My Theory on Who Is the Holy Ghost

[clbent04]

inappropriate. Retracted 

Edited April 26, 2022 by clbent04

[mikbone]

I’ve given it some thought too.

My guess is a spiritual Uncle.

Joseph Smith - “But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again.” (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards  -  “Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

Edited November 30, 2018 by mikbone

[clbent04]

On 11/29/2018 at 9:09 PM, mikbone said:

I’ve given it some thought too.

My guess is a spiritual Uncle.

Joseph Smith - “But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again.” (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

Franklin D. Richards  -  “Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by clbent04

[Vort]

Please, stop this thread right now. Seriously. Please just stop. This is not the type of thing that ought to be speculated on. Please just let it die. Anything you write will just embarrass you, anyone who reads it, and Latter-day Saints in general.

[clbent04]

13 minutes ago, Vort said:

Anything you write will just embarrass you, anyone who reads it, and Latter-day Saints in general.

Why is it embarrassing to speculate who the third member of the Godhead is? I don't find it embarrassing for the Church as I already mentioned this is purely unfounded speculation

Edited November 30, 2018 by clbent04

[Vort]

You know not whereof you speak. You know nothing. Please, do not go this direction. No good can possibly come of such speculation. At absolute best, you will prove yourself ignorant and foolish. That is literally the best possible outcome. More likely, you will erode the foundations of people's testimonies and expose the Saints to shame and ridicule.

[LePeel]

I speculate that the kingdom is God is actually a multi-trillion year old technocratic theocracy. The power of God is actually technology beyond our wildest imagination. (kidding)

EDIT: And I would also add, that this kind of speculation only serves to distract the user from the real work that comes with discipleship. I know, because I used to do it. Its much easier to turn God into an intellectual train-set than it is to get on your knees and try to pray humbly, with the energy of your soul.

Edited November 30, 2018 by LePeel

[clbent04]

2 minutes ago, LePeel said:

I speculate that the kingdom is God is actually a multi-trillion year old technocratic theocracy. The power of God is actually technology beyond our wildest imagination. 

I've actually had a similar theory before, specifically when it comes to God recording all of our thoughts and actions here on earth.  Do you know how much data that would require?  Recording every single thought and action ever in the history of not only this world but worlds without number? Obviously whether it's a blend of technology and things spiritual or purely spiritual, it is beyond our wildest imaginations.

[LePeel]

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I've actually had a similar theory before, specifically when it comes to God recording all of our thoughts and actions here on earth.  Do you know how much data that would require?  Recording every single thought and action ever in the history of not only this world but worlds without number? Obviously whether it's a blend of technology and things spiritual or purely spiritual, it is beyond our wildest imaginations.

There are two things I know. That the power of God is uncreated, and that the true nature of eternity will leave us awestruck.

Edited November 30, 2018 by LePeel

[clbent04]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

You know not whereof you speak. You know nothing. Please, do not go this direction. No good can possibly come of such speculation. At absolute best, you will prove yourself ignorant and foolish. That is literally the best possible outcome. More likely, you will erode the foundations of people's testimonies and expose the Saints to shame and ridicule.

If you can explain to me in a logical way how it will erode the foundations of people's testimonies and expose the Saints to shame and ridicule I won't post anything further on this thread. But it seems like you're overreacting. I prefaced the OP with the disclaimer that this is purely speculation, and in no way am I stating anything I say is even remotely representative to being an official position of the Church

Edited November 30, 2018 by clbent04

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

If you can explain to me in a logical way how it will erode the foundations of people's testimonies and expose the Saints to shame and ridicule I won't post anything further on this thread. But it seems like you're overreacting. I prefaced the OP with the disclaimer that this is purely speculation, and in no way am I stating anything I say is even remotely representative to being an official position of the Church

Please stop this foolish speculation. It is counterproductive. Please just let it die.

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Please stop this foolish speculation. It is counterproductive. Please just let it die.

Alright. If you really feel that way.  I really wanted to get this discussion going to satiate some of my own curiosity, but if it's bothering you that much I'll just leave it where it is and let it die on it's own.

[mikbone]

http://emp.byui.edu/jexj/courses/sermon_in_the_grove.htm

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit. He loves us, and can dwell in us to allow us contact through prayer with the Son and the Father. That is all we know, that is all we need to know

[Rob Osborn]

I have always felt that the LDS doctrine of the Holy Ghost is as mysterious as the Catholics view of the Trinity.

