We need a testimony of the Gospel and we need to bear that testimony

[JohnsonJones]

I have come to realize that many people who fall away from the church do so because they feel they have a testimony in the church, but not in the gospel.  Furthermore, their testimony in the church is one which is based on a false reality of what the church is, rather than what their wording actually means.

There are many who go up to bear their testimony and in that testimony they state, they know the church is true.  What does this mean?  They might never say they know the gospel is true, or that the gospel is revealed truth, but I hear all the time how people know the church is true.

D&C 1:30 states

Quote

And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have ^apower to lay the foundation of this ^bchurch, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of ^cdarkness, the only true and living ^dchurch upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well ^epleased, ^fspeaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

But what does it mean when he says the only true and living church?

Joseph Smith himself answers this in one way when he talked about when he was young and seeking to know which church was “right.”

Joseph Smith History 18-19

Quote

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

So what does this indicate?

It means that when we talk of the church being the true church we mean that it is the right church, the church which has the correct doctrines and commandments of the Lord.  It is the church which has the correct gospel.  It is also a living church, a church which the Lord still leads actively and gives revelation to.

Another way to look at the church is that the church is true.  When one states that this is the true church, it is different than saying a church is true.  What does it mean when we state an object is true.  We can say that the Bible is true; meaning that it has correct truths, but we can also say a sword is true.  If we say it is a true sword that simply means it is actually a sword and now something else.  If we say the sword is true, in many instances we mean that this sword will not fail when put to the test.

This can also apply to the church.  When we say the church is true, it can also mean that this church will never fail, that it will stand till the millennium comes.

I’ve come to the realization that in many instances when someone says the church is true in their testimony, they are talking about something entirely different than what I stated above.  They either believe that the church and the gospel are ONE thing inseparably the same, OR that the church is infallible. 

Both are incorrect and I think is a major reason for some falling away from the church.

I came to this realization this summer while abroad.  Part of that group were 3 graduate students that were helping me in research.  What was unusual was that these were three ex-members of the church, or so they claimed.  They were VERY opposed to the LDS church and had many arguments against it.

I came to realize that all of their arguments lay in regards to the history of the church itself.  Their discussions pertained to things such as speeches Brigham Young gave, discrepancies between what church leaders stated previously and what they feel church leaders stated today, policies the church had in the past towards woman, minorities and others which are changed today, focuses on the character of Joseph Smith or other church leaders, and many other things.

When categorizing what their complaints were it universally seemed to come down to complaints about the church itself, but not necessarily about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Their focus was on things in history that they felt proved that the church leaders or that Joseph Smith or other things with the church had sinned or changed.

Their problem did not seem to be with the actual gospel at its core, but finding things in the history of the church that they felt was wrong, or a horrible item that they attached to.  These things they felt broke their “shelf” as they put it and they were attempting to convince me that they were correct and that I should follow suit.

They were not successful.

The question then is WHY?  I acknowledged to them on some instances that they appeared to be correct.  In some I didn’t agree, but there were things that bothered them tremendously, but did not bother me.  Why?  Because while they had their picture of an infallible church torn apart, I have never had the illusion that church leaders themselves need to be perfect, or that they are infallible.  My testimony isn’t reliant that Joseph Smith never sinned or never made mistakes.  It is not dependent on the idea that Brigham Young was infallible or perfect. 

My testimony is that the gospel is true, that it tells us the true principles and commandments and that it lays the foundation for us to return to our Father.  My testimony is that through the gospel and revelation to a prophet that we have been given the correct ordinances that help us receive salvation and exaltation. 

It is NOT based on the idea that Joseph Smith himself was perfect and never committed sin.  It is NOT based on the idea that the church leaders are infallible and have never made mistakes in policy or administration, or even in their personal lives. 

We KNOW throughout the Bible that many prophets and apostles made mistakes.  Peter himself who is perhaps one of the greatest apostles had several times when he was admonished by the Lord.  If one focused on the faults of Peter many times they would miss the indelible truths he brought forth.

