2 Reasons I Loathe The Last Jedi (Non-political Reasons, Too)

[unixknight]

Star Wars Episode VIII was, in my humble opinion, the most embarrassing, most catastrophic fail to come out of the franchise.  Bar none.

Yes, I've seen Episode 1.

Note that I am leaving politics OUT of this.  

There are two main reason for this, in my view:

Admiral Holdo was pointless and contradictory.

Admiral Holdo was introduced in this film as a brand new character, one we'd never heard of before.  I don't know if she'd been introduced previously in the EU but in terms of the films, she was an unknown entity.  Now, early on we see Holdo at odds with our main characters, namely Poe, Finn and to a lesser extent Rose.  They do not trust her.  They do not trust her at all.  Their mistrust of her is so intense that they stage a mutiny AND launch a separate, unauthorized mission to help  the fleet because they do not trust the leadership of this character. 

Now, in narrative terms, when a bunch of main characters mistrust a brand new character in the story, that's usually a signal to us, the audience, that we shouldn't trust that character either.  Need an example?  Think of the original trilogy when Lando Calrissian was first introduced.  None of the main characters trust him, with only C-3P0 enthusiastic about him.  Han and Leia both say so outright, and they were correct.  By that point in the film Lando had already set them up to be captured by Vader.  Mind you, that was the second film in the original trilogy, which is mirrored in many ways by Last Jedi.  So here's this main character who is being enigmatic, whom we do not know, and whom the main characters, who we DO like and trust, are at odds with.  

And yet, not only does this character turn out to be some kind of hero (subverting expectations, which Rian Johnson seems to think is cinematic genius so much that he peppers the film with it and thinks it's awesome) almost as if to guilt us.  "See?  Told you she was a hero.  Now don't you feel like a jerk after she sacrificed herself?"  Well, no Rian, I don't feel like a jerk, because you set this character up to be hated.  She was smug, dismissive of one of the most popular characters in the film, and gave us precisely zero reasons to like her other than an endorsement from Leia who isn't that important a character in the films anymore.  (Sorry, but she just isn't.  The only significant thing Leia does to advance the plot in this movie is shoot Poe to end the mutiny, and that could have been done by anyone.)  The character gave us no reasons to like her at all and frankly I was sitting there wondering if she'd turn out to be a secret agent for the First Order.  (Not kidding.  That, at least, would have made her character interesting.)

Holdo should not have existed, and she should have been replaced with Ackbar.  THAT would have made sense.  Ackbar is popular with the audience.  If Ackbar had said "Chill, I got this" then he'd have had some measure of trust.  Also, the heroic sacrifice would have been WAY more awesome if it had been done by a character we liked and felt an attachment to.  As it is, Ackbar just gets blown into space pointlessly and we have to put up with Holdo.  You can argue that the audience trusting Ackbar would have undermined support for the actions of the main characters, but don't get me started on how utterly pointless the mission to the casino planet was.  It had no significant impact on the plot whatsoever.

Luke Skywalker was a joke.

I'm old enough to have seen the original Star Wars in the theater.  I'm old enough to have played with my Tatooine garb Luke Skywalker toy with the retractable lightsaber with a yellow blade.  Luke Skywalker was my favroitest character EVAR and I got chills when he came fully into his own.  "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."  I am not kidding when I say I still get a lump in my throat when he says that, even now.  Luke Skywalker is why Episode VI is my favorite of the series, despite the Ewoks.  

I always wanted to see Luke Skywalker as a Jedi.  I wanted to know what happened next!  I wanted to see more movies with Luke Skywalker, having completed his journey, out there being a full-on awesome Jedi warrior training others to be Jedi.  I wanted to see the fruit of his arc.  As the years went by and it became increasingly clear that there would be no Episode VII, I tried to read the Heir to the Empire series but I just couldn't get into it.  Luke Skywalker was a movie character to me, and besides, what's in comic books and novels is always in danger of being wiped out by new movies.  (The Star Trek comic books that followed Star Trek III were WAY better than the fourth movie, but *poof*.  Canon says we get the whales in an environmentalist propaganda piece.)  Luke Skywalker has always been a very special character to me because I watched him grow up as I was growing up.  He had everything!  He had courage, ambition, love, kindness, forgiveness, mercy... He was the perfect story hero.  He was just... awesome, in an epic scale narrative that needed him to be epic.

