Please can I ask your advice on finding a church to attend with my girlfriend.

[prisonchaplain]

10 hours ago, Mores said:

Would you really be changing your faith? 

The short answer is YES, of course. If I were to become LDS, would I not be baptized? Yet, I already have been. If the change is not significant, why do it again? Would you not consider me a convert? Again, would we use the word "convert" over a minor change? AND, if the three heavens are true, is not the difference between the Terrestial Kingdom and a chance at the Celestial Kingdom significant in the extreme? The reality is: if transitioning from traditional Christian to LDS spirituality were not significant, your church would not have a strong reason for being. It is because of the major differences that Joseph Smith believed he was restoring the authorized Christian church.

[prisonchaplain]

10 hours ago, estradling75 said:

And we have repeatably explained how you are not asking her to her to "try a new church" (even though that is how you view it).  You are asking her to abandon God. 

Why come here asking for advice if you are not going to listen? 

If you were listening to what we were telling you would know that asking her to "leave her church" is asking her to leave God(as she very likely views it).  If you are unwilling to leave God for her... you have no right to ask her to leave God  for you.

 

 

In fairness, @AbramM is getting mixed signals. Did you read @Mores's post, just a couple back. He almost argued the opposite--that changing to LDS would not be much of a change at all. I agree with you more, but it's not like he's getting one clear answer.

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The short answer is YES, of course. If I were to become LDS, would I not be baptized? Yet, I already have been. If the change is not significant, why do it again? Would you not consider me a convert? Again, would we use the word "convert" over a minor change? AND, if the three heavens are true, is not the difference between the Terrestial Kingdom and a chance at the Celestial Kingdom significant in the extreme? The reality is: if transitioning from traditional Christian to LDS spirituality were not significant, your church would not have a strong reason for being. It is because of the major differences that Joseph Smith believed he was restoring the authorized Christian church.

Prisonchaplain, I think Mores was being satirical-- pointing out the hypocrisy behind the idea that if Abham wants his girlfriend to convert and doesn't realize that it would be a conversion, but he's unwilling to convert for her.

Of course: you, I, and many others have urged that no one convert for any mortal.  

Edited March 25, 2019 by Jane_Doe

[prisonchaplain]

8 hours ago, estradling75 said:

You are not listening...  You do not think you are because you have a limited understanding of the LDS faith (We are Not Protestant).

In this case we are more in common with Catholics then Protestants.  And any good Catholic would tell you that when you leave the church you are leaving God's church for something less.

I may be wrong, but here is what I see as the elephant in the room:  The girlfriend seems to be hinting that she'll transition to a Protestant church if they can find one both are comfortable in. Either she's not very dedicated to her LDS upbringing, she loves/respects this young man enough to follow his spiritual leadership, or...and I hope not... she's leading him on, with the hopes he'll eventually convert.

[prisonchaplain]

7 hours ago, AbramM said:

but if she thinks that I dont then why woulf she want to marry me anyway. 

THIS!

[prisonchaplain]

7 hours ago, AbramM said:

You believe that my girlfriend is with God now because she attends LDS church you believe she would be leaving God if she went to a protestant church. So clearly you believe that I don't know God. You can't have it both ways. 

 

Perhaps this will help:  LDS believe they have added truths and God's authority. So, if someone has this added knowledge and authority, and leaves it for human love, then it might seem like leaving God. On the other hand, you, as a traditional Christian, do not have this added knowledge and authority. So, you certainly have a measure of faith, and of allegiance to Jesus. You would not be blamed for abandoning God. However, of course, members would want to share with you the added truths and authority they believe they have.

[prisonchaplain]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Prisonchaplain, I think Mores was being satirical-- pointing out the hypocrisy behind the idea that if Abham wants his girlfriend to convert and doesn't realize that it would be a conversion, but he's unwilling to convert for her.

Of course: you, I, and many others have urged that no one convert for any mortal.  