One of my favorite stories is when Peter looks out upon the stormy waves of the sea and finds the Lord walking on the water to them.  Peter, in his exuberance jumps out of the boat and starts walking towards the Lord.  Then, as he walks, he starts to notice the wind and starts to sink.  The Lord reaches out and saves peter and admonishes him,

Quote

O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Many thus find the story about doubt and about Peter.  They focus on Peter failing, but to me the story is the exact opposite.  Yes, the Lord is speaking to Peter, but if Peter had to improve, what does it say about US?

Peter had enough faith to actually WALK on water.  Think about that.  Peter was literally walking on the water.  No invisible planks underneath (many magic tricks that show this have an invisible plank they walk on), no illusions, he was literally walking on water.  How many of us have enough faith to do this?

Personally, I’ve NEVER seen anyone do this in real life, and yet Peter had enough faith to actually WALK on the Water.  Yes, his faith began to waiver and he began to sink, but he HAD the faith to walk for a bit.  That’s a TON of faith.  This story then is a reflection on us much more than Peter.  If Peter was of little faith, than for us who cannot walk on water…we surely lack even more and doubt far more than Peter.

However, as is the world, many focus on this as a failing of Peter and not so much a commentary on ourselves.  In many ways, when we look at our own history and the mistakes of prophets, people do not see it as a reflection of how we ourselves need to be better, but as criticism of those leaders instead.  As it shows that our leaders were NOT infallible men the same as the Lord, they let it tear them apart.  As their testimony is BASED upon the idea that a true church is infallible and that the leaders of it therefore are also infallible and perfect, when they find out this is not true, they fall away.

After this experience of many weeks of these three students discussing this and throwing many of these things at me, I feel that people need to start focusing MORE on bearing their testimonies of the gospel itself.  It is the GOSPEL that we need to have a strong testimony of, as it is there we find the commandments that lead us to the Lord.  It is there we find the correct principles that guide us to heaven.

The church is led be the Prophet and thus by revelation from the Lord, but other than that, it is STILL led by men for the most part.  This is because the church is NOT for the Lord (the Lord could raise up children and followers from the stones of the earth if he wished, he does not actually NEED us for anything), but FOR MEN (which means men and women).  The church is a vehicle which has men as its leaders, to lead other men and women in the ordinances of salvation.  Hopefully this means those men are LED by revelation themselves, but this is not always the case, and when men make mistakes due to not following revelation, or not being led by it, or making decisions of their own volition, this only shows that they are still people like the rest of us with flaws and tendencies to overcome.  They are still trying to achieve perfection just like everyone else.

Only the LORD was perfect in this life, and to base one’s testimony on the idea that all leaders of the church and thus all their decisions are also perfect is the “perfect” way to lose that testimony because it is a FALSE testimony to begin with.

On the other hand, having a testimony that the gospel is true is what keeps you with the church and the gospel itself.  To know that Jesus Christ is our Savior and through him we are saved, to know that Jesus loves all of us and gave us our free agency to choose good or evil, and to know that Jesus Christ gave us commandments and knowledge to make us more like him is important. 

The church on the otherhand is the vessel in which the gospel is contained, but it is NOT the gospel itself.  It is the only vessel in which the fullness of the gospel is carried, and it is the only place where we can find the correct ordinances.  Thus, we can say the church is true or that this is the true church.  It is the only “right” church,  or where the full gospel is contained or preached.  However, it is NOT the same thing as the gospel itself.   This IS the Church of Jesus Christ, meaning it is led by him.  It is NOT the first variation of the Church however, this church has come before, and all those churches that were led by Jesus Christ were ALSO True churches that contained his gospel.  However, this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, as it is for us in the Latter days. 

Bearing testimony that this is the true church is important, but it is also important that when we bear this testimony that we KNOW what we are saying. 

