Guest

Missionaries Going the Way of...

Recommended Posts

My oldest daughter and son completed honourable missions and my second son is currently serving. My second daughter has no plans and no desire to serve a mission. I grieve for her because of the amazing amount of blessings and growth she will miss out on if she does not serve a mission. I believe that there are blessings and growth that come from a mission that cannot be received in any other way, and I am greatly saddened by the thought that she is turning down the opportunity to receive these blessings. My desire for her to serve a mission is not driven by the fact that it is a commandment/teaching/objective/encouragement for young people to serve a mission, or by the thought of all the people she might help to bring to Christ, but by what I expect she will miss out on if she doesn't' serve. I acknowledge that my motivation has selfish elements to it inasmuch as it is driven by what I believe is best for her, rather than what the prophets have counselled, or the blessings that she could help to bring to others..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

My oldest daughter and son completed honourable missions and my second son is currently serving. My second daughter has no plans and no desire to serve a mission. I grieve for her because of the amazing amount of blessings and growth she will miss out on if she does not serve a mission. I believe that there are blessings and growth that come from a mission that cannot be received in any other way, and I am greatly saddened by the thought that she is turning down the opportunity to receive these blessings. My desire for her to serve a mission is not driven by the fact that it is a commandment/teaching/objective/encouragement for young people to serve a mission, or by the thought of all the people she might help to bring to Christ, but by what I expect she will miss out on if she doesn't' serve. I acknowledge that my motivation has selfish elements to it inasmuch as it is driven by what I believe is best for her, rather than what the prophets have counselled, or the blessings that she could help to bring to others..

We cannot make the mistake that women are suppose to serve missions... they are not. It is purely their choice, God did not command them to do so.

https://www.lds.org/youth/activities/face-to-face-events/holland?lang=eng

jump to 40:45 on this video and Elder Holland has some profound (at least to me) things to say about this topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of serving a mission as entirely optional. From what I can remember, I got a lot of people asking me if I was going to get baptized at age eight, and I felt pressure to get baptized. I doubt those people did it on purpose. Granted, that was a long time ago, but all they did was ask me. When it was time to prepare to serve a mission, the same thing happened. People asked me, and I felt a hint of pressure to do so. Even though some prep work was done, I ended up chickening out. I don't regret the decision, but I hope people will stop putting pressure on people to serve missions; unfortunately, it can be done without intent on doing so.

As for pornography, there's an instinct to want to look at things that shouldn't be seen or watched. There are women out there that show off skin and sexiness, intentional and unintentional, with and without clothing. Oh, I better not forget the guys. Sorry. I forget the focus is more on women, but it's the same regarding a focus on men, even though it doesn't happen very often, or it's not spoken of as much. This instinct makes it difficult to resist the desire, but it is that desire needs to be fought. The consequences of seeing it is too numerous to mention here, especially when one is married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several years ago, my ward had a RS luncheon where a speaker was a 16-17 year old young man from another ward who gave a very enlightening talk- about his addiction to porn that he faces everyday of his life. He started at 12 years old. Twelve! He had barely graduated from Church Primary when he started down that road!

The young man got help to try and overcome his problem and said as with any other addiction it is a struggle daily. And he admitted that he was raised in a very God and Christ based, proper LDS home with both parents doing everything the right way....... but his interest in those things forbidden .... basically just drew him in. He said all it took was that first look. 

The whole point of his talk (that I got) was that even the best parent(s) in the world can't control the urges of their children, or everything sinful that child comes in contact with in childhood. We, as parents can only do the best we can do and pray that our children can fight their inner demons of temptation when that time comes, and make the right choices of turning away from that first look or taste of sin.

Satan has made it so easy, has incorporated it into basically everything, and has followed the scriptures by enticing people into calling evil good, and good evil. And he has gone/going after the children, to destroy their innocence and keep them from doing what is right.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
4 hours ago, Jeremy A said:

I like the idea of serving a mission as entirely optional. From what I can remember, I got a lot of people asking me if I was going to get baptized at age eight, and I felt pressure to get baptized. I doubt those people did it on purpose. Granted, that was a long time ago, but all they did was ask me. When it was time to prepare to serve a mission, the same thing happened. People asked me, and I felt a hint of pressure to do so. Even though some prep work was done, I ended up chickening out. I don't regret the decision, but I hope people will stop putting pressure on people to serve missions; unfortunately, it can be done without intent on doing so.

Thus far, the commandment to serve a mission has not been rescinded.  My bishop's statement was about more and more young men being unworthy to serve.  In other words, they are disobeying a commandment.  It is NOT optional.  I is still a commandment.