And he was, Gandalf.  He was.

So Episode VII eventually did come out and the entire story felt like it was building to reuniting us with Luke Skywalker, at LONG LAST.  And it did.  In the end of that movie, Rey offers him the lightsaber and he looks at her, looking all weary, all wise.  What would happen next?  How would Luke react to holding again the lightsaber once wielded by his father?   The saber that was given to him by Obi-Wan?  The lightsaber that he last held in his hand right before it was cut off on Bespin???

Enter Episode VIII.

He throws it away.

Seeing him do that felt like an icy knife in my chest.  Oh no... This is where they're going with Luke?  So Luke Skywalker, hero, main character of the original trilogy, a character that I, a dedicated hard core Trekkie loved more than Captain James T. Frickin' Kirk, has become a bitter old man who drinks green milk fresh from the alien udder in front of Rey just to be crass.  Oh. My. ***.

Now, people have said to me "Unixknight… that isn't fair for you to be so upset.  Luke could certainly have turned into a bitter old man, after the things he's experienced, after what happened with Ben... it makes sense!" And ya know, that isn't wrong... But my problem is that we skipped straight from "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" to "It's time for the Jedi to die" in JUST ONE MOVIE.  (I'm leaving out Episode VII there because Luke was hardly in it.)  You have this massive transformation of a character take place with absolutely no arc, no journey, no story for us to follow.  *BAM* he's just there.  Grumpy and jaded and oh by the way we'll tell you how he got that way later.  For now isn't it hilarious to watch him catch a giant fish?  I mean, Han Solo and Leia hadn't changed so much and Ben was their frickin' son!

I am not ashamed to admit I wept openly when Luke Skywalker became one with the Force at the end of the movie... but it was only partly because, as badly as Rian Johnson wrecked Luke in this film, his last scene with the Force projection was pretty awesome and his death scene was flawless.  The way he sees for a moment, the twin suns of Tatooine...  *sniff*

But it isn't enough to make up for a whole movie of watching my all time favorite Science Fantasy character being utterly out of character and for no good reason other than GOTTA SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS!

Well, Mr.  Johnson...  You did indeed subvert my expectations.  I expected a good movie.  My expectation was well and truly subverted.  Well played.  

[Fether]

My thought process:

If for some reason time switched and there was some other Starwars trilogy other than 4-6 that first came out back in 1977 and then today, Starwars episode 4,5 and 6 all came out EXACTLY as they are now (but only with updates effects), people would be making the same complaints they are making about 7 and 8 today.

Im sorry, but I think nostalgia and the “But it was huge for it’s time!” arguement is the only thing carrying the argument that the OG trilogy was better.

I loved 7 and 8. Yes there were some awful and pointless scenes and events (I’m looking at you casino scene) and awful characters (Rose). But the original trilogy has it’s mirrors. 

[unixknight]

@Fether I will concede that nostalgia does tend to soften criticisms of the original trilogy, but my complaints here aren't about inconsistencies in story or awkward dialogue or hammy acting (all of which can easily be found in the original trilogy.)  My complaints are about very poor narrative choices that wreck the impact the film COULD have had, if it had been a smarter story.

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, unixknight said:

@Fether I will concede that nostalgia does tend to soften criticisms of the original trilogy, but my complaints here aren't about inconsistencies in story or awkward dialogue or hammy acting (all of which can easily be found in the original trilogy.)  My complaints are about very poor narrative choices that wreck the impact the film COULD have had, if it had been a smarter story.

