Does God’s Patience Change Over Time?

[clbent04]

Does the Lord have a higher degree of patience now than he did back in Old Testament times when it comes to holding back his wrath in the sight of sin?  In the Old Testament, certain stories describe how sinful nations angered the Lord enough for Him to destroy them completely.  Were those nations really more wicked than what we see today?  

Here are a couple of stories from the OT where the Lord destroyed people for sinning or taking up arms against the righteous.

1.  Leviticus 10 - Sons of Aaron, Nathan and Abihu, slain by fire for going off course offering the Lord “strange fire.”

2.  Joshua 2, 6 - City of Jericho destroyed except for Rahab and her household.

3.  Joshua 7 - The Lord curses the people of Israel for taking spoil. The family responsible is stoned.

4.  2 Kings 1 - Elijah calls down fire from Heaven to consume soldiers.

5.  2 Kings 19 - An angel slays 185,000 people in defense of the righteous.

Edited November 26, 2018 by clbent04

[mikbone]

I believe so.  

The Lord in the Old Testament was Jehovah

When he condescended to become Jesus Christ he literally became a child and was humbled.  

I can't imagine that his mortal life and especially the events that occurred in Gethsemane and Golgotha didn't have an effect upon his personality.   

[Anddenex]

No. God is perfect, how does a perfect individual "change" their patience over time? The same God (Jehovah) who sent the "flood" is the same God (Jehovah) who will burn the earth by "fire" in the last days before the Millennium.

The verses of scripture provided also are during the Law of Moses which was a strict law, a school teacher, with strict punishments.

The same God (Jehovah) who used angels and other means to protect or to humble a nation is the same God (Jehovah) who will use two prophets in Jerusalem working mighty miracles and death to those who are fighting against the Jews.

Jehovah is "one" with the Father. There is no change in patience with the Father or the Son. They act according to knowledge and principles, their patience is perfect, not evolving.

[clbent04]

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

I can't imagine that his mortal life and especially the events that occurred in Gethsemane and Golgotha didn't have an effect upon his personality.   

That is an interesting thought. I was thinking the one dishing out the wrath was the Father not the Son, although I think some of the Old Testament examples do reference Jehovah. I know they work in unison, so it shouldn’t matter whoever carries out the wrath, right?

But if God the Father is omnipotent, shouldn’t his patience for us sinning remain consistent and unchanged? Wouldn’t he have foreseen how Jesus’ mortal existence was going to pan out, and have considered that from the get go?

Also, something else that eludes me to God changing His patience level is that worlds without number have been created. Were we the first in helping the Lord develop His patience? 

You often hear that God is consistent and unchanging, but I’m not sure those classifications are strictly true. I would think they are. In my mind I reason that it must be mankind that changed, not God. It must be the world really was more wicked back then. But then I consider how corrupt our current world is and I continue going in circles. I mean, honestly, our current world is supposed to be more righteous overall than it was back then?

Edited November 26, 2018 by clbent04

[clbent04]

14 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The verses of scripture provided also are during the Law of Moses which was a strict law, a school teacher, with strict punishments.

In that case, I think it’s this world being subjected to different levels of strictness that is throwing me off.

Were our ancestors really that much more unruly than post-Law of Moses generations? 

In my mind, man is man. We’ve been committing the same sins since the beginning of time.

Edited November 26, 2018 by clbent04

[CV75]

10 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does the Lord have a higher degree of patience now than he did back in Old Testament times when it comes to holding back his wrath in the sight of sin?  In the Old Testament, certain stories describe how sinful nations angered the Lord enough for Him to destroy them completely.  Were those nations really more wicked than what we see today?  

Here are a couple of stories from the OT where the Lord destroyed people for sinning or taking up arms against the righteous.

1.  Leviticus 10 - Sons of Aaron, Nathan and Abihu, slain by fire for going off course offering the Lord “strange fire.”

2.  Joshua 2, 6 - City of Jericho destroyed except for Rahab and her household.

3.  Joshua 7 - The Lord curses the people of Israel for taking spoil. The family responsible is stoned.

4.  2 Kings 1 - Elijah calls down fire from Heaven to consume soldiers.

5.  2 Kings 19 - An angel slays 185,000 people in defense of the righteous.

