being prompted to view an unauthorized recording of temple ceremonies, then your prompting is coming from Satan, not from God, and will work only to your hurt and destruction.

I am being prompted by GOD not satan, to know exactly what I am getting into before I get into it

[VelvetShadow]

26 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Deliberately doing something you have reason to believe God won’t like, planning that He will forgive you after-the-fact, is certainly something we all fall into from time to time; but it also makes it that much harder to develop the sort of relationship with Him that we want.

It’s like me going out and blowing $350 on a miter saw without discussing it with my wife first—sure, I could do that, and my marriage would probably survive, and I might even get to keep the saw.  But does the whole process really strengthen my marriage and make me a better person?  

That's the point though, I have no way of knowing that God won't like it, only the word of a church I am looking at joining who won't give me all the information I need to make an informed decision as to whether to join it or not

[zil]

4 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I am being prompted by GOD not satan, to know exactly what I am getting into before I get into it

I tend to think there's been too much said here too quickly to give it all the consideration it deserves, so I'm reluctant to add to it, but....

How can you expect to know everything? Nothing is excluded from everything. I've been in the Church almost 50 years and I know I don't know everything. Those scriptures I posted earlier are about how God teaches line upon line - in other words not all at once. They are not all unique to the Church-that principle is in the bible too. Given this teaching, are you sure God is telling you to learn everything? Perhaps it's simply more. And perhaps it's not factual more, but spiritual and experiential more.

I guess I'm just asking you to reconsider, later, when you're not rushed to reply, some of the things said here. Continue to study, ponder, and pray. Double check your thoughts and feelings against scripture. Double check that you're not misinterpreting the details.

There's no need to reply to any of this here - this is a personal and long-term journey, and that's ok.

[VelvetShadow]

9 minutes ago, zil said:

I tend to think there's been too much said here too quickly to give it all the consideration it deserves, so I'm reluctant to add to it, but....

How can you expect to know everything? Nothing is excluded from everything. I've been in the Church almost 50 years and I know I don't know everything. Those scriptures I posted earlier are about how God teaches line upon line - in other words not all at once. They are not all unique to the Church-that principle is in the bible too. Given this teaching, are you sure God is telling you to learn everything? Perhaps it's simply more. And perhaps it's not factual more, but spiritual and experiential more.

I guess I'm just asking you to reconsider, later, when you're not rushed to reply, some of the things said here. Continue to study, ponder, and pray. Double check your thoughts and feelings against scripture. Double check that you're not misinterpreting the details.

There's no need to reply to any of this here - this is a personal and long-term journey, and that's ok.

Thank you for saying all this to me, I do appreciate it.

I don't expect to know everything, but it does leave a very bad taste in my mouth when there are things that are 'no you can't know that yet' not just as an investigator but even as a member I still can't know until I am worthy to attend the temple.

Maybe I'll change my mind but right now I don't like it, I don't think its right, and because of it I am not joining the church at this time until I understand the temple and what happens there.  I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm not trying to be argumentative but that is my opinion, that is where I am at, and that is the way it is for me.

I pray every night with a sincere heart to know what to do about this situation and my answer is that I need more information, so that is what I am going to do, get that information, because that is what God is telling me to do

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, VelvetShadow said:

Thank you for saying all this to me, I do appreciate it.

I don't expect to know everything, but it does leave a very bad taste in my mouth when there are things that are 'no you can't know that yet' not just as an investigator but even as a member I still can't know until I am worthy to attend the temple.

Maybe I'll change my mind but right now I don't like it, I don't think its right, and because of it I am not joining the church at this time until I understand the temple and what happens there.  I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm not trying to be argumentative but that is my opinion, that is where I am at, and that is the way it is for me.

I pray every night with a sincere heart to know what to do about this situation and my answer is that I need more information, so that is what I am going to do, get that information, because that is what God is telling me to do

Take this for what it's worth.  This advice and 50 cents will buy you a gumball.

As an investigator, I was ready to leave the and stop investigating over something that was causing me pain.  I couldn't wrap my brain around something in the church.  I'd prayed for some time, asked members, and asked missionaries.  Nobody and nothing could help me.  

Then, while out of state, I stopped by a temple and spoke to the missionaries there.  They couldn't help me either, but as I was leaving one asked me "have you tried praying not for answers, but to just be OK with the things you don't understand and are causing you trouble?"   I went back to my hotel and prayed for that with all sincerity.  I woke up the next morning free of worry and ready to be baptized.

Maybe it will help you.

[VelvetShadow]

Just now, Grunt said:

Take this for what it's worth.  This advice and 50 cents will buy you a gumball.

As an investigator, I was ready to leave the and stop investigating over something that was causing me pain.  I couldn't wrap my brain around something in the church.  I'd prayed for some time, asked members, and asked missionaries.  Nobody and nothing could help me.  

Then, while out of state, I stopped by a temple and spoke to the missionaries there.  They couldn't help me either, but as I was leaving one asked me "have you tried praying not for answers, but to just be OK with the things you don't understand and are causing you trouble?"   I went back to my hotel and prayed for that with all sincerity.  I woke up the next morning free of worry and ready to be baptized.

Maybe it will help you.

thank you, this actually makes sense to me and I'll definitely give it a go

[Just_A_Guy]

35 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

That's the point though, I have no way of knowing that God won't like it, only the word of a church I am looking at joining who won't give me all the information I need to make an informed decision as to whether to join it or not

I guess here’s where I scratch my head a little (and I’m just throwing out reactions, and don’t mean to put you on the spot):

I think it’s a pretty safe inference that the Church, as an institution, doesn’t want detailed info about its temple liturgies to be “out there”.  The Church is also pretty sure it’s doing this on divine instructions.  

If the Church is wrongfully concealing information about its temple liturgies, then it isn’t what it claims to be; and there’s your answer about baptism.

On the other hand, if you think God’s telling you that the Church is what it claims to be,  then it seems to me that one is probably going to get the most out of it by going through the investigation/admittance process that the Church has laid out and making a good-faith effort to conform to *all* of its standards.

There are certainly “heterodox” church members who can somehow reconcile accepting some facets of what we perceive as the Gospel of Jesus Christ whilst openly rejecting others; but the nature of the Church’s teachings and the structure of its congregations and governance wil tend to make that a very hard and lonely path to walk.

[zil]

1 hour ago, VelvetShadow said:

I don't expect to know everything, but it does leave a very bad taste in my mouth when there are things that are 'no you can't know that yet' not just as an investigator but even as a member I still can't know until I am worthy to attend the temple.

It probably doesn't help (we all have our unique difficulties with something) but at least you're not alone in this not knowing. Maybe talk in person to a young lifetime member who's not endowed yet to get their perspective. (Just a suggestion. )

1 hour ago, VelvetShadow said:

I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm not trying to be argumentative but that is my opinion, that is where I am at, and that is the way it is for me.

No worries. If anyone gets upset, they'll get over it.   Like I said, we've all got that thing we struggle with, and we just have to keep searching as best we know how until we find an answer. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by zil

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

( @VelvetShadow, apologies for the inside jokes here.  @mirkwood is a police officer by profession, and I’m a state attorney.  Which means we get really dark senses of humor.  @MormonGator, on the other hand . . . I don’t know what his excuse is.)

No excuse for Gator!

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

No excuse for Gator!

Gator's excuse is that he's from Florida.