I feel it is of even more importance today to bear testimony that the gospel in the church is true, that the GOSPEL is true.  WE also bear testimony of the atonement, the book of Mormon, and many other things within the gospel, but it is important to base our testimony upon the Gospel and the Holy ghost  which bears witness that the things found in the Book of Mormon and the gospel principles themselves are true and correct.

I bore my testimony to these young graduate students this summer.  It was of little effect.  They had already made up their minds.  They were very bitter towards the church.  However, it seemed that they were bitter towards the CHURCH overall, and it was this that led them to debate gospel principles.  When faced with the actual gospel itself they either disavowed it entirely (including the existence of the Lord), not due to proof they had, but ironically, out of an almost faithlike devotion to the belief that the Lord did not exist...OR…they acknowledged that they still believed in the Lord and his ability to save mankind from sin, but not necessarily the LDS rendition of it.  Thus the core value of the gospel, the Atonement of Jesus Christ to save all men was something that they could not refute of themselves in the same way that they held arguments against the church.  The gospel was STILL stalwart and something that cannot simply be proven to be wrong or that the precepts of men hold sway.

If one prays to know that the Book of Mormon is true and receives and answer from the Holy Ghost that it is, I feel this is a VITAL thing we need to remember and hold onto.  Too often, these young people then try to reason away that this feeling was of their own making or try to dilute it.  On their own they thus make it so that they forget the feeling and dilute their own ability to feel it in their lives to reinforce their own testimony of the Book of Mormon of the Lord’s atonement.

If one KNOWS without a doubt that the Book of Mormon is true because they KNOW that the Holy Ghost has told them this, they know that it must have been translated and revealed to Joseph Smith correctly.  That he IS a prophet and that he thus talked and communed with the Lord.  In this we can KNOW that the church that the Lord brought forth through him IS the True church, or the church which was established is the one that teaches for doctrines the commandments of the Lord and that it is the RIGHT church.

So, the thing on this overly long post (and yes, it’s been a while, I’ve been away, and then jet lag was a killer when I got back, been a while trying to get back on schedule) I want to impress is that we NEED to have a testimony of the gospel, and we NEED to include it in our testimonies just as much as when we say the church is true.  We need to base our testimonies NOT on just the idea that the church relays the correct gospel doctrine, but that the gospel itself is correct and teaches us the truth. 

Hence why my topic is, we need to testify that the Gospel is true…because after seeing how these young people fell away from the church and how it seems it was due to them having this illusionary testimony that the church has never had differences or changes and was infallible, I feel impressed that if they had focused instead on the truths found in the gospel itself rather than focusing on church history, they would still have at testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the prophets today.

Just my Looooong post making up for lost time this summer while I was away…J

[Guest]

I didn't endure the entire thing.  But I got the gist of it.

Yup.

[Anddenex]

5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I’ve come to the realization that in many instances when someone says the church is true in their testimony, they are talking about something entirely different than what I stated above.  They either believe that the church and the gospel are ONE thing inseparably the same, OR that the church is infallible.  

Yep, I agree with the sentiment of this post, and particularly these sentences. I, personally, haven't been fond of the statement, "I know the Church is true," because of the above. This is in part why you have members who have written articles "The Church has failed us..." And thus we experience more whining in the wilderness.

When we meet with the stake presidency as high councilor a common thread I am hearing/observing is how people are committed to the Church and not the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have created an illusion of how "the Church" should be and when it doesn't match their fallacy they experience a faith crisis (similar to the three men you spoke of).

It is not to say that these "faith crisis" aren't important either. We know through the gospel of Jesus Christ our faith will be tested. These test are to help us to see more clearly. To see more clearly what actually is, what actually was, and what will always be.

[Overwatch]

Oh my. You are burning bright this week. I feel hope again, "hearing" this come from another member. Thank you.