When we consider "the Lord" as a Council ("Godhead") comprised of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, then "No." I believe this is how God deals with His children in mortality even though we identify Jesus as Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament.

When we consider Jehovah alone as the God of the Old Testament, I would also say "No" because even though He was not perfected until His ascension to the Father, His atonement was prepared from before the foundation of the world, and that is the basis of all His attitudes and attributes.

I think the way the Old Testament is written, and the way it describes the Lord, is more a function of the writers and translators than it is of the full personality of God. There are plenty of passages that describe Him as extremely patient as well.

[Anddenex]

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

In that case, I think it’s this world being subjected to different levels of strictness that is throwing me off.

Were our ancestors really that much more unruly than post-Law of Moses generations? 

In my mind, man is man. We’ve been committing the same sins since the beginning of time.

I think that is an excellent question. These are the things that I can tell from scripture that determine how God acts toward his children:

1) Knowledge -- Witness of the Spirit

2) Knowledge -- Visitations, miracles, etc...

3) Prophets among the people, and if prophets are commanded to warn the people

Before the Law of Moses was given we need to remember that the children of Israel witness/knowledge of God being God:

1) They were shown mighty miracles (i.e. Red Sea, Pillar of Fire, Cloud by Day - Pillar of Fire by Night, etc...)

2) Knowledge was sure and true that the God of Israel was with them (#1)

We now live according to the same light and knowledge of those who lived well before the Law of Moses (Abraham):

1) Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed

2) We know Abraham was spared by an angel when he prayed to God for protection

3) The Flood

This is what I can determine, as our knowledge increases and should we turn away from that knowledge the punishment appears to become more severe, and also the number of people who are righteous in comparison to the number of wicked. We know from Sodom that God will not destroy a nation if there is "one" righteous among them (thus Lot and family leaving).

The children of Israel during the Law of Moses were given knowledge through miracles and others, due to Moses and others, that God was with them. When they turned from God, or when God needed to honor his covenant and he was the only one that could protect - he would protect (even if this means using angels).

Personally, it all the more makes the plan even more just and merciful as reward and punishment is in direct comparison to our knowledge and warnings received by prophets.

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

In that case, I think it’s this world being subjected to different levels of strictness that is throwing me off.

Were our ancestors really that much more unruly than post-Law of Moses generations? 

In my mind, man is man. We’ve been committing the same sins since the beginning of time.

The Law of Moses was a schoolmaster for a particular people who had rejected particular principles, not for all mankind to follow. On the other hand, the Master is for any and all people who will accept Him. That He personally went to Israel and her remnants in His mortality and then after His perfection is merely a function of priesthood order, not preference. 

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

In that case, I think it’s this world being subjected to different levels of strictness that is throwing me off.

Were our ancestors really that much more unruly than post-Law of Moses generations? 

In my mind, man is man. We’ve been committing the same sins since the beginning of time.

I think we are looking at it all wrong.

We often look at God’s love and strictness as the primary factor of changing or staying the same. Instead, I don’t think God is all too worried about how strict/loving/merciful he is being, but rather he is commanding what needs to commanded to preserve his people and religion. After survival is accomplished, then flourishing can take place.

Examples:

1) If the Israelites did not conquer and kill all of Canaan, they would have intermingled with the current inhabitants and the religion would have been lost forever. So it became a decision between (a) physically killing a million people, or (b) allowing generations of people die spiritually. The latter being far more awful.

2) With the laws, they were clearly very quick to forget their god and result to worshiping idols. Therefore they needed strict laws with consequences of death in order to keep the only true religion alive.

I think God is more worried about spiritual survival and our eternal lives than he is worried about making friends

side notes:

1) The God Of the Old Testament is Jehovah, not Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father very rarely shows his face in scripture. In fact he only does so when he is introducing Jehovah/Jesus. Besides that he sits back and let’s Christ run things.

2) To suggest God changes in any degree leads us down a domino effect that ultimately leaves a god not all knowing and more of a higher being who is just doing his best... which is absolutely not true. God is the same yesterday today and forever. To disagree ounwould have to separate yourself from the Church and even christianity all together.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

No. God is perfect, how does a perfect individual "change" their patience over time? The same God (Jehovah) who sent the "flood" is the same God (Jehovah) who will burn the earth by "fire" in the last days before the Millennium.