If you feel pressure because people are reminding you of a commandment, then maybe that's what you need.  When the Lord commands something, yes, we ought to feel at least SOME pressure to do it.  Why wouldn't we?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Thus far, the commandment to serve a mission has not been rescinded.  My bishop's statement was about more and more young men being unworthy to serve.  In other words, they are disobeying a commandment.  It is NOT optional.  I is still a commandment.

If you feel pressure because people are reminding you of a commandment, then maybe that's what you need.  When the Lord commands something, yes, we ought to feel at least SOME pressure to do it.  Why wouldn't we?

Serving a mission is not a salvanic ordinance.

If they had the same current interview questions in place 30 years ago, I would have been wholly ineligible from serving. So, how would one be able to keep a commandment from which he was ineligible from?

Edited by Rob Osborn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

 salvanic ordinance.

Sounds like a mix between salvific and satanic.  ;)

 

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Serving a mission is not a salvanic ordinance.

If they had the same current interview questions in place 30 years ago, I would have been wholly ineligible from serving. So, how would one be able to keep a commandment from which he was ineligible from?

The commandment is to be worthy to serve a mission.  If you are ineligible due to circumstances beyond your control, then it is beyond your control.  If you are ineligible because you were unworthy, then that's on your head.

This is the same as going to the Temple.  The commandment is to be worthy to enter the Holy Temple.  If you can't enter the Temple because of circumstances beyond your control (e.g. the closest temple is in such a place that you can't get to it unless you sell your first-born child) then it is beyond your control.  You still have to be worthy of entering it, though.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sounds like a mix between salvific and satanic.  ;)

 

The commandment is to be worthy to serve a mission.  If you are ineligible due to circumstances beyond your control, then it is beyond your control.  If you are ineligible because you were unworthy, then that's on your head.

This is the same as going to the Temple.  The commandment is to be worthy to enter the Holy Temple.  If you can't enter the Temple because of circumstances beyond your control (e.g. the closest temple is in such a place that you can't get to it unless you sell your first-born child) then it is beyond your control.  You still have to be worthy of entering it, though.

 

 

I agree that breaking commandments that prevent one from going is a sin. Not going on a mission however is not a sin. One cannot break a commandment from which they are ineligible from, even through sincere repentance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree that breaking commandments that prevent one from going is a sin. Not going on a mission however is not a sin. One cannot break a commandment from which they are ineligible from, even through sincere repentance.

Uhm... I just said that.  GOING is not the commandment.  To be WORTHY is the commandment... of course, for those worthy and have no impediments to going and they decide not to go that puts into question their worthiness.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Uhm... I just said that.  GOING is not the commandment.  To be WORTHY is the commandment... of course, for those worthy and have no impediments to going and they decide not to go that puts into question their worthiness.

Aye. Didn't quite catch it. Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Uhm... I just said that.  GOING is not the commandment.  To be WORTHY is the commandment... of course, for those worthy and have no impediments to going and they decide not to go that puts into question their worthiness.

I'd modify that.

1) Be worthy.
2) If you're worthy and otherwise eligible and able to go, then you are commanded to go.

Worthy, eligible, and able individuals who fail to go have broken a commandment.  What is different about this commandment is that you can't really "repent" in the same manner as breaking other commandments.  How do you "refrain from repeating that sin"?  So, what is repentance like in this situation?

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd modify that.

1) Be worthy.
2) If you're worthy and otherwise eligible and able to go, then you are commanded to go.

Worthy, eligible, and able individuals who fail to go have broken a commandment.  What is different about this commandment is that you can't really "repent" in the same manner as breaking other commandments.  How do you "refrain from repeating that sin"?  So, what is repentance like in this situation?

I woul strongly argue that serving a mission as a young man is not a commandment. A young man who chooses not to go on a mission or is unable to because of serious transgressions is not breaking a commandment and does not meet conditions for the process of repentance.

Edited by Rob Osborn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2018 at 2:59 PM, Rob Osborn said:

I think the current attitude has created a culture of casualness in the church. A lot of youth speak about going on a mission as some type of duty placed on them by parents that they truly never grasp the wanting to serve. I remember an old employer I worked for who was really pushing his kid to serve and one day I was talking to the young man and I asked him "do you want to serve a mission, or are you doing this to please your dad?" Well, the dad overheard this and gave me a reprimand of sorts stating it was required of him to serve and I shouldn't place doubts in him. To this day I don't speak with any of my youth with a tone of expectation they serve a mission. Neither do I do such with getting married in the temple. I calmly just ask- "So what are your plans? You thinking about a mission, college, work?" No matter their response, I always show an encouraging tone in my voice for what their desire is at that time. Subtly though, in lessons and in bearing testimony I can state the power of serving a mission and how it's a good thing. I am against the brainwashing and casualness in which our culture has now accepted. It's an attitude of belief that rather than placing as utmost importance the individual conversion, it's about the checklist items and making it the standard whereby we believe it has power to exalt ourselves.

I had a bishop a few years ago who bragged it all up Everytime the subject arose about how his kids all served missions, they all got married in the temple and we should pattern our decisions around him. Needless to say, he was the sole leading factor to my son going inactive. I think he meant well, he just lacked the pure love of Christ (conversion in his heart) in his words. But it's that culture, that's what really was the reason. Think about it- when we speak of 16-18 year old young men our expectation is that they serve a full-time mission. That's what first comes to our brainwashed minds. It's the absolute truth. What should our first expectation really be? How about this- how is he doing? Our concern for his individual conversion to Christ. That should be our expectation -have they found Christ yet?

That's not how I'm raising my kids.  And nor are a majority of the Filipino people (and I'd posit the majority of Asians).

I am raised in the principles of Tradition.  My family name means something.  Being a member of this family means something.  It's a privilege that comes with specific expectations.  In my family, you are expected to get straight A's, you are expected to be God-fearing.  Etc. etc. etc.

So that, when my kids go off somewhere and they see their friends do something... say... offer them a smoke... they have confidence to say no because that's not who we are.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2018 at 11:39 PM, askandanswer said:

My oldest daughter and son completed honourable missions and my second son is currently serving. My second daughter has no plans and no desire to serve a mission. I grieve for her because of the amazing amount of blessings and growth she will miss out on if she does not serve a mission. I believe that there are blessings and growth that come from a mission that cannot be received in any other way, and I am greatly saddened by the thought that she is turning down the opportunity to receive these blessings. My desire for her to serve a mission is not driven by the fact that it is a commandment/teaching/objective/encouragement for young people to serve a mission, or by the thought of all the people she might help to bring to Christ, but by what I expect she will miss out on if she doesn't' serve. I acknowledge that my motivation has selfish elements to it inasmuch as it is driven by what I believe is best for her, rather than what the prophets have counselled, or the blessings that she could help to bring to others..

I appreciate your love for your daughter and understand where you're coming from. But that is not how I feel. My daughter has no desire to serve a mission, despite being encouraged to consider doing so by several people. I'm one of those telling her, "If you don't want to serve, then don't serve, and don't worry about it." I would not say such a thing to my sons, but I do to my daughter. I believe she can and will receive the same personal blessings that missionary service would give her if she lives and acts worthily.

On the other hand, if she felt the Spirit were guiding her into missionary service, I would encourage her to follow that prompting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lindy said:

He started at 12 years old. Twelve! He had barely graduated from Church Primary when he started down that road

I mean no offense in saying this, but I think your shock is part of the problem. I first got addicted at age 9. I have a few friends who have similar experiences (so far everyone I know that was at one point viewing pornographer staryed when they were in primary).

did you know the Friend speaks about ponography quite regularily? We shouldn’t be surprised when we learn that children in primary are viewing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

That's not how I'm raising my kids.  And nor are a majority of the Filipino people (and I'd posit the majority of Asians).

I am raised in the principles of Tradition.  My family name means something.  Being a member of this family means something.  It's a privilege that comes with specific expectations.  In my family, you are expected to get straight A's, you are expected to be God-fearing.  Etc. etc. etc.

So that, when my kids go off somewhere and they see their friends do something... say... offer them a smoke... they have confidence to say no because that's not who we are.

To clarify-  are you saying that you are raising your kids without the expectation of their conversion to Christ?  Not sure what you mean here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I am raised in the principles of Tradition.  My family name means something.  Being a member of this family means something.  It's a privilege that comes with specific expectations.  In my family, you are expected to get straight A's, you are expected to be God-fearing.  Etc. etc. etc.

I think that this is something that is being lost on the current generation and perhaps the parents of the current generation.  They have no expectations anymore.    Everyone's being told to simply "follow their dreams/hearts" and forget about tradition and family history. (Blasted Deat Poets Society).  While there is a genuine benefit in following your heart, there is also a danger when it is not tethered into the righteous expectations of the Lord, the expectations of a loving family and doing those things that will bring honor to the family.

What are kids expected to do today? 

Work hard at education to make your life better?  Nope: free education for ALL. 

Work hard to support yourself and your family?  Nope: the government will pay for all.  The wealthy will pay for all!!!