[BJ64]

On 9/3/2018 at 8:48 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I have come to realize that many people who fall away from the church do so because they feel they have a testimony in the church, but not in the gospel.  Furthermore, their testimony in the church is one which is based on a false reality of what the church is, rather than what their wording actually means.

There are many who go up to bear their testimony and in that testimony they state, they know the church is true.  What does this mean?  They might never say they know the gospel is true, or that the gospel is revealed truth, but I hear all the time how people know the church is true.

D&C 1:30 states

But what does it mean when he says the only true and living church?

Joseph Smith himself answers this in one way when he talked about when he was young and seeking to know which church was “right.”

Joseph Smith History 18-19

So what does this indicate?

It means that when we talk of the church being the true church we mean that it is the right church, the church which has the correct doctrines and commandments of the Lord.  It is the church which has the correct gospel.  It is also a living church, a church which the Lord still leads actively and gives revelation to.

Another way to look at the church is that the church is true.  When one states that this is the true church, it is different than saying a church is true.  What does it mean when we state an object is true.  We can say that the Bible is true; meaning that it has correct truths, but we can also say a sword is true.  If we say it is a true sword that simply means it is actually a sword and now something else.  If we say the sword is true, in many instances we mean that this sword will not fail when put to the test.

This can also apply to the church.  When we say the church is true, it can also mean that this church will never fail, that it will stand till the millennium comes.

I’ve come to the realization that in many instances when someone says the church is true in their testimony, they are talking about something entirely different than what I stated above.  They either believe that the church and the gospel are ONE thing inseparably the same, OR that the church is infallible. 

Both are incorrect and I think is a major reason for some falling away from the church.

I came to this realization this summer while abroad.  Part of that group were 3 graduate students that were helping me in research.  What was unusual was that these were three ex-members of the church, or so they claimed.  They were VERY opposed to the LDS church and had many arguments against it.

I came to realize that all of their arguments lay in regards to the history of the church itself.  Their discussions pertained to things such as speeches Brigham Young gave, discrepancies between what church leaders stated previously and what they feel church leaders stated today, policies the church had in the past towards woman, minorities and others which are changed today, focuses on the character of Joseph Smith or other church leaders, and many other things.

When categorizing what their complaints were it universally seemed to come down to complaints about the church itself, but not necessarily about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Their focus was on things in history that they felt proved that the church leaders or that Joseph Smith or other things with the church had sinned or changed.

Their problem did not seem to be with the actual gospel at its core, but finding things in the history of the church that they felt was wrong, or a horrible item that they attached to.  These things they felt broke their “shelf” as they put it and they were attempting to convince me that they were correct and that I should follow suit.

They were not successful.

The question then is WHY?  I acknowledged to them on some instances that they appeared to be correct.  In some I didn’t agree, but there were things that bothered them tremendously, but did not bother me.  Why?  Because while they had their picture of an infallible church torn apart, I have never had the illusion that church leaders themselves need to be perfect, or that they are infallible.  My testimony isn’t reliant that Joseph Smith never sinned or never made mistakes.  It is not dependent on the idea that Brigham Young was infallible or perfect. 

My testimony is that the gospel is true, that it tells us the true principles and commandments and that it lays the foundation for us to return to our Father.  My testimony is that through the gospel and revelation to a prophet that we have been given the correct ordinances that help us receive salvation and exaltation. 

It is NOT based on the idea that Joseph Smith himself was perfect and never committed sin.  It is NOT based on the idea that the church leaders are infallible and have never made mistakes in policy or administration, or even in their personal lives. 

We KNOW throughout the Bible that many prophets and apostles made mistakes.  Peter himself who is perhaps one of the greatest apostles had several times when he was admonished by the Lord.  If one focused on the faults of Peter many times they would miss the indelible truths he brought forth.