And my argument is that all those complaints exist in the original trilogy. Yet the new movies are the only ones getting the heat

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

And my argument is that all those complaints exist in the original trilogy. Yet the new movies are the only ones getting the heat

Can you provide examples of that?

[Vort]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Well, Mr.  Johnson...  You did indeed subvert my expectations.  I expected a good movie.  My expectation was well and truly subverted.  Well played.  

I'm not any kind of Star Wars geek. Not even a Trekkie any more. But I enjoy reading carefully written essays about something the author cares about. Very nice.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Most fans that are angry are just upset because the story of episode 8 did not go the way they wanted.

[MarginOfError]

The Last Jedi would have made an almost great movie if it only contained the Rey-Luke and Rey-Ben story arcs.  Everything that happened elsewhere in the movie was a very long set up to "Poe-coming-into-his-own." But then again, Poe's actions led directly to the near total destruction of the Alliance.  He shouldn't have been promoted; he should have been turned over to the First Order ("Here.  You can have him.  We don't want him.")

The Last Jedi would have become an amazing movie if they had spent more time exploring Luke's demons.  I don't particularly object to him having become a bitter old man.  He was a young prodigy with insufficient training who very nearly converted to the dark side.  He didn't have the experience or wisdom one would have needed to rebuild the Jedi Order, and the idea that he might fail and those failures would haunt and plague him doesn't bother me.  But like @unixknight said, it would have been better to focus on that journey than the other nonsense of the movie.

[Fether]

38 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Can you provide examples of that?

Inconsistent Story:

-  Luke’s whole family was murdered and Leia’s whole planet was completely destroyed. Neither of those events seem to have any impact on the story, and both protagonists seemed to forget all about it moments later.

-  The whole Jabas Palace seen in episode six.

- Darth Vader doesn’t seem to remember anything from the prequels (which I guess you can just blame on lack of foresight on George’s part)

Awkward Dialogue/Hammy Acting:

- Luke (my preference)

- In all honesty I can’t think of examples... but Om sure they exist.

 

Narratives/Other

-  in the beginning of episode 4, during the meeting scene, Darth Vader seem to be bossed around by the other guys in the room. They treated him Like he was that guy that no one wanted to see if the party. This seem to clash with the rest of the Star Wars trilogy that pretrade Darth Vader as a mighty sis warriors that everybody figured 

- To this day, I do not understand how firing a middle into a tiny exhaust port Destroyed the entire death star. How did the missile find its way from that tiny hole all the way down to the core of the death star? Maybe I just don’t understand it.

And of course these

 

 

 

 

My aim is not to convince anyone that the original trilogy is bad, but to show people are just high in nostalgia. To be honest, I love all the Star Wars movies. In another post i said that episodes 1 and 4 where my Least favorite, but I still really enjoyed both of them.

[Colirio]

A culturally re-imagined Jedi from unknown, average parents who grew up in the armpit of space on the non-streets who is more powerful with the force than Luke Skywalker, flies the Millenium Falcon better than Han, and is prettier than Princess Leia... 

 

I just cannot imagine where this premise went wrong! 

 

 

As soon as Hux didn't blast Poe into oblivion in the beginning of TLJ, I knew that movie was going to be uninspired. For instance, can you imagine Darth Vader trading banter with with Poe in that scene? 

 

I won't even start on the "stoner comedy" that all the Marvel movies have decided to embrace....

 

[Vort]

As far as Luke vs. Obi-wan goes, there is no comparison.

Luke is the Chosen One or the Son of the Chosen One or something, and is super-duper by his very nature. Through sheer force of Force, he dismantles the evil Empire, discomfits the horrible Sith, redeems dear old dad, and saves the galaxy. Years later, he is an embittered old man who takes delight in offending a young woman who practically worships him and makes it clear that he cares about nothing.