The verses of scripture provided also are during the Law of Moses which was a strict law, a school teacher, with strict punishments.

The same God (Jehovah) who used angels and other means to protect or to humble a nation is the same God (Jehovah) who will use two prophets in Jerusalem working mighty miracles and death to those who are fighting against the Jews.

Jehovah is "one" with the Father. There is no change in patience with the Father or the Son. They act according to knowledge and principles, their patience is perfect, not evolving.

I love what you wrote.  As a new member (339 days) it raises questions with me, though.  Maybe they're better left for another thread, so ignore if you see fit.  

Our journey of faith and keeping the covenants leads us to exaltation, right?   If we continue the covenant path we continue to progress through all eternity, right?  Through our growth, does not Heavenly Father grow?   Does His growth not change improve Him?

I fully accept the probability that I misunderstand this.  If so, I welcome a correction and maybe some things I may read to better understand this. 

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I love what you wrote.  As a new member (339 days) it raises questions with me, though.  Maybe they're better left for another thread, so ignore if you see fit.  

Our journey of faith and keeping the covenants leads us to exaltation, right?   If we continue the covenant path we continue to progress through all eternity, right?  Through our growth, does not Heavenly Father grow?   Does His growth not change improve Him?

I fully accept the probability that I misunderstand this.  If so, I welcome a correction and maybe some things I may read to better understand this. 

Thank you Grunt for the kind opening words. These are excellent questions, and sadly we don't have much information (revealed truth in scriptures) regarding progression in the eternities; although, there are some thoughts in scriptures that highlight some aspects.

With regards to perfection, and Godly attributes (i.e. charity, patience, virtue) once we truly are one with God (like Christ with the Father) we are perfect in these attributes. We do not progress any further. How we apply those will depend on the circumstance. Think about our own children, we apply charity in multiple ways. Even a swat on the bottom is "love" if done without anger and instruction is given afterwards and a show of love.

As to my understanding of God's progression, how does the Father grow (at this moment), is through "us" -- his offspring. When his offspring do as he commanded and become like Him, his kingdom grows/progresses. This is why I think the concept of "kingdom" is the best way to understand the eternities and growth. When the Lord returns and we all stand before Him and the Father the Son will give back to the Father the glory. Now think of eternal lives. If you have multiple sons and daughters creating their own kingdoms, underneath your Kingdom (as what they do gives you glory) then you progress, but who you are (your character) is never changing -- as you are perfect.

This is my limited understanding according to what I have studied.

[lostinwater]

Just my opinion, but i think that while God has not changed, our images of Him have.  

How much stock we place in the bible especially is something i find more and more odd as i study the genesis of the bible more and more.  A book compiled from the writings of 3 dozen (and a handful more whose names we still do not know) highly superstitious ancient people whose cultures, languages, and contexts we can barely comprehend.  And these books specifically were selected from a canon of a hundred or more ancient texts by people in the dark ages (with much disagreement in the process) who had some pretty specific personal agendas they were trying to accomplish.  And when we superimpose our modern sensibilities and the full force of God's supposed Will on a book with such human origins - i think you have something that looks like a cross between a beautiful postcard and a train wreck.  

i really do think that one of the things (among many) that Jesus came to do was to repair the world's view of God, when it had gone totally off the rails.  

It's important to remember that anyone can preface their unique mix of biases, bigotry, fears, and astonishingly profound wisdom with "thus saith the Lord".  To a degree, we're all still doing that today.

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, Anddenex said:

No. God is perfect, how does a perfect individual "change" their patience over time? The same God (Jehovah) who sent the "flood" is the same God (Jehovah) who will burn the earth by "fire" in the last days before the Millennium.

The verses of scripture provided also are during the Law of Moses which was a strict law, a school teacher, with strict punishments.

The same God (Jehovah) who used angels and other means to protect or to humble a nation is the same God (Jehovah) who will use two prophets in Jerusalem working mighty miracles and death to those who are fighting against the Jews.

Jehovah is "one" with the Father. There is no change in patience with the Father or the Son. They act according to knowledge and principles, their patience is perfect, not evolving.

I really wish that we could have an open dialogue when talking about esoteric doctrinal subjects.  I used to have similar opinions, but over time my understanding has changed.  

We do not understand God.  His knowledge and experience is exponentially, if not infinitely greater than ours.  

Galileo had a similar conversation with the Catholic Church.  The Church believed in a static perfect solar system with the Earth at the center.  Galileo had proof (telescopic verification that Venus has phases) but the Church's "scientific leaders" refused to even look through his devil stick.  

I'm not saying that I am right or that you are wrong.  Likely we are both wrong and have bits and pieces that are correct.  

 

The Godhead is a group of 3 individuals whom have the same goals.  Jehovah and the Holy Ghost are not robots that work under Elohim.  

Elohim is our God.  This is Core doctrine.  He created our spirits.  But his direct interaction with man has been limited.

 

The instances within Holy Writ wherein God the Father directly interacts with man are few and far between. In the following four revelations, God the Father essentially declared testimony of his Son Jesus Christ.

Baptism of Christ (Mathew 3:17) - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:5) - While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Christ’s visit to the Nephites (3 Nephi 11:7) - Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

The First Vision (JS-H 1:17) - It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

After Jesus Christ’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem, the Father’s voice is audible to man while the Father was speaking to Christ.

John 12:28-30  Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Likely all other instances wherein it appears that the Father is speaking in the scriptures, it is probably the Son speaking as if he is the Father. This principle is known as the Divine Investiture of Authority.[1]

 

Elohim gave stewardship to Jehovah to be the physical creator of this World (John 1:3), the Savior, the Great I AM.   Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  And in my opinion, there is ample evidence that Jehovah / Jesus Christ learned and grew and indeed ultimately became perfected during his role as our Savior.  

It is ok to recognize that Jehovah has treated some human different than others?  I believe so.  I have been lucky enough to be born into a LDS family, in the USA, with what many would call privilege.   I could have been born with a genetic defect that lowered my IQ.  I could have been born a single generation prior to Noah's flood.  Or my spirit could have been born during the Millennium.  etc...  Is this fair.  From one person's perspective it might be perceived as unfair.   But if we recognize that during the pre-mortal existence, we all accepted the regulations of mortality, it does become more palatable.  And ultimately we must trust God.  

But there are many instances that we can look within holy writ that show Jehovah / Jesus Christ learning and experiencing new things.

During his trial in Gethsemane when He requested 3 times that Elohim remove the cup.

When He was with the Nephites in 3 Ne 17 and had compassion towards them and even wept as his joy became full when He saw that the multitude were obedient and understood his role.  And especially when He blessed the children.

While on the cross as He as petitioned the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34

And particularly 

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

as opposed to 

3 Nephi 12: 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Notice how He only claimed perfection after the atonement.  I believe that this singular experience had a tremendous effect upon his perception of Love, Justice, and Mercy.  How could it have not???

 

[1] A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Improvement Era, August 1916

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by mikbone

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Notice how He only claimed perfection after the atonement.  I believe that this singular experience had a tremendous effect upon his perception of Love, Justice, and Mercy.  How could it have not???

It might if faith and knowledge were not different forms and applications of the same thing (faith being foreknowledge and knowledge being faith realized). His perfect faith in and knowledge of love, justice, mercy and grace existed spiritually first, and were merely realized in the heavenly council, then again in the war in heaven, then again in the creation, then again in the flesh, and then again in the resurrection, and so on, for ever and ever. He was perfect as a Spirit for that estate and again when He spoke to the Nephites for this and the next estate, especially as far as we are concerned. But I'm sure He has moved far past that by now, and will continue to do so, as more and more of the eternal round rolls out. Once we attain perfect faith and knowledge as He did (spiritually), we can pick up the pace and join or follow Him in later phases of progress or perfection.

ETA: Jesus certainly grew from grace to grace to in the flesh as He remained true to His perfect spiritual roots, on which standing He was already “full of grace and truth.” – see Moses 1:6,32; 7:11; and Alma 13:9 for this description of His pre-mortal character. There are plenty of other references that describe Him as such in the flesh, whether mortal or immortal.

Edited November 26, 2018 by CV75

[mikbone]

Pick up the pace?

Are we in a race?  

i always find it interesting that people think we have been handicapped here on Earth. And that we are learning at a slow pace.

Or that our learning will be greatly accelerated in the next life.

And I’m not necessarily accusing you of thinking these thoughts.

Personally I think we are learning more now while passing through this mortal probation, then we previously have.

You can learn lots from books, but there is no substitute for raw experience.

We have no idea what experiences are in store for us after death.  But I assume that the curve balls will keep coming.

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Does the Lord have a higher degree of patience now than he did back in Old Testament times when it comes to holding back his wrath in the sight of sin?  In the Old Testament, certain stories describe how sinful nations angered the Lord enough for Him to destroy them completely.  Were those nations really more wicked than what we see today?  

Here are a couple of stories from the OT where the Lord destroyed people for sinning or taking up arms against the righteous.

1.  Leviticus 10 - Sons of Aaron, Nathan and Abihu, slain by fire for going off course offering the Lord “strange fire.”

2.  Joshua 2, 6 - City of Jericho destroyed except for Rahab and her household.

3.  Joshua 7 - The Lord curses the people of Israel for taking spoil. The family responsible is stoned.

4.  2 Kings 1 - Elijah calls down fire from Heaven to consume soldiers.

5.  2 Kings 19 - An angel slays 185,000 people in defense of the righteous.

I think there is more of a problem in understanding scripture than in the attributes of G-d.  I have theory that G-d will step in and destroy a society when fully ripe - which I have theorized to mean that such societies are corrupting children.  In other words - it is not so much of what adults do that is corrupt as it is what is done to children to involve them in corruption to the point that developing children are unable overcome become adults capable of overcoming corrupt sexual and violence addictions (which I believe includes drugs) established in their childhood.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think there is more of a problem in understanding scripture than in the attributes of G-d.  I have theory that G-d will step in and destroy a society when fully ripe - which I have theorized to mean that such societies are corrupting children.  In other words - it is not so much of what adults do that is corrupt as it is what is done to children to involve them in corruption to the point that developing children are unable overcome become adults capable of overcoming corrupt sexual and violence addictions (which I believe includes drugs) established in their childhood.

 

The Traveler

That reminds me of an interaction I had with a store attendant about 5 years ago.

We went to a local Macy’s department store trying to find some clothes for one of our little girls.  After browsing for a few minutes, I found an attendant an asked, “where is the little girl prostitute section?”

She acted offended and said, “Excuse me!”

I responded, “you know, where I can find the little girl bikinis, cut off shorts so I can see their butt ckeeks, and the t-shirts with the sexual innuendo.”

She blushed and said, ahh we are in that section now.

I replied, “I noticed”

 

We have since purchased all our Girls clothes online...

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I really wish that we could have an open dialogue when talking about esoteric doctrinal subjects.  I used to have similar opinions, but over time my understanding has changed.  

We do not understand God.  His knowledge and experience is exponentially, if not infinitely greater than ours.  

Galileo had a similar conversation with the Catholic Church.  The Church believed in a static perfect solar system with the Earth at the center.  Galileo had proof (telescopic verification that Venus has phases) but the Church's "scientific leaders" refused to even look through his devil stick.  

I'm not saying that I am right or that you are wrong.  Likely we are both wrong and have bits and pieces that are correct.  

 

The Godhead is a group of 3 individuals whom have the same goals.  Jehovah and the Holy Ghost are not robots that work under Elohim.  

Elohim is our God.  This is Core doctrine.  He created our spirits.  But his direct interaction with man has been limited.

 

The instances within Holy Writ wherein God the Father directly interacts with man are few and far between. In the following four revelations, God the Father essentially declared testimony of his Son Jesus Christ.

Baptism of Christ (Mathew 3:17) - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:5) - While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Christ’s visit to the Nephites (3 Nephi 11:7) - Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

The First Vision (JS-H 1:17) - It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

After Jesus Christ’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem, the Father’s voice is audible to man while the Father was speaking to Christ.

John 12:28-30  Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Likely all other instances wherein it appears that the Father is speaking in the scriptures, it is probably the Son speaking as if he is the Father. This principle is known as the Divine Investiture of Authority.[1]

 

Elohim gave stewardship to Jehovah to be the physical creator of this World (John 1:3), the Savior, the Great I AM.   Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  And in my opinion, there is ample evidence that Jehovah / Jesus Christ learned and grew and indeed ultimately became perfected during his role as our Savior.  