[clbent04]

@Vort before I let this one die, can we just agree that there has to be some kind of eternal order to the complex web of gods and multiple domains, and that a hierarchy must exist among the gods so that the glory is given to your god, and he subsequently passes that glory to his god?

My working theory of who the third member of the Godhead is fits the requirement for fulfilling an eternal order to these things. Even if you don't agree with me that the Holy Spirit is God's god, can you stretch your imagination to fathom the Godhead serves an eternal order and hierarchy to how the glory is given?

Edited November 30, 2018 by clbent04

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Vort before I let this one die, can we just agree that there has to be some kind of eternal order to the complex web of gods and multiple domains, and that a hierarchy must exist among the gods so that the glory is given to your god, and he subsequently passes that glory to his god?

My working theory of who the third member of the Godhead is fits the requirement for fulfilling an eternal order to these things. Even if you don't agree with me that the Holy Spirit is God's god, can you stretch your imagination to fathom the Godhead serves an eternal order and hierarchy to how the glory is given?

There is definitely an eternal order involving “thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths” but I’m not sure how complex that is, especially for those who live within it. After all, they are gods. They are perfectly relatable to us as we become as little children and one with them: “And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.”

[clbent04]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

Franklin D. Richards  -  “Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; standardized)

It's my opinion that Joseph Smith misspoke as a man and was not speaking in the official capacity of the prophet of Church when he said this.  The Godhead is the Godhead, not the "two gods and a lesser spirit." The Godhead is comprised of three gods. 

Would the power, influence, and vast reach of the Holy Spirit be able to be effectuated by anyone other than a god? 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by clbent04

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

It's my opinion that Joseph Smith misspoke as a man and was not speaking in the official capacity of the prophet of Church when he said this.  The Godhead is the Godhead, not the "two gods and a lesser spirit." The Godhead is comprised of three gods. 

Would the power, influence, and vast reach of the Holy Spirit be able to be effectuated by anyone other than a god? 

Spirits can be gods, just not in the same fuller way an exalted being is. "Godhead" means "divine nature," and I know we tend to emphasize the "council" aspect of that, probably related to our appreciation of restored authority and the idea of a "quorum of three presidents" in ancient times (D&C 107:29). But the Holy Ghost can certainly carry out His work just as Jesus did His in pre-mortality.

[LePeel]

31 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Vort before I let this one die, can we just agree that there has to be some kind of eternal order to the complex web of gods and multiple domains, and that a hierarchy must exist among the gods so that the glory is given to your god, and he subsequently passes that glory to his god?

My working theory of who the third member of the Godhead is fits the requirement for fulfilling an eternal order to these things. Even if you don't agree with me that the Holy Spirit is God's god, can you stretch your imagination to fathom the Godhead serves an eternal order and hierarchy to how the glory is given?

I think there's just one eternity and one civilization wherein all celestial persons live and make society with one another. Not complex, not forgien or distant.  

[Rob Osborn]

Of note to this discussion, the Holy Ghost is referred to as "it" in scripture in places. This leads me to believe it's not the actual embodiment of a singular personage.

[mikbone]

27 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

It's my opinion that Joseph Smith misspoke as a man and was not speaking in the official capacity of the prophet of Church when he said this.  The Godhead is the Godhead, not the "two gods and a lesser spirit." The Godhead is comprised of three gods. 

Would the power, influence, and vast reach of the Holy Spirit be able to be effectuated by anyone other than a god? 

 

It is possible that Joseph Smith mispoke...

But knowing his background, position, heavenly experiences, godly and angelic visitations.

I tend to give his words authorative significance. Especially when recorded on at least 2 seperate occasions...

He is generally quite better than the opinions of anonymous internet posters.

Edited November 30, 2018 by mikbone

[Anddenex]

13 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Unfounded, unsupported, and not based on anything but a hunch, I suspect the Holy Spirit is Heavenly Father's God, essentially making Him our Heavenly Grandfather.  The Godhead would then be comprised of the Son, the Father, and the Grandfather.

This would appear at first to be easily shut down with the answer that the Holy Spirit is not a resurrected being of flesh and bones, but rather a personage of spirit that can dwell within us.

I'll throw this disclaimer out there again cause we're moving from the shallow section of the pool to the deep end.  This is highly speculative and I can't defend my position with anything other than my own intuition.  Turn back now unless you want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes.... goes..... goes.... goes.... [echo and fade]

My theory is based on us eternally progressing as gods, not on a spectrum of perfection, but in terms of what we organize and create. As we continue to organize and create, we progress further as our domain expands.  And as our domain expands, our own spiritual presence expands.

But wait, you might say. How would God’s spiritual presence grow any further when He has already ascended to being the Almighty?  The answer: He is the Almighty within his domain and His domain alone. 

God will continue expanding His domain not only by creating more worlds, but as we become gods we will share dominion of our own domains with God, continuing to give Him glory as we receive glory from our own spirit children.

We will always report to God, as He reports to His god, and so forth. This is the eternal order of things.  The Kingdom of God is also the Kingdom of God’s god or the Holy Spirit.  The Godhead is always comprised of 3 so that we may always be connected – the Son, Father, and Grandfather.  The Godhead as we know it will always be the godhead over us even when we become gods. But we will also form a godhead of our own once we become gods.  We will assume the role of the son, then Jesus Christ will assume the role of the father, and Heavenly Father will assume the role of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the reason God has not revealed this to us is not only because it’s not essential to know for our salvation, but also because of the reverence He gives to the Holy Spirit, the Grandfather. He does not want his god’s name profaned, just like He does not want Heavenly Mother’s named profaned.  This is why so little has been said of the Holy Spirit and Heavenly Mother. Father in Heaven has purposely revealed next to nothing about these two for the purpose of protecting what He holds sacred.   

The main doctrine that would falsify this theory/speculation is that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, not of flesh and bone. We know the Father (Heavenly Father) is a glorified body of flesh and bone. If we are to liken this with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father we now know they both have a glorified body of flesh and bone, which IF God the Father does has a Father (as this has not been revealed and we don't know much about Heavenly Father) it would default to -- If God the Father did fulfill His work as commanded and sent by His Father, then His Father already has a glorified body of flesh and bone. Thus he could never be the Holy Spirit, as he would not be a personage of Spirit without flesh and bone.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Anddenex

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

If God the Father did fulfill His work as commanded and sent by His Father, then His Father already has a glorified body of flesh and bone. Thus he could never be the Holy Spirit, as he would not be a personage of Spirit without flesh and bone.

Yes, exactly where the main issue of my theory bumps up against what is commonly understood of the Holy Spirit.  But what is a "personage of spirit"?  Does having that description really mean that you can't have a glorified body?  

If my theory is somehow correct, then God's god, the Holy Spirit, not only has a glorified body of flesh and bone, but He also has spiritual presence in all that He has organized and created, as well as in all the domains of those who organize and create under Him.

Having spiritual presence in the domains of gods under you essentially translates to being a "personage of spirit" in their domains. You may not be physically present, but you are inseparably linked by way of an eternal order.

Edited November 30, 2018 by clbent04

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Of note to this discussion, the Holy Ghost is referred to as "it" in scripture in places. This leads me to believe it's not the actual embodiment of a singular personage.

I’ve noticed this too, but then here is an instance where a person is identified by the neuter pronoun: Mark 13: 11, “…whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.”

And here is an instance where the Holy Ghost could be more personified: 1 Pet. 1: 12, “…them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven…” but which I think refers to the power of the personage and not the personage.

I think the neuter pronoun is used because the Holy Ghost operates by spiritual power and influence as a Witness, and not in a first-hand physical sense as Jesus or Elohim did as the Son and the Father respectively, which calls for personal pronouns reflecting their gender. The Godhead is still referred to as a singular “He,” and the persons as "They form the Godhead."

D&C 130 22-23 allows that the Holy Ghost, as a personage, can descend both as an entity in time and space, virtually by other media, and also by the conveyance of personal power.

I think 2 Nephi 32: 2-5 and Alma 39:5-6 well demonstrate the close connection between the personage and the power. In both, the Holy Ghost is first presented as a divine, personal, intelligent entity, and the personal ministration is described in terms very different than a physical or spiritual element would be (such as, “the liquor talking” or the “peyote showing a vision”).

So it is understandable that the Holy Ghost be referred as “it” by virtue of His role as witnessing, representing and conveying the light and knowledge of God. The light of Christ is "it" and the witness of the Holy Ghost is "it," but because of their roles in our salvation, and perhaps more relevantly, the estates they occupy in fulfilling them, Christ and the Father are personified in our scriptures as someone in the flesh would be while the Holy Ghost is not.

Edited November 30, 2018 by CV75