Obi-wan was none of those things, and from what I (a casual, not-especially-emotionally-involved viewer) can tell, not even particularly a top-notch Jedi. Just a guy trying to do his hero thing, and fails much more often than not. He spends almost two decades living alone like a hermit on a desolate planet. In the end, he's murdered by his own failed pupil, and he becomes "more powerful than [his former pupil] can possibly imagine", which basically means he floats around in near non-existence, spouting platitudes. Yet for all his lack of innate talent and poor execution, Obi-wan was faithful to the end.

I don't know,. I would suppose that most Latter-day Saints look to Obi-wan as their hero rather than Luke. If I paid any emotional tax to Star Wars, I'd have a poster of Obi-wan, not Luke, hanging on my wall.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

If for some reason time switched and there was some other Starwars trilogy other than 4-6 that first came out back in 1977 and then today, Starwars episode 4,5 and 6 all came out EXACTLY as they are now (but only with updates effects), people would be making the same complaints they are making about 7 and 8 today.

No. Not patronizing at all. Obviously we're all to childishly nostalgic to actual use our brains.

Monkey snot.

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Inconsistent Story:

Awkward Dialogue/Hammy Acting:

I already conceded that there were inconsistencies, awkward lines and hammy acting.  It was the narrative breakers I was asking for.

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Narratives/Other

-  in the beginning of episode 4, during the meeting scene, Darth Vader seem to be bossed around by the other guys in the room. They treated him Like he was that guy that no one wanted to see if the party. This seem to clash with the rest of the Star Wars trilogy that pretrade Darth Vader as a mighty sis warriors that everybody figured 

I see what you're getting at, but that isn't an example of a narrative failure within the film.  It feels like that would go under "inconsistencies" which we already know exist.  It doesn't weaken the narrative of the film itself.

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Narratives/Other

-To this day, I do not understand how firing a middle into a tiny exhaust port Destroyed the entire death star. How did the missile find its way from that tiny hole all the way down to the core of the death star? Maybe I just don’t understand it.

One of the things Star Wars gets right is that it doesn't attempt to explain the  technology.  We don't know how a hyperdrive works, we don't know how repulsorlift technology is designed, and we don't know much about how a lightsaber can remain a coherent, solid beam of energy at precisely a certain length.  We don't k now because it doesn't matter for the purpose of the story.  One of my gripes about Star Trek is that it tries to hard, too often,  to treat the technology as if its function were important when it isn't for narrative purposes.

I can't see the YouTube videos where I am.  I'll take a look later on. 

Episodes 4-6 were just better movies.  They were crafted better, they used narrative elements more effectively, and they told a more immersive story.  Episode 8 seems to delight in reminding us that it knows what we wanted and delivers the opposite.  Rian Johnson has frequently bragged about his efforts to subvert expectations as if doing so were the height of filmmaking genius.  Don't get  me wrong, subverting expectations CAN be a very effective storytelling device IF it's actually better than what the audience was anticipating and IF it isn't overused.  

It's been said (in this very thread, even) that those who don't like the movie are just upset that they didn't get the story they wanted.  Well, YES.  Episode VII built up a few plot threads that Episode VIII just tossed aside.  Is it wrong for us to want for those things to have gone somewhere?

• Thought Rey's memory of being left behind while her parents(?) flew off in that shuttle was going to mean something?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Thought Rey had an interesting and relevant lineage?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Thought Snoke was going to turn out to be important in some way, shape or form?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Thought Luke was gonna be the hero he was built up to be?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Thought Luke was gonna react in some way to that lightsaber?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Looking for romance between Rey and Finn?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!

Not to mention a few set up from within the film:

• Thought that white stuff was snow?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Didja notice Luke's old X-Wing under the water on Porg Island?  Think he was gonna fly it again?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!
• Did you think you'd get to see Luke in an epic duel?  NOPE!  EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED!

A couple of those could have turned out really well had they been done right and not lost in the crowd, but it is what it is.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Colirio said:

and is prettier than Princess Leia... 

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Carrie Fisher, all day long.  

[Colirio]

Neither. 

 

On any day. 

 

All day long. 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Carrie Fisher, all day long.  