Possible. However, we all want each other to convert. I don't see @AbramM as being hypocritical. Rather, this girlfriend has led him to believe she is open to "the right Protestant church." So, he's been attempting to find one. He never pretended to be open to LDS conversion, and seems to have been above board in his communications. The gal is not here to defend herself, so I do not judge her. However, I can't blame @AbramM for trying . . .

[Jane_Doe]

40 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I may be wrong, but here is what I see as the elephant in the room:  The girlfriend seems to be hinting that she'll transition to a Protestant church if they can find one both are comfortable in. Either she's not very dedicated to her LDS upbringing, she loves/respects this young man enough to follow his spiritual leadership, or...and I hope not... she's leading him on, with the hopes he'll eventually convert.

Honestly, I don't really see that at all, but we really don't know.  The only person that knows is her. Abram and her really need to have some good communication here.  

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

The short answer is YES, of course. If I were to become LDS, would I not be baptized? 

Of course you would say so. You're a chaplain.  But I've just had too many friends of all sorts of catholic and protestant denominations who swear up and down that they SO believe their faith, yet can't even explain the difference between trinitarian and modalists.  Yet that is "Central" to their faith.

Somehow I have to question their sincerity when they can't explain even the most basic AND core beliefs of their so called faith.

I'm not talking about something really deep or complex.  I'm talking simple and basic.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Mores

[AbramM]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, this is what LDS believes - There is One God in 3 personages - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  

 There ya go.  You have that in common.

No we don't. You believe those 3 are 3 separate beings. I don't believe that at all. 

 

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

God, man, and angels are the same being.

I don't believe that

[Guest Mores]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

In fairness, @AbramM is getting mixed signals. Did you read @Mores's post, just a couple back. He almost argued the opposite--that changing to LDS would not be much of a change at all. I agree with you more, but it's not like he's getting one clear answer.

As I indicated above I believe you may have Ave misinterpreted my intent.  But I suppose I could have been less cryptic.

[AbramM]

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

You do not realize the blessing your are walking in, my brother. There are far more female high-teen-to-20-somethings looking for a godly man than vice versa. My oldest (18) just get accepted to the Grand Canyon University, in AZ. It looks like there is a 2:1 female/male ratio. In the honors college it's more like 3:1. Involve yourself in the work of the Lord, in missions, in faithful church service. The LORD will provide, and His timing will be perfect.

Yes but lots of girls I dated before seemed Godly and then after a while I realised they're not. I dated a girl who goes to my church for a few weeks and then she wanted to fornicate with me.  Another girl I met at a Southern Baptist Convention got me a fake ID so I could take her to a bar. I don't drink and it's dishonest to use a fake ID. 

It makes me want to stop dating.  

[AbramM]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Honestly, I don't really see that at all, but we really don't know.  The only person that knows is her. Abram and her really need to have some good communication here.  

I've tried with her but she keeps telling me she will attend a protestant church with me. Then she doesn't show up on Sunday. She won't level with me about what she believes, maybe she is scared I will leave her but I'm not going to promise her I won't leave her yo get her to open up

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, AbramM said:

No we don't. You believe those 3 are 3 separate beings. I don't believe that at all. 

Wait what?  You said, God is a being.  We believe the same thing.  So those 3 can’t be different beings.  They’re 3 separate persons, One God.

 

Quote

 

I don't believe that

Yes.  But how does that affect your “foundational faith”?

Edited March 26, 2019 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, AbramM said:

Yes but lots of girls I dated before seemed Godly and then after a while I realised they're not. I dated a girl who goes to my church for a few weeks and then she wanted to fornicate with me.  Another girl I met at a Southern Baptist Convention got me a fake ID so I could take her to a bar. I don't drink and it's dishonest to use a fake ID. 

It makes me want to stop dating.  