One of my favorite stories is when Peter looks out upon the stormy waves of the sea and finds the Lord walking on the water to them.  Peter, in his exuberance jumps out of the boat and starts walking towards the Lord.  Then, as he walks, he starts to notice the wind and starts to sink.  The Lord reaches out and saves peter and admonishes him,

Many thus find the story about doubt and about Peter.  They focus on Peter failing, but to me the story is the exact opposite.  Yes, the Lord is speaking to Peter, but if Peter had to improve, what does it say about US?

Peter had enough faith to actually WALK on water.  Think about that.  Peter was literally walking on the water.  No invisible planks underneath (many magic tricks that show this have an invisible plank they walk on), no illusions, he was literally walking on water.  How many of us have enough faith to do this?

Personally, I’ve NEVER seen anyone do this in real life, and yet Peter had enough faith to actually WALK on the Water.  Yes, his faith began to waiver and he began to sink, but he HAD the faith to walk for a bit.  That’s a TON of faith.  This story then is a reflection on us much more than Peter.  If Peter was of little faith, than for us who cannot walk on water…we surely lack even more and doubt far more than Peter.

However, as is the world, many focus on this as a failing of Peter and not so much a commentary on ourselves.  In many ways, when we look at our own history and the mistakes of prophets, people do not see it as a reflection of how we ourselves need to be better, but as criticism of those leaders instead.  As it shows that our leaders were NOT infallible men the same as the Lord, they let it tear them apart.  As their testimony is BASED upon the idea that a true church is infallible and that the leaders of it therefore are also infallible and perfect, when they find out this is not true, they fall away.

After this experience of many weeks of these three students discussing this and throwing many of these things at me, I feel that people need to start focusing MORE on bearing their testimonies of the gospel itself.  It is the GOSPEL that we need to have a strong testimony of, as it is there we find the commandments that lead us to the Lord.  It is there we find the correct principles that guide us to heaven.

The church is led be the Prophet and thus by revelation from the Lord, but other than that, it is STILL led by men for the most part.  This is because the church is NOT for the Lord (the Lord could raise up children and followers from the stones of the earth if he wished, he does not actually NEED us for anything), but FOR MEN (which means men and women).  The church is a vehicle which has men as its leaders, to lead other men and women in the ordinances of salvation.  Hopefully this means those men are LED by revelation themselves, but this is not always the case, and when men make mistakes due to not following revelation, or not being led by it, or making decisions of their own volition, this only shows that they are still people like the rest of us with flaws and tendencies to overcome.  They are still trying to achieve perfection just like everyone else.

Only the LORD was perfect in this life, and to base one’s testimony on the idea that all leaders of the church and thus all their decisions are also perfect is the “perfect” way to lose that testimony because it is a FALSE testimony to begin with.

On the other hand, having a testimony that the gospel is true is what keeps you with the church and the gospel itself.  To know that Jesus Christ is our Savior and through him we are saved, to know that Jesus loves all of us and gave us our free agency to choose good or evil, and to know that Jesus Christ gave us commandments and knowledge to make us more like him is important. 

The church on the otherhand is the vessel in which the gospel is contained, but it is NOT the gospel itself.  It is the only vessel in which the fullness of the gospel is carried, and it is the only place where we can find the correct ordinances.  Thus, we can say the church is true or that this is the true church.  It is the only “right” church,  or where the full gospel is contained or preached.  However, it is NOT the same thing as the gospel itself.   This IS the Church of Jesus Christ, meaning it is led by him.  It is NOT the first variation of the Church however, this church has come before, and all those churches that were led by Jesus Christ were ALSO True churches that contained his gospel.  However, this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, as it is for us in the Latter days. 

Bearing testimony that this is the true church is important, but it is also important that when we bear this testimony that we KNOW what we are saying. 

I feel it is of even more importance today to bear testimony that the gospel in the church is true, that the GOSPEL is true.  WE also bear testimony of the atonement, the book of Mormon, and many other things within the gospel, but it is important to base our testimony upon the Gospel and the Holy ghost  which bears witness that the things found in the Book of Mormon and the gospel principles themselves are true and correct.