Live a righteous life?  Nope: There is no righteousness except criticizing the faith of religious people.  Apart from that, there is no sin.

Be considerate of others?  Nope: everyone else needs to be considerate of me so I don't get triggered.  But I don't need to be considerate of anyone else.

Be honest in your dealings?  Nope: as long as they are the enemy, you can lie, cheat, steal, vandalize, and even assault/murder someone for simply believing differently than you, and be perfectly content that you're in the right.

Go on a mission?  Oh no, that's not "really" a commandment.  It's just a suggestion.  We don't actually expect anything.  The Lord doesn't actually expect anything of you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

To clarify-  are you saying that you are raising your kids without the expectation of their conversion to Christ?  Not sure what you mean here.

That's the complete opposite of what I'm saying.

We are a Christian family from our very first converted ancestor who was converted from Muslim to Roman Catholicism in the mid 1500's.  Christian living is a 5-century family tradition.

 

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think that this is something that is being lost on the current generation and perhaps the parents of the current generation.  They have no expectations anymore.    Everyone's being told to simply "follow their dreams/hearts" and forget about tradition and family history. (Blasted Deat Poets Society).  While there is a genuine benefit in following your heart, there is also a danger when it is not tethered into the righteous expectations of the Lord, the expectations of a loving family and doing those things that will bring honor to the family.

What are kids expected to do today? 

Work hard at education to make your life better?  Nope: free education for ALL. 

Work hard to support yourself and your family?  Nope: the government will pay for all.  The wealthy will pay for all!!!

Live a righteous life?  Nope: There is no righteousness except criticizing the faith of religious people.  Apart from that, there is no sin.

Be considerate of others?  Nope: everyone else needs to be considerate of me so I don't get triggered.  But I don't need to be considerate of anyone else.

Be honest in your dealings?  Nope: as long as they are the enemy, you can lie, cheat, steal, vandalize, and even assault/murder someone for simply believing differently than you, and be perfectly content that you're in the right.

Go on a mission?  Oh no, that's not "really" a commandment.  It's just a suggestion.  We don't actually expect anything.  The Lord doesn't actually expect anything of you.

The problem with not having deep family traditions is you have to re-invent the wheel every generation as you "find yourself".  In my family, you can look to your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles, great aunts and uncles, etc. etc. to find who you are.  Their combined experiences shows lifetimes of what is good and what is not so good, what diseases or proclivities even personalities, are common in the bloodline and how they dealt with it, etc. etc.  Sure, there are times when you bake a square cake not knowing why it has to be square only to find out upon family history research that great great grandma didn't own a round pan... but that's why family history research is such a fascinating endeavor.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The problem with not having deep family traditions is you have to re-invent the wheel every generation as you "find yourself".  In my family, you can look to your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles, great aunts and uncles, etc. etc. to find who you are.  Their combined experiences shows lifetimes of what is good and what is not so good.

Exactly.  Milton Friedman said of economics that society is not individual.  It is multi-generational.  If we don't know where we've been, we don't know where we can eventually go.  He went on to describe exactly what is happening in my family.

My great grandfather came to America with just a suitcase and what remained of his life's savings around the turn of the century (1900).  He worked for dirt cheap just to make sure his son would be born in America.

My grandfather was still poor.  Farm hand, butcher, handyman, anything he could do.  But he eventually owned his own home.  No paying a landlord for rent all his life.  He achieved that so his son would know the value of hard work and recognize what could be done because he lived in America.

My father ran his own business and became a local celebrity.  While middle class, he still struggled to keep his family afloat. He worked hard and came another step beyond his father.  He was the first to go to college in his family.  And the expectation was that we would all go to college and become leaders.

I've got my own business.  I work hard.  But I don't struggle nearly as much as he did.  And I'm quite successful in my own realm.  I've exceeded what my father did because he taught me how to run my own business, and what it takes to succeed.

My children have expectations that they will exceed my achievements.  Part of that is that I've made connections and have paved a road, so they can more easily walk down that road.  And so on, and so on.

Each generation building on the previous ones. The FAMILY will prosper and grow.  The individual will be able to season the family story with their own individuality.  But we are all part of the family.  And the family must endure, prosper, and grow.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Milton Friedman

What this world needs are more Milton Friedmans and fewer Paul Krugmans.

Fun fact: Milton Friedman was 5'0" tall.

Bonus fun fact: Technically, Paul Krugman is human.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most of my students in college came from families where the expectation was they’d all get straight A’s.

When you grade on a curve 80 percent of those students don’t live up to those expectations.

I can’t tell you how many times I had to listen to students complain about how their grade would dissapoint their parents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now