It is ok to recognize that Jehovah has treated some human different than others?  I believe so.  I have been lucky enough to be born into a LDS family, in the USA, with what many would call privilege.   I could have been born with a genetic defect that lowered my IQ.  I could have been born a single generation prior to Noah's flood.  Or my spirit could have been born during the Millennium.  etc...  It this fair.  From one person's perspective it might be perceived as unfair.   But if we recognize that during the pre-mortal existence, we all accepted the regulations of mortality, I does become more palatable.  And ultimately we must trust God.  

But there are many instances that we can look within holy writ that show Jehovah / Jesus Christ learning and experiencing new things.

During his trial in Gethsemane when He requested 3 times that Elohim remove the cup.

When He was with the Nephites in 3 Ne 17 and had compassion towards them and even wept as his joy became full when He saw that the multitude were obedient and understood his role.  And especially when He blessed the children.

While on the cross as He as the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34

And particularly 

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

as opposed to 

3 Nephi 12: 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Notice how He only claimed perfection after the atonement.  I believe that this singular experience had a tremendous effect upon his perception of Love, Justice, and Mercy.  How could it have not???

 

[1] A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Improvement Era, August 1916

Well, fortunately, God isn't bound by "Star Wars" quotes; although, I like this quote also. In this sense though, being "perfect" isn't used in the same sense as this quote was used.

I really wish that we could have an open dialogue when talking about esoteric doctrinal subjects.  I used to have similar opinions, but over time my understanding has changed.  We do not understand God.  His knowledge and experience is exponentially, if not infinitely greater than ours.  

I haven't had any change with regards to core attributes/principles (i.e. Charity, Love, Faith, humility, etc..), but pertaining to other things my understanding does change. This is in part why we can place "full" trust in him. We agree, we are still learning who God is, and the depths of his knowledge.

The Godhead is a group of 3 individuals whom have the same goals.  Jehovah and the Holy Ghost are not robots that work under Elohim.  Elohim is our God.  This is Core doctrine.  He created our spirits.  But his direct interaction with man has been limited.

Yes, God the Father's interactions has been limited, although this doesn't change that God's patience (the Son and the Father) have changed overtime. If they are the same yesterday, today, and forever, and there is no shadow of changing I don't see how their attributes would be less than perfect -- in totality.

Elohim gave stewardship to Jehovah to be the physical creator of this World (John 1:3), the Savior, the Great I AM.   Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  And in my opinion, there is ample evidence that Jehovah / Jesus Christ learned and grew and indeed ultimately became perfected during his role as our Savior.  

This is where our beliefs diverge pertaining to the last statement. When the Lord was born we know he grew grace for grace according to John.  As to Jehovah, Jehovah was perfect, the only one like the Father in all things. I am not sure what evidence you would give to Jehovah/Christ as learning and growing.

My question would be, can an individual place full and perfect trust and faith in an individual that is not perfect? Someone who isn't perfect could easily lead you along the wrong path, or something that is not right.

It is ok to recognize that Jehovah has treated some human different than others?  I believe so.  I have been lucky enough to be born into a LDS family, in the USA, with what many would call privilege.   I could have been born with a genetic defect that lowered my IQ.  I could have been born a single generation prior to Noah's flood.  Or my spirit could have been born during the Millennium.  etc...  It this fair.  From one person's perspective it might be perceived as unfair.   But if we recognize that during the pre-mortal existence, we all accepted the regulations of mortality, I does become more palatable.  And ultimately we must trust God.  

Yes, it is perfectly fine to know and understand that Jehovah (supported by the Father) treats some of us differently. Job is the perfect example of how, even in righteousness, we may experience some very hard times. If we don't accept this, it would be hard to accept the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood as given to Abraham.

There are principles known and unknown by which God acts in accordance with. As such he remain perfectly just and fair, and we can then place 100% trust in someone who is perfect. As to genetic mutations that cause hardship I honestly don't understand why, but we know for sure there were some who would need to be born without such ailments, otherwise they would not be able to accomplish the task given to them. Again, I don't understand, but I can place 100% trust in a perfect God (even Jehovah who is one with the Father) that their way is just and fair because they are perfect.

I would say this is a different topic than "Did God's patience change over time"?

But there are many instances that we can look within holy writ that show Jehovah / Jesus Christ learning and experiencing new things.