I bore my testimony to these young graduate students this summer.  It was of little effect.  They had already made up their minds.  They were very bitter towards the church.  However, it seemed that they were bitter towards the CHURCH overall, and it was this that led them to debate gospel principles.  When faced with the actual gospel itself they either disavowed it entirely (including the existence of the Lord), not due to proof they had, but ironically, out of an almost faithlike devotion to the belief that the Lord did not exist...OR…they acknowledged that they still believed in the Lord and his ability to save mankind from sin, but not necessarily the LDS rendition of it.  Thus the core value of the gospel, the Atonement of Jesus Christ to save all men was something that they could not refute of themselves in the same way that they held arguments against the church.  The gospel was STILL stalwart and something that cannot simply be proven to be wrong or that the precepts of men hold sway.

If one prays to know that the Book of Mormon is true and receives and answer from the Holy Ghost that it is, I feel this is a VITAL thing we need to remember and hold onto.  Too often, these young people then try to reason away that this feeling was of their own making or try to dilute it.  On their own they thus make it so that they forget the feeling and dilute their own ability to feel it in their lives to reinforce their own testimony of the Book of Mormon of the Lord’s atonement.

If one KNOWS without a doubt that the Book of Mormon is true because they KNOW that the Holy Ghost has told them this, they know that it must have been translated and revealed to Joseph Smith correctly.  That he IS a prophet and that he thus talked and communed with the Lord.  In this we can KNOW that the church that the Lord brought forth through him IS the True church, or the church which was established is the one that teaches for doctrines the commandments of the Lord and that it is the RIGHT church.

So, the thing on this overly long post (and yes, it’s been a while, I’ve been away, and then jet lag was a killer when I got back, been a while trying to get back on schedule) I want to impress is that we NEED to have a testimony of the gospel, and we NEED to include it in our testimonies just as much as when we say the church is true.  We need to base our testimonies NOT on just the idea that the church relays the correct gospel doctrine, but that the gospel itself is correct and teaches us the truth. 

Hence why my topic is, we need to testify that the Gospel is true…because after seeing how these young people fell away from the church and how it seems it was due to them having this illusionary testimony that the church has never had differences or changes and was infallible, I feel impressed that if they had focused instead on the truths found in the gospel itself rather than focusing on church history, they would still have at testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the prophets today.

Just my Looooong post making up for lost time this summer while I was away…J

Excellent, excellent post!

[theplains]

On 9/3/2018 at 10:48 AM, JohnsonJones said:

The church is led be the Prophet and thus by revelation from the Lord, but other than that, it is STILL led by men for the most part. 

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be
in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

Thanks,
Jim

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, theplains said:

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be
in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, if you would like to bear you're testimony here, you're welcome to (LDS or non).  But MormonHub has rules specifically against attacking the LDS faith and this style Protestant proselytization is not welcome.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, theplains said:

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

No. It just means the teaching is false -- though effectively, that's the same as saying it originated from Satan.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be
in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

Thanks,
Jim

If what you are proposing were true then surely it would be a false teaching, nothing more nor less. But, if it is true, and I believe it is, then it would be you whose questioning originated with Satan.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[BJ64]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be
in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

Thanks,
Jim

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a god as the church teaches then the teaching would be false but since he is a man who progressed into becoming a god as the church teaches, the teaching is true. 

Satan teaches that God is a being without body, parts or passions.

The Book of Mormon teaches in 1 Nephi 14: 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

 

[BJ64]

Duplicate post

Edited September 13, 2018 by BJ64
Duplicate

[JohnsonJones]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be
in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

Thanks,
Jim

I do not see how this is relevant to the topic. 

However, let's quote some sections of that sermon you have taken your idea from and see something Joseph Smith teaches something similar to what you stated.

Quote

The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible.

Now you have been specific in your statement, while as with the sermon, typically Joseph Smith simply referred to God or the Father. 

In the sense of the trinity, this is exactly what they believe as well to a degree.  For a Trinitarian, do you not believe Jesus is God.  Do you not believe he and the Father are one and yet separate, being of the same substance?  If Jesus therefore IS God and was also born of a woman and thus also a man, did he not start as a babe and then grow to be a child.  Then, continued to grow to become an adult and then, though he chose to do so, die as all men do.

Yet, and this is where he shows that he is God as opposed to simply just another man, he lay in the tomb for three days and on the third arose and was resurrected.  Because he broke the bounds of death and sin we all can be raised as he was.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ did this? 

If you do not believe that Jesus did this, then you are an odd Christian.  We, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may not be Trinitarians (and thus do not believe he and the father are one and yet separate being of the same substance), but with that exception, we DO believe what is stated above. 

We believe Jesus is the Great I AM as he stated in the bible.  That he created this world and this Earth.  That he condescended from heaven to be born of Mary and be our Messiah.  That he, just as we are men, grew from a baby to an adult, and as we will do, he lay down his life in death.  Because of him, because of his power as the Father of ALL creation and subjecting the flesh to the will of the Father but also being of the flesh he is also the Son (as we believe as given to us from Abinadi) in regards to this mortal creation, he rose up again on the third day, taking on immortality and took up his glorified form.  As he did so, he also made it so that we too can be raised up and glorified.

I would advocate that any who wish to understand our Church understand this about the members of our Church.  This is a central belief of ours, and as such needs to be understood about all Mormons of their core belief.  A great prophet from another great resource (Book of Mormon) of our belief, was Abinadi (as I mentioned above).  His teaching is found in the Book of Mormon, which we believe to be the given to us from God and is scripture.  In it, he teaches a great sermon.  Part of this sermon encapsulates this belief far better than I could.  As my writing may be inaccurate, his sermon is more concise and accurate than anything I could do.  At this time he was confronting a great many enemies who were putting him in an unjust trial.  Even though he was being put on this pseudo trial, he bravely told them the commandments of God and the very core beliefs of our faith.

This is found in Mosiah 15: 1-11

Quote

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men—

9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

We believe that, as you see above, that Jesus Christ is real and he is our Savior.  That if we hearken to his words and the words of the prophets, believe that the Lord will redeem us and follow him, that we will go to the Kingdom of God and dwell with him there.  We believe in the words of Abinadi (and all the other prophets that speak of the Lord, and also the Testimonies of his apostles and disciples as they wrote of his words and teachings in the Scriptures).

This is what I have faith in and what we know to be true.

Edited September 13, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[mordorbund]

16 hours ago, theplains said:

If Heavenly Father is not a man who progressed into becoming a God like Joseph Smith taught (and continues to be
in the LDS Church), does it mean this false teaching originated with Satan?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, you're really hyper-focused on this. Many people have tried to show you that it's not as unorthodox for a Christian as would seem at first blush. You bring it into the most tangential of subjects. Why do you want to continue discussing this one teaching of Joseph Smith? Will you also be his disciple?

[theplains]

On 9/13/2018 at 10:39 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Yet, and this is where he shows that he is God as opposed to simply just another man, he lay in the tomb for three days and on the third arose and was resurrected.  Because he broke the bounds of death and sin we all can be raised as he was.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ did this? 

We believe that, as you see above, that Jesus Christ is real and he is our Savior. 

Yes. I believe this.

Is the real Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel (as Jehovah's Witnesses teach) or the first spirit children of heavenly
parents who became a God when he attained a level of intelligence (as the LDS Church teaches?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 9/13/2018 at 12:36 PM, mordorbund said:

Jim, you're really hyper-focused on this. Many people have tried to show you that it's not as unorthodox for a Christian as would seem at first blush. You bring it into the most tangential of subjects. Why do you want to continue discussing this one teaching of Joseph Smith? Will you also be his disciple?