Agreed. And I purposefully choose 'meh' pics of them. In other images they both look much better.

Of course now I feel guilty for objectifying both of them.

[unixknight]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Agreed. And I purposefully choose 'meh' pics of them. In other images they both look much better.

Of course now I feel guilty for objectifying both of them.

You call that a 'meh' picture of Ms. Fisher?  She's gorgeous!

Those pictures aren't objectifying.  Now if you'd chosen Leia in the slave outfit or Rey bending over BB-8 with her buns sticking out, that would be different.  These images are perfectly fine.

[JohnsonJones]

I posted this in the other Star Wars (I suppose it is Star Trek instead) thread, but it would do just as well here.

One of my kids absolutely ADORES Star Wars.

He liked The Last Jedi.

Of course, he also liked My Little Pony and later on Pokémon stuff...so his taste may be wanting somewhat...

As per him, there were some things that diminished his liking of it.  He thinks Luke acts differently.

When he dragged me to go see it, it was a decent movie.  There was no really bad items that would be completely offensive, which is something that is all too prevalent in movies today.  That at least makes it worthwhile.  A tad too violent at spots though.  There was no need to show them cutting someone in half and other rather graphic things.  Looking back at it, there are some things that just really didn't make sense.

For example, they are in space, which has more than 2 dimensions.  Why didn't the enemy guys just go to lightspeed and jump around the Rebels and do a pincer movement?  It also appeared like they were going to have some large and major battle, but all that happened were a few ground vehicles travelled towards the bad guys and then peeled off without ever firing a shot, and a bunch of spaceships went through some caves.  There wasn't really any battle after the build up!

Finally, Luke said he was going to teach Rey three lessons, but I only ever counted two.  Where was the third lesson.  And why did he vanish like he did at the end?

I also though the humor is going to be incredibly DATED.  Will you hold?  Holding?  Really?  That's going to get old really quick...actually it was dated by the time TLJ came out to some degree.

And throwing away the lightsaber at the beginning, people laughed, I thought some of that stuff was actually quite cringeworthy.

HOWEVER, as it was relatively clean, I'm not going to say it was a BAD movie.  It's a LOT better than many other movies out there today that are rated PG or higher.

I have seen the original Star Wars (and it was also violent, but otherwise pretty clean which is a good thing).  I must admit I liked the Original Star Wars better than this Last Jedi one. 

My kid I mentioned at the start of this post...he LOVED it.  The Return of the Jedi had some inappropriate stuff, but he always wanted to watch the Star Wars Trilogy and such when he was growing up.  His grandparents would rent the entire trilogy for him to watch when we visited them on New Years.  At least it kept him and the others in the TV room while the adults talked and such.

[NeuroTypical]

I like how Ghost Yoda shows up and Luke is all "Imma show you Imma go burn down the magic book tree you can't stop me!" and then he wimps out so Ghost Yoda force-clouds some lightning down and blows up the magic book tree himself like KAZAAAAP! and then beats the crap out of Luke with his ghost gimer stick. 

That was cool.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

Star Wars Episode VIII was, in my humble opinion, the most embarrassing, most catastrophic fail to come out of the franchise.  Bar none.

...

Well, Mr.  Johnson...  You did indeed subvert my expectations.  I expected a good movie.  My expectation was well and truly subverted.  Well played.  

I just didn't like it.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

My thought process:

If for some reason time switched and there was some other Starwars trilogy other than 4-6 that first came out back in 1977 and then today, Starwars episode 4,5 and 6 all came out EXACTLY as they are now (but only with updates effects), people would be making the same complaints they are making about 7 and 8 today.

Im sorry, but I think nostalgia and the “But it was huge for it’s time!” arguement is the only thing carrying the argument that the OG trilogy was better.

I loved 7 and 8. Yes there were some awful and pointless scenes and events (I’m looking at you casino scene) and awful characters (Rose). But the original trilogy has it’s mirrors. 

ZERO COMPREHENSION of the issues with Episode 7-8.

Episode I - Anakin went from slave to trainee.

Episode II - Anakin the Jedi apprentice.

Episode III - Anakin the Jedi... in the end turns to the darkside.

Episode IV - Luke went from farmer to trainee.

Episode V - Luke the Jedi apprentice.

Episode VI - Luke the Jedi... in the end redeems Anakin from the darkside.

What would you expect out of Episode VII-VIII when you bring back these beloved characters?  LUKE THE JEDI MASTER or LEIA going through the Jedi development arc or even Rey going through the Jedi arc.  And we got an old, fearful, depressed Luke drinking milk out of space cows... then he dies.  And you got a Leia-poppins that magically mastered Jedi powers known only to highly trained Jedi Masters with zero hint of training.  SO YOU BRING BACK THESE CHARACTERS JUST SO YOU CAN MAKE THEM SUCK!

And you got Rey that went from scavenger to defeating a highly trained Jedi from the Skywalker lineage with zero training.  Didn't become an apprentice because Luke refused to train her.  She just... all of sudden becomes Jedi that have such great powers not only to be able to locate the fleeing rebels but be able to move heavy objects... no training.

STUPID.

 

[unixknight]

29 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And you got Rey that went from scavenger to defeating a highly trained Jedi from the Skywalker lineage with zero training.  Didn't become an apprentice because Luke refused to train her.  She just... all of sudden becomes Jedi that have such great powers not only to be able to locate the fleeing rebels but be able to move heavy objects... no training.

STUPID.

 

Not only that, but she keeps up just fine with Kylo when they battle the elite guards in Snoke's throne room.  (Which, if I'm being honest, was a fun scene to watch.)  I've heard a million excuses for why Rey beats Kylo in Episode 7.  He was wounded, he was tired, he was shaken up from  having killed dad...  Ok, whatever.  But for Rey to then be able to go toe to toe with these elites... Nope.  Not buying it.  Mary Rey Sue.

(Heading off one of the counter arguments)  No, Luke was not suddenly awesome with a lightsaber in Episode 5.  He was meh with it, from the training he'd gotten from Obi-Wan and maybe a little from Yoda, but keep in mind that Vader was only toying with him, trying to get him to turn to the Dark Side.  If Vader had unleashed his full power, Luke wouldn't have lasted 10 seconds.

Edited December 4, 2018 by unixknight

[anatess2]

16 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Not only that, but she keeps up just fine with Kylo when they battle the elite guards in Snoke's throne room.  (Which, if I'm being honest, was a fun scene to watch.)  I've heard a million excuses for why Rey beats Kylo in Episode 7.  He was wounded, he was tired, he was shaken up from  having killed dad...  Ok, whatever.  But for Rey to then be able to go toe to toe with these elites... Nope.  Not buying it.  Mary Rey Sue.

(Heading off one of the counter arguments)  No, Luke was not suddenly awesome with a lightsaber in Episode 5.  He was meh with it, from the training he'd gotten from Obi-Wan and maybe a little from Yoda, but keep in mind that Vader was only toying with him, trying to get him to turn to the Dark Side.  If Vader had unleashed his full power, Luke wouldn't have lasted 10 seconds.

People griping about Episode V are grasping at straws.  It is pretty obvious on that fight scene how Luke was bumbling, completely unprepared for the fight having his hand chopped off there in the end even as Vader was simply trying to beat him to the point that Luke will join Vader.  He left the scene defeated.  When did Mary Rey Sue leave a fight defeated?

[Fether]

@unixknight @anatess2

I have the same feelings that you do. But why don’t the holes and rediculiusness of the original trilogy get you as fired up?

The begginung of return if the Jedi is  nonsensical. But it is still dang cool and episode 6 is still one of my most favorite episodes.

All of Luke’s family was murdered and yet I can’t think of a single tear shed.

Or when Leia’s entire home world is destroyed? No emotional reaction at all.

Why are all these things completely exempt from harsh criticism?