In this case we would have to agree to disagree. I don't see any learning happening; however, in mortality we know he grew grace for grace having a similar experience as all of us. This doesn't mean his Spirit previously did not have all knowledge or patience, but that this life would allow him to condescend and thus raise us all up to his perfection, such that we are perfect in Christ.

When He was with the Nephites in 3 Ne 17 and had compassion towards them and even wept as his joy became full when He saw that the multitude were obedient and understood his role.  And especially when He blessed the children.

This isn't learning, this is something he had done throughout scripture. When his children act in faith, by faith, we can receive further light, knowledge, and truth. This wasn't the first time God wept in correlation with his children.

While on the cross as He as the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34

This isn't learning or experiencing, for our Savior was forgiving people long before this. Our Book of Mormon highlights how God is merciful to those who sin in ignorance having not the gospel taught to them, and that they do not know the commandments. Whereas, for the Jews, they had been taught and his discipline was upon them and still is today for this act. This was Jehovah giving witness to what he said all along. Not something new.

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect -- as opposed to -- 3 Nephi 12: 48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect. Notice how He only claimed perfection after the atonement.  I believe that this singular experience had a tremendous effect upon his perception of Love, Justice, and Mercy.  How could it have not???

We have a different understanding of these verses. We would agree to the effect it had upon Christ (so much so that it caused him to bleed from every pore), but we have disagreement that somehow he now was more perfect than he was as Jehovah. It was through his perfection that the atonement was even possible. His love, charity, and others didn't expand as a result of the atonement, it was already there which allowed him and made it possible for him to fulfill the atonement. It was his love now in pure action.

For me this statement clarifies his perfect humility. Jehovah knew his work was coming and how important this work was. He also knew the declaration was now solidified; although, this never changed even before this statement. His perfection is why he could atone, and his perfection in all attributes has never changed for he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Anddenex

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

If you're not with me... then you're my enemy -- Anakin

He that is not with me is against me. -- Jesus (Matt 12:30)

 

Is it coincidental that George Lucas had his bad guy essential quote the Savior so his good guy could refute it?

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

We have a different understanding of these verses. We would agree to the effect it had upon Christ (so much so that it caused him to bleed from every pore), but we have disagreement that somehow he now was more perfect than he was as Jehovah. It was through his perfection that the atonement was even possible. His love, charity, and others didn't expand as a result of the atonement, it was already there which allowed him and made it possible for him to fulfill the atonement. It was his love now in pure action.

Kool.  I don't mind that you have a different opinion.  What does get under my skin is when someone says things like,

Quote

No. God is perfect, how does a perfect individual "change" their patience over time? The same God (Jehovah) who sent the "flood" is the same God (Jehovah) who will burn the earth by "fire" in the last days before the Millennium.

No is what I tell my kids.  

So, do you believe that there ever was a time when Jehovah was not perfect?  Is the Holy Ghost in your opinion perfect now?  In your timeline when does a soul become perfect?  Is Abraham perfect now?  As he has entered into his exaltation...  D&C 132: 29.  Are we perfect if we are raised in the morning of the first resurrection?

I just need to know what I am dealing with.  

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Pick up the pace?

Are we in a race?  

i always find it interesting that people think we have been handicapped here on Earth. And that we are learning at a slow pace.

Or that our learning will be greatly accelerated in the next life.

And I’m not necessarily accusing you of thinking these thoughts.

Personally I think we are learning more now while passing through this mortal probation, then we previously have.

You can learn lots from books, but there is no substitute for raw experience.

We have no idea what experiences are in store for us after death.  But I assume that the curve balls will keep coming.

We are certainly learning more, and in some cases more quickly, here on earth than we were before in the spirit world; that is why we are here (to learn more), and why it is said that accepting the Gospel, overcoming addictions, etc. is no picnic in the next life (to learn quickly).

Jesus was perfect in the subject attributes, both premortally and again as He grew from grace to grace in this life, and again as He ascended. Growing from grace to grace is not only an increase in perfection as we might envision for ourselves, but a faithful new witness of existing perfection in new estates such as Jesus demonstrated throughout His life, ascension and beyond. We do the same thing when we faithfully and successfully repeat a spiritual skill under new circumstances and conditions. Jesus did this all the time. We also learn from moral mistakes and misdeeds, but Jesus experienced this pain through other means.

By grace we pick up the pace and win the race. We lengthen our stride before eventide. We are chastened, hastened and quickened to beat the dickens.

And we do know (i.e. have faith in) some experiences that are in store after death, some more perfectly than others.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, mikbone said:

So, do you believe that there ever was a time when Jehovah was not perfect?  Is the Holy Ghost in your opinion perfect now?  In your timeline when does a soul become perfect?  Is Abraham perfect now?  As he has entered into his exaltation...  D&C 132: 29.  Are we perfect if we are raised in the morning of the first resurrection?

It depends what "perfect" means in different estates and contexts. Jehovah had a perfect understanding of justice and mercy (and obedience, humility, love, grace, etc.), at the very least from the time He volunteered to be our Redeemer. The rest is execution (pun), which He naturally carried out perfectly. He did not need to learn more spiritually to do that, but He did have to prove it, or make it real in this estate, grace for grace (and in Gethsemane and on the cross, punishment for punishment). He did have to demonstrate perfection in time as well as eternity, and physically as well as spiritually. But He was perfectly prepared to do that.

[Anddenex]

53 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Kool.  I don't mind that you have a different opinion.  What does get under my skin is when someone says things like,

No is what I tell my kids.  

The "No." I provided was in response to the OP's question of, "Does the Lord have a higher degree of patience now than he did back in Old Testament times when it comes to holding back his wrath in the sight of sin?"

I assume we have a different perspective then pertaining to the word "No" in the context of the provided question given in this thread. That is OK. I find it better to be direct in a question that I have an answer for, according to the knowledge I have now.

53 minutes ago, mikbone said:

So, do you believe that there ever was a time when Jehovah was not perfect?  Is the Holy Ghost in your opinion perfect now?  In your timeline when does a soul become perfect?  Is Abraham perfect now?  As he has entered into his exaltation...  D&C 132: 29.  Are we perfect if we are raised in the morning of the first resurrection?

I just need to know what I am dealing with. 

As pertaining to Jehovah, I do not believe there was ever a time that Jehovah was not perfect: past, present, or future. The Holy Ghost is perfect also, as he is part of the Godhead. He is one with the Father. As to him, the Holy Ghost, and if there was ever a time he was not I do not know. He is perfect. I believe him being part of the Godhead gives evidence to this.

I think @CV75 provided a good opening when he said, "It depends what 'perfect' means in different estates and contexts." Let me see if I can properly clarify my thoughts pertaining to this.

In this life I am not perfect, nor in my pre-mortal life was I perfect; however, because of Christ/Jehovah (even in my pre-mortal life) I am perfect now, and was perfect then (pre-mortally) due to the Atonement which would be given. I am of the notion I was already applying the Atonement even before I came to this earth. (Moroni 10: 32-34) We are made perfect through Christ which is why we can dwell in the presence of God until we are perfect. In other words, I am not applying the Atonement anymore to overcome sin/wrong/imperfection.

As to Abraham's state I do not know where he is now except that he is exalted, as you have shared the scripture. We know he is "perfect" in Christ, thus he is perfect otherwise he could not dwell in the presence of the Father and he can dwell in the presence of the Father. As to his personal perfection, I think prophets and apostles have made statements that our personal perfection, when we truly have become like the Father and the Son will take eternities, whatever that means and may mean different for each of us as each of us will not all be the same level when we receive all the Father hath. I think this is in part why those who progress further in this life (obtain more knowledge and through knowledge they have become greater followers of righteous).

We are perfect if we are raised in the morning of the first resurrection and who will be exalted, yes they are "perfect" in Christ. It is the only way we can dwell with the Father. As to our progression toward becoming like God that will continue, the Atonement will continue, and one day we will become fully like the Father and Son.

[mikbone]

Quote

 

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here that they would cry “treason” and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator today.

 

Joseph Smith General Conference April 7, 1844

I know that many people hate this talk.  And indeed Joseph Smith felt that many of the Saint's that were assembled at this talk had apostate sentiments and wanted him silenced.

I love it, and wish that I had been able to experience this talk in its original glory.  But from my understanding of Joseph Smith's words we learn and grow as we progress.  Learning all the principles of exaltation will take lots of effort (the fear and trembling part).   Jehovah had the Keys to atonement and resurrection but did not exercise those keys until the end of his life...

[LePeel]

Its not just the old Testament, read 3rd Nephi 9.