It's a very important issue. It determines whether one is worshipping the true God or a false man-made god.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, theplains said:

It's a very important issue. It determines whether one is worshipping the true God or a false man-made god.

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, did you believe salvation is dependent on passing a theology test?  Or is it by faith alone?

Every time you post here or on MDDB, you more and more thoroughly convince me that you believe salvation is dependent on a man and their ability to pass a theology test.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Yes. I believe this.

Is the real Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel (as Jehovah's Witnesses teach) or the first spirit children of heavenly
parents who became a God when he attained a level of intelligence (as the LDS Church teaches?

Thanks,
Jim

No, we do not believe Michael is the Lord, Savior, or Jesus.  He is the Arch angel, not God.  I don't think we teach he was the first of the spirit children either.  I haven't heard that belief at least.

[zil]

5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

No, we do not believe Michael is the Lord, Savior, or Jesus.  He is the Arch angel, not God.  I don't think we teach he was the first of the spirit children either.  I haven't heard that belief at least.

Pretty sure he's asking if Jesus Christ was the first of God's spirit children (true), but then tossing in awkward wording about intelligence.  His statement sets up strawmen, or a false dichotomy and instructs us to pick one.  I decline to play such games.  If he wants to know what we believe about Jesus Christ, or Michael, or our pre-mortal existence, or anything else, he should ask us and let us choose the words.

[Blackmarch]

this is probably one of the best demonstrations of why we need and need to bear a testimony:
 

 

[theplains]

On 9/17/2018 at 7:48 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Jim, did you believe salvation is dependent on passing a theology test?  Or is it by faith alone?

Every time you post here or on MDDB, you more and more thoroughly convince me that you believe salvation is dependent on a man and their ability to pass a theology test.

Ephesians 2:8-9.  We are saved by grace through faith, not after all we can do as the Book of Mormon teaches (2
Nephi 25:23). Also, Christ's grace is sufficient for us by faith, not after we first deny ourselves of all ungodliness
(Moroni 10:32).

Jim

[theplains]

On 9/17/2018 at 9:54 PM, JohnsonJones said:

No, we do not believe Michael is the Lord, Savior, or Jesus.  He is the Arch angel, not God.  I don't think we teach he was the first of the spirit children either.  I haven't heard that belief at least.

See Gospel Principles. Jesus is said to be the first spirit child of heavenly parents. The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines
of the Gospel Student Manual says he became a God (ranked as a God) when he reached a pinnacle of intelligence.
Joseph Smith also taught Heavenly Father (and supposedly Heavenly Mother) became a God.  Not much is said about
the Holy Spirit on whether he was also a spirit child of heavenly parents or if he was always a God when heavenly
father was only a man on his road to progression.

Jim

[Jane_Doe]

47 minutes ago, theplains said:

Ephesians 2:8-9.  We are saved by grace through faith

Except you seemingly don't believe that.

You apparently believe that we are saved by passing a theology test.  Where may I read about that in the Bible?

[Vort]

52 minutes ago, theplains said:

Ephesians 2:8-9.  We are saved by grace through faith, not after all we can do as the Book of Mormon teaches (2 Nephi 25:23).

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

52 minutes ago, theplains said:

Also, Christ's grace is sufficient for us by faith, not after we first deny ourselves of all ungodliness (Moroni 10:32).

What exactly do you suppose it means to exercise faith if not to deny oneself of ungodliness, Jim? Hold your hands up and shout, "Lord, I be-LIEEEEEVE!!!"? You might want to review Matthew 7:21 before preaching this nonsensical pseudo-Christian shahada.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

We are saved by grace through faith, not after all we can do as the Book of Mormon teaches

Faith IS all we can do. It's the same principle.

Edit: I see @Vort beat me to the thought.

Edited September 21, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

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