Ah... but it's working. As you slowly date with gals, and get to know them, you learn whether you really share faith or not. It's not the 99 that don't work out that matter, but the one that does.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, Mores said:

As I indicated above I believe you may have Ave misinterpreted my intent.  But I suppose I could have been less cryptic.

The last thing I want to do is tell the author of a post that he is interpreting himself wrong. So, sure, you were being sarcastic to point out that if we want others to be open to conversion we should be to. You also argue that many traditional Christians claim to strongly believe in doctrines they cannot even adequately define (ergo, maybe the difference is not so great).

First, I agree that church education has suffered in the last generation. So much focus on good music and therapeutic messages, and not so much on "divisive" doctrines. As a result, some end up strongly believing their church, but not fully understanding its teachings--even the foundational ones.

Still, in most interfaith encounters, both parties hope the other converts and very much wants them to be open to doing so, even while they have little willingness to consider that change for themselves. I'm not so sure this is hypocrisy. Perhaps it's a combination of our natural stubbornness and our general confidence in our faith systems.

Edited March 26, 2019 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, AbramM said:

I've tried with her but she keeps telling me she will attend a protestant church with me. Then she doesn't show up on Sunday. She won't level with me about what she believes, maybe she is scared I will leave her but I'm not going to promise her I won't leave her yo get her to open up

You've said this type of thing in several posts now. My outsider perspective is that your relationship is not built on trust. She likes you and wants you, but she is not being open with you. This has gone on for months. If you don't want to just give up, perhaps the time for a frank conversation has come. Are you really open to joining in a traditional Christian church? Do you really believe you share like precious faith with me? Will you really consider me as the authoritative priest of our household? Are you or are you not a dedicated LDS believer? Let her know that if communication cannot be open and trusting then the relationship appears to be built on a foundation of sand.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, AbramM said:

I've tried with her but she keeps telling me she will attend a protestant church with me. Then she doesn't show up on Sunday. She won't level with me about what she believes, maybe she is scared I will leave her but I'm not going to promise her I won't leave her yo get her to open up

Hence my offer to talk to the both of you, to help facilitate communication.  

Myself and many others have also recommend counseling for that purpose.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, AbramM said:

No we don't. You believe those 3 are 3 separate beings. I don't believe that at all. 

 

I don't believe that

Okay, going what you call "scholarly" here.  LDS Christians and Athanasian Christians (aka Christians that believe the Athanasian Creed) both believe:

-The Father is 100% divine.

-The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.

-The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.

-The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.  

-The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself.  Neither of them are the Spirit.  They are 3 different persons. 

-The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God (are monotheists).

 

The difference comes in:

-LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity (complete unity of purpose, will, glory, etc).

-Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation (aka having a shared ousia), as codified in the Athanasian Creed written 500 AD.

 

Now, I don't know how important that difference is to you.   As you said earlier, you have not heard of ousia or the Athanasian Creed before this conversation and consider this conversation to scholarly beyond your expertise.  And honestly, if I were to grab 10 Baptist 20-something-year-olds, I would be lucky if 1 of them would have this knowledge.  It's just not stressed, it's confusing, and doesn't really come up day to day for any group of Christians. But that is the difference between the views.  

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jane_Doe

[prisonchaplain]

@AbramM, a book that you and your girlfriend may want to read together is:  How Wide the Divide:  https://www.amazon.com/How-Wide-Divide-Evangelical-Conversation/dp/0830819916/ref=sr_1_1?crid=178SZPST37Q2D&keywords=how+wide+the+divide&qid=1553580343&s=gateway&sprefix=how+wide+the+divide%2Caps%2C226&sr=8-1

Note that you can buy it used for less than $6 delivered. It explores the major differences between traditional Evangelical beliefs and those of LDS. The authors are an Evangelical professor and an LDS one from Brigham Young University. Both are respectful and write in easy-to-understand wording. It might help you to understand the doctrinal differences in a private setting, where you do not feel forced to represent traditional Christianity in a public forum.

Edited March 26, 2019 by prisonchaplain

[AