Need help re. Plan of salvation


Aaddaamm

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I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

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6 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

Excellent question.  I am not sure there is a complete answer in scripture or anywhere else in mortality - which I believe is part of the experience.  As near as I have been able to determine we have two critical aspects of our mortal probation - that I believe begins with the fall and ends with the resurrection.  The first is to receive and experience a mortal physical body (which includes physical death).  The second is quite subtle.  It has to do with what we are told about the fall - that we learn from experience the good from the evil.  The evil is both the spiritual and physical pain and suffering that brings both spiritual and physical death.  To understand evil one must suffer spiritual and physical death - and all that are born experience both.  To learn of good - we must experience the forgiveness of sin that comes through the Atonement of Christ.  Then at the final judgement we can account before G-d our desire and obligations towards good and evil.

 

The Traveler

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8 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

I would second @anatess2, that chapter dives deep and plainly explains the purpose of this life, the fall, and the importance of agency. There you will find the answer to you question. 

Additionally, I would add a summarization of Doctrine and Covenants 88:22-31 in my own words.

The Celestial Kingsin is a society of people who want to live all the laws that God has and fully accept all that he has to offer, both duties and blessings.

The Terrestrial Kingdom is a society of great people who, though did not believe in god (or if they did, did not want the responsibilities of the Celestial Kingdom), still want to be good and live around good people.

The Telestial Kingdom is a society of people that want to exist but not be governed by the laws of god.

In pre earth life and in our mortal life, we are showing God but our decisions which kingdom we want to be a part of, and in the process qualifying for the one we want.

 

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6 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

The first paragraph to your post already provides answers to the questions you have proposed. With that said, let's review what we know about the importance of our mortal experience:

1) To gain an earthly body, whether we know of or don't know of Christ in this life we still need to obtain a body.
2) To gain experience by knowing good and evil (opposition), whether we know of or don't know of Christ in this life we are still gaining experience.
3) To have saving ordinances performed, whether we know of or don't know of Christ in this life saving ordinances still need to be performed.
4) To know and become further like God.
5) To part the veil in this life. To bring us back into his presence before physical death.

The overall reason for the above-mentioned items is Mose 1:39, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of the sons and daughters of God.

If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression?

What do we know about the afterlife? We know that "all" of the sons and daughters of God will learn of the plan of salvation -- not perhaps. The next question proposed is actually two questions. The first, why did they go through mortal life if they can accept the gospel (Christ) in the next life. The second question offered is asking why mortal life is important to our eternal progression.

The second question is already answered above. Without saving ordinances performed in the flesh, there is no eternal progression -- we are damned. We are not able to obtain a physical body (flesh) without mortal experience.

The first question is also answered from our primary answers of #1 and #2.  They need to obtain a body. They need to experience good and evil, opposition. We have the following stated in scripture (Moses 15:24):

"And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord."

We also know, people who lived beyond the age of accountability are judged according to their lives in the flesh. If they would have accepted the gospel, if preached unto them in the flesh, then we know they can still receive eternal life, exaltation.

If people who died without law, in ignorance, their earthly experience will show their personal tendency to accept good or to accept evil. In correlation to their experience, when the gospel is preached unto them they will still have the same mind and heart that existed in this life. They will then, from their desire for good or for evil accept or reject the gospel, and will receive the glory that correlates with their countenance.

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

God's desire is that all his children would know of his Son. God also knew the reality that due to disobedience of God's children there would be many who would not know of Christ. This shows how well thought out God's plan is, that the Lord will provide a way of salvation even for those who died without law. I echo the words of prophets, "Oh, how great is the plan of our God." The focus of this life is to find the way, the truth, and the life. We have evidence in the Book of Mormon of a Lamanite, who was born without law, who at some point in his personal efforts came to know of Christ and taught his daughter. They kept this hidden until Ammon came. So even people who are born without law are able to pursue a path of truth, of goodness, of right, and by doing so can come to know Christ and his gospel.

As a side answer, I find some questions in life intriguing in that they are questions that result from disobedience, not obedience. If all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were to have followed the commandments, these questions wouldn't even be considered. If all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were to truly fight for Zion and live according to Zion principles and laws, none of these questions would be necessary to ask. I assume I feel like one of the Book of Mormon prophets, if only my days were in the days of the city of Enoch, then I would have witnessed what this life is truly for, what this life is truly about, and I would have experienced righteousness rather than wickedness. But, this is my day, and this is the type of questions we ask due to the disobedience and wickedness of God's children who prefer the flesh over the spirit.

 

 

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The shortest way for me to explain it is that we are here to learn. Whether we live in other parts of the world and never hear about the gospel, live now or thousands of years ago, wade through few or many trials, live long lives, or live short lives, we need to trust that God wants the best for us, and to learn the lessons he desires us to learn from our experience here on earth. 

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9 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here. 

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

Since you mentioned it, I do not think it safe to assume that emotional and cognitive pain is not of a physical origin, or exponentially enhanced by physicality. This might be enough to address your main question.

“In this life” includes the post-mortal spirit world. There is a principle, “speaking of things to come as though they had already come,” (Mosiah 16:6) that can be applied to mortal experience from the post-mortal one, i.e. “experiencing things that were as though Christ had already come into your life.” This comes by grace.

Thus, no physicality is wasted, and no spiritual experience, no matter how fundamental (I’m think here of the light of Christ which is given to all men, D&C 84:46).

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Thankyou all,

So what I got from this is, we are here for a mortal body and we are here to choose good or evil, regardless of our knowledge of God.

But didnt we choose that already? Why is it necessary for a second test ? I chose Christ over Satan in the beginning. I knew good from evil then didnt I? I certainly knew happiness from sadness, as the scriptures attest: D&C, 76:26 / Job 38:7

Perhaps it's one thing to make a choice while you have the influence of God and his presence with you daily, and a sure knowledge of it. And perhaps it's another to make a choice under a probationary spiritual death (Absence of God), without a knowledge of His existence. 

So to be more specific, the answer to the question, why are we here... is, we are here to gain a physical body, and to determine for ourselves what we would like, good, or evil, and this is to be tested for a short period under the conditions of spiritual death. A kind of, next level test to our pre mortal test.

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12 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

Perhaps it's one thing to make a choice while you have the influence of God and his presence with you daily, and a sure knowledge of it. And perhaps it's another to make a choice under a probationary spiritual death (Absence of God), without a knowledge of His existence. 

So to be more specific, the answer to the question, why are we here... is, we are here to gain a physical body, and to determine for ourselves what we would like, good, or evil, and this is to be tested for a short period under the conditions of spiritual death. A kind of, next level test to our pre mortal test.

Exactly, I can choose that I want to quit smoking... but that means nothing unless I do it.

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48 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

Thankyou all,

But didnt we choose that already? Why is it necessary for a second test ? I chose Christ over Satan in the beginning. I knew good from evil then didnt I? I certainly knew happiness from sadness, as the scriptures attest: D&C, 76:26 / Job 38:7

Perhaps it's one thing to make a choice while you have the influence of God and his presence with you daily, and a sure knowledge of it. And perhaps it's another to make a choice under a probationary spiritual death (Absence of God), without a knowledge of His existence. 

So to be more specific, the answer to the question, why are we here... is, we are here to gain a physical body, and to determine for ourselves what we would like, good, or evil, and this is to be tested for a short period under the conditions of spiritual death. A kind of, next level test to our pre mortal test.

We kept our first estate, yes, that is correct, and because we kept our first estate we have the opportunity we have now in our second estate. We knew good and evil to a point, as far as "spirit" bodies are able to experience "good" and "evil." We can see from our earth life how many of us are still learning good and evil, and how many of us are actually choosing evil when we are no longer in the presence of God the Father.

This is really a liberal application I provide, our pre-mortal experience would be like going to school. Our mortal experience is actually obtaining a job and then applying what we know. We don't know until we have actually applied. We have knowledge, and this life allows us to see what we really know and what we truly desire.

One aspect of this life is Doctrine and Covenants, "And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." So, to some degree the knowledge we obtain now will have some advantage in the next life, as to that advantage, well, not fully sure myself. The obvious answer, is anyone who is more prepared on a test will do better on a test. Anyone who knows the purpose in this life, studies that purpose, and lives that purpose will be more prepared to meet God at the judgement bar. That can definitely be advantageous.

Yep, the last statement is correct. We are determining right now where we want to be for an eternity.

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Even if a person has no knowledge of God or Jesus Christ, everyone has the Light of Christ.  The Light of Christ is a power that fills the Universe and gives man his consciousness and understanding.  Those that have no knowledge of God will be judged based upon their understand, acceptance, rejection, observance in following the Light of Christ. 

Atheists don't believe in God.  But they do believe in a conscience (the Light of Christ)

 

The Purpose of Life – Mortal Probation – Why we lost our premortal memories

1)  We are here to learn via experience that God is benevolent and wise and as such, He deserves our faith. (loyalty, trust, and obedience)

2) Our thoughts, words, and actions (or inaction) all have consequences. (Mosiah 4:30)

3) Evil and chaos are relentless forces that require constant opposition. (2 Nephi 2:11)

4) We should recognize that following God’s plan is the only way to obtain true happiness and Joy. Therefore, we should not need a of fear of punishment nor a promise of reward to motivate us to do good. Choosing the right in and of itself is a self-rewarding activity.  

5) Mortality is designed to prepare us for future challenges by strengthening us, and forever conditioning us against sin and temptation. (D&C 122:7-8)

6) We are here to work, to prepare to meet God. (Alma 34:32)

7) We are here to receive a body, and begin our education about matter. How the physical elements can be manipulated and controlled.

8) God wants us to understand what it is like to have a spouse, children, and family.  To experience love, and all the benefits and challenges associated with marriage and parenting. (The Family: A Proclamation to the World)

9) We are here to grow in knowledge, and develop talents and gifts. (D&C 130:19)

10) We are here to partake of ordinances and witness the Atonement of Jesus Christ. (D&C 20:77-79)

11) This probationary state was designed to test which spirits are worthy to continue progressing toward greater power and authority. (Abraham 3:25)

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9 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

Thankyou all,

So what I got from this is, we are here for a mortal body and we are here to choose good or evil, regardless of our knowledge of God.

But didnt we choose that already? Why is it necessary for a second test ? I chose Christ over Satan in the beginning. I knew good from evil then didnt I? I certainly knew happiness from sadness, as the scriptures attest: D&C, 76:26 / Job 38:7

Perhaps it's one thing to make a choice while you have the influence of God and his presence with you daily, and a sure knowledge of it. And perhaps it's another to make a choice under a probationary spiritual death (Absence of God), without a knowledge of His existence. 

So to be more specific, the answer to the question, why are we here... is, we are here to gain a physical body, and to determine for ourselves what we would like, good, or evil, and this is to be tested for a short period under the conditions of spiritual death. A kind of, next level test to our pre mortal test.

Going even deeper, the purpose of the test isn't just to determine if we will choose good or evil, but it is also a means for increasing in faith and experience so that, ultimately, we may be able to better see /comprehend the Father in ways far advanced than during the pre-existence, where we had the Father always before our eyes. 

In other words, to fully know God necessitated that, for a time, He be hidden from us. Not knowing God or knowing of Him, is the beginning of the process of knowing Him better.

It requires, as symbolized by Abraham, that we leave our home and parents and journey to a strange land.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On 2/8/2019 at 12:22 PM, Fether said:

In pre earth life and in our mortal life, we are showing God but our decisions which kingdom we want to be a part of, and in the process qualifying for the one we want.

 

Just wondering - why do you think G-d (who is very smart and probably already knows everything from before the "beginning") needs to be shown or convinced of anything that is true?

 

The Traveler

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On 2/8/2019 at 3:29 PM, Anddenex said:

 We are determining right now where we want to be for an eternity.

You do not think that we had a reasonable idea (perhaps even better than we do now) while we were still in the pre-existence?

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Just wondering - why do you think G-d (who is very smart and probably already knows everything from before the "beginning") needs to be shown or convinced of anything that is true?

 

The Traveler

I’m not sure what you mean by your use of the word “true” and the end, but after rereading my comment, Ya I think my wording was off. It’s not enough to choose good, but we have to BE good. This life is where we choose good and become good. Adam and Eve were perfectly innocent which meant they were neither good nor evil, nor were they perfect. Mortality was the vehicle that took them from innocence to being good and eventually to exaltation.

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

You do not think that we had a reasonable idea (perhaps even better than we do now) while we were still in the pre-existence?

 

The Traveler

I think we all wanted to be like God in the sense that we all live his lifestyle. So nothing  short of exaltation. I could be wrong. Perhaps there were lazy intelligences that would prefer not to do the work, and were happy to be telestialised, or terrestrualised. This would agree with that fact that we were not all as good as eachother. Christ showed Abraham that there were noble and great spirits. This means there were varying degrees of intelligences and attitudes. Lucifer and his followers are another example. Except that they all wanted exaltation the easy way, or should I say the impossible way. Perhaps of we take an existential perspective, this speaks to the fact that they didnt really want it becuase they didnt want to work for it. Which means they didnt understand exactly what it means to be an exalted being.

So I cant say for sure. You can find scripture that backs both ideas.

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

You do not think that we had a reasonable idea (perhaps even better than we do now) while we were still in the pre-existence?

 

The Traveler

My response was in light of our mortal experience which we are experiencing right now, and by which we are determining where we want to be. I am unsure how this statement somehow is interpreted as "You do not think..."

Do we remember what we knew in our pre-mortal experience? I sure don't know if I had or did not have any reasonable idea where I would be. I am determining that now by the choices I make according to the knowledge I have.

If you were actually asking, "Do you think that we had...," (which changes the direction of the question) I would say I don't know what knowledge we had in our pre-mortal experience. I have read/heard people say:

1) We knew everything that would happen to us in this life, and where we would eventually be.

2) We knew the general idea of what would happen and where we would be.

I don't fully agree with #1. I more agree with #2. I can find nothing in scripture that supports #1. What I read from scripture, it appears to support #2. This is why we are foreordained not predestined.

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 3:37 AM, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

I agree that it is ONLY the LORD who determines who gets to the Celestial Kingdom and who does not.  If he decides that it is not necessary for one to follow the path that we are taught in this life, that is HIS DOMAIN to DECIDE.  He is the JUDGE and JURY in this. 

However, I think that in regards to our own decisions and our own lives...that does not exactly relinquish our own responsibility or choices in the eternities or this life.

What I am to say is NOT doctrine, but they are my thoughts on the question you ask.

In the pre-existence we had many various levels of zeal and desire to achieve certain things.  We lived there perhaps for longer than we can even imagine (and I can imagine a good long time).  We showed what we were like in many ways.  We each had different levels of what we wanted to strive for.

While there some had a deep desire simply to attain a mortal body and to live in a paradise.  Others thought about maybe becoming more like their Father and pursuing that course of action, but felt that they might not want that responsibility.  They wanted to live under the guidance of their elder brother (the lord) but did not want the responsibility that their Father had.  Others wanted to be just like their Heavenly Parents.  This, their potential, and what they wanted in eternity was taken in measure to help them decide where they would be born in this life and under what circumstances. 

Thus, I believe that we chose what condition and in what situation we were born into in this life.  What the conditions are that we experience coming into this life is directly reflective of the choices that we made in the eternities.  This life, then, is to confirm who and WHAT we are.  Will we truly choose the good, or will we choose the evil.  However, to assume that an eternity of the afterlife is ONLY affected by what we have done in this life would not only shunt how fair it is, but also in some ways be an aberration of justice.  How could one who never had any knowledge of the gospel in this life be given either an eternal reward or cursing?  It is because this life is a mere blink of confirmation of our choices from before.  Comparatively to the eternities where we lived previously, this life is almost an instant.

Our Father and his Son already know us better than we know ourselves.  They know all things and know what we would choose in each situation we were given or were found in.  From all the eternities of knowing us previously, they know how we will be.  However, how we truly are when we are left ignorant and are truly left to our own inner souls is something that each of us still has to discover.  In this life it is when WE can truly see who we REALLY are.  In many ways, not only is this life a time for us to receive a body, but also a time for us to find out who we are at the core of our being and to show that this is who we are to ourselves.  At times we may need help and others have come to help us.  At times there are those who do not need to find this out and already really know themselves, as such, they do not really need to spend time here.  Others may already be good but have come to help their friends through the experience.

If we just view this life as the beginning and end it would seem incredibly unfair and unjust.  When you account that this life is a reflection of the choices we have made throughout an eternity in the pre-existence and because of this knowledge the Lord already can know us, it shows that it is far more fair and just than a temporal view of this life may indicate.

Another example, let's say we had 20 individuals that all had the same ability and capacity to succeed.  They were entering a sailing race in which they had to construct a boat and then sail it.  In order to get the prize they did not have to beat the others, but had to beat a specific time.  It is possible for ALL of them to get that prize if they all beat the time. 

The most zealous of them spend a LOT of time working on that boat.  They research, they craft, they paint, and they sew.  They learn all they can about sailing.  They practice, they learn the rules. 

The next are not quite so ambitious.  They make their boat, but they did not look up all the standards of what the boat would require.  They learn a little about sailing but are not all that interested in the dynamics of it.  They learn most of the rules but feel that this is not the most important thing to study as long as they finish.

The third group don't even look up boat building, but they DO build a boat.  This boat probably looks more like a raft.  Hopefully there won't be stormy seas.  They figure as long as they can get to point A to point B they will be happy just to reach the end.  They are not so much worried about the reward as much as they are about participating and the experience of it. 

The fourth group flat out just gets a piece of wood and call it good.  They hope that they can also make it to the end, but feel there is too much work to actually worry about the race. 

Finally a fifth group flat out just do NOT build a boat at all.  They fail before they even begin. 

This is an example of the pre-existence in a way. Which group do you feel is most prepared.  On the day of the race is it fair?  Some will have really nice boats and a great deal of knowledge to utilize.  Others will have a piece of board.  On the face of that single day it may not seem fair, but when taken into account that each had months to prepare and were given full warning of what to expect it suddenly seems a LOT more fair.

The results is that most of the first group win the reward.  They came with what they prepared with.

The second group may not gain the great reward, but they are given something to show their ample preparation.

The third group may not meet the mark and a few of them that fall into the water or get off course.  Luckily there are a LOT of guides out there and rescue boats that help get them back on their boats and show them the correct route to go on and help them even figure out what they are doing.  They get their participation ribbons and their reward in that way.

The fourth group have a few that flounder right from the start and at least one decides it's not worth it and decides to not race.  The others have various problems and lag behind the others.  Sometimes they have to be rowed to the other shore as their piece of wood will just not make it with them on it.  They eventually make it  to the other shore.  They also get participation ribbons though maybe not quite as significant of a ribbon as those in the third group...except for the one that decided to stop and not race afterall. 

The fifth group never races at all.  They get no reward whatsoever.  Only the one that gave up in the four groups above joins them. 

The race is my parallel to the mortal life here.  Thus, each may have different conditions relative to what we had. 

Now, adding another dimension, perhaps there ARE some exceptions, maybe specifically with someone who was extremely skilled and wanted to race, who everyone knew could win and perhaps come in front of everyone else if they did...but the judges...knowing this have some other mission that they feel this individual could help with. 

Now, let's say that they needed someone to race in group four to help them out.  This person is a guide and given the materials that will let them stay at the pace of the others.  They are told as long as they do what they are needed to do, they will receive the same reward as those who are victorious overall.  They are given a different mission perhaps than what the others are aware of during the race.  They choose to help or to participate as it is necessary for someone to do.  HOWEVER, this is KNOWN before hand and by the judges of the race.  As long as they finish and accomplish what they agreed to do, they will receive a reward with the rest of the winners. 

Thus, just like the race, in my opinion, is this life.  We have an eternity prior to this life on which we had to prepare.  This life is a direct reflection of that.  Is it possible that those who prepared the most could suddenly slack off on the day of the race (this life) and completely not finish.  Absolutely.  However, the preparations they have made prior have made it so that the possibility to succeed is higher than one who may not have.

Hopefully that can explain my position on the matter.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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6 hours ago, Fether said:

I’m not sure what you mean by your use of the word “true” and the end, but after rereading my comment, Ya I think my wording was off. It’s not enough to choose good, but we have to BE good. This life is where we choose good and become good. Adam and Eve were perfectly innocent which meant they were neither good nor evil, nor were they perfect. Mortality was the vehicle that took them from innocence to being good and eventually to exaltation.

I am thinking that the final judgment is more like a temple interview than a court order - where me make our desires known and G-d help us prepare and qualify.  I really do not think someone will be distraught and in tears before G-d only to find him gleefully sending them off to hell or anywhere they would be punished forever.  Rather I am of the mind it will be more like Christmas where we will be given exactly what we wanted and asked for.

 

The Traveler

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6 hours ago, Fether said:

I’m not sure what you mean by your use of the word “true” and the end, but after rereading my comment, Ya I think my wording was off. It’s not enough to choose good, but we have to BE good. This life is where we choose good and become good. Adam and Eve were perfectly innocent which meant they were neither good nor evil, nor were they perfect. Mortality was the vehicle that took them from innocence to being good and eventually to exaltation.

I just have a hard time with the notion that we must "prove" anything to someone as smart as G-d.

 

The Traveler

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4 hours ago, Anddenex said:

My response was in light of our mortal experience which we are experiencing right now, and by which we are determining where we want to be. I am unsure how this statement somehow is interpreted as "You do not think..."

Do we remember what we knew in our pre-mortal experience? I sure don't know if I had or did not have any reasonable idea where I would be. I am determining that now by the choices I make according to the knowledge I have.

If you were actually asking, "Do you think that we had...," (which changes the direction of the question) I would say I don't know what knowledge we had in our pre-mortal experience. I have read/heard people say:

1) We knew everything that would happen to us in this life, and where we would eventually be.

2) We knew the general idea of what would happen and where we would be.

I don't fully agree with #1. I more agree with #2. I can find nothing in scripture that supports #1. What I read from scripture, it appears to support #2. This is why we are foreordained not predestined.

Interesting - I am of the notion that not only did we know - we planned it.  It is the only way I can justify and understand agency.  It would also explain some things about Satan that when he realized how bad some plans were - he argued that we cannot allow such to happen.  But I am open to ideas.  Just that it is hard for me and what I understand of G-d and Christ that we would be sent into this mortal life ignorantly.  Some would say - why would I make such a plan for myself - or why would anyone make a bad plan for themself.  But I would ask - if someone's life plan is so far from what they would choose - why do you believe G-d (what about G-d do you believe that) would force them onto it without them having any say?

 

The Traveler 

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I am thinking that the final judgment is more like a temple interview than a court order - where me make our desires known and G-d help us prepare and qualify.  I really do not think someone will be distraught and in tears before G-d only to find him gleefully sending them off to hell or anywhere they would be punished forever.  Rather I am of the mind it will be more like Christmas where we will be given exactly what we wanted and asked for.

 

The Traveler

How do you interpret the weeping, wailing and nashing teeth then.

Edited by Aaddaamm
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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Interesting - I am of the notion that not only did we know - we planned it.  It is the only way I can justify and understand agency.  It would also explain some things about Satan that when he realized how bad some plans were - he argued that we cannot allow such to happen.  But I am open to ideas.  Just that it is hard for me and what I understand of G-d and Christ that we would be sent into this mortal life ignorantly.  Some would say - why would I make such a plan for myself - or why would anyone make a bad plan for themself.  But I would ask - if someone's life plan is so far from what they would choose - why do you believe G-d (what about G-d do you believe that) would force them onto it without them having any say?

 

The Traveler 

Hmm, I am of the opinion that we didnt know it all from the start. I believe we knew it would be hard, and we knew  about the situations we would be born into. But I do not think that we could comprehend it, having lacked experiencing it. I dont think we could plan our lives, i think we lacked the power to do so. I believe we chose certain aspects of our situation, such as family. I do not think we chose when or where we would be born, i think that's up to God and his wisdom. I for one, would certainly rather an all knowing God choose my plan and pathway over my own feeble premortal intellect.

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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am thinking that the final judgment is more like a temple interview than a court order - where me make our desires known and G-d help us prepare and qualify.  I really do not think someone will be distraught and in tears before G-d only to find him gleefully sending them off to hell or anywhere they would be punished forever.  Rather I am of the mind it will be more like Christmas where we will be given exactly what we wanted and asked for.

 

The Traveler

I completely agree.

 

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

I just have a hard time with the notion that we must "prove" anything to someone as smart as G-d.

 

The Traveler

you are spot on. It’s all about progression. It’s about becoming, not proving. Who I am now is vastly better than who I was 10 years ago, and presumably, better than who I was in the spirit world.

Edited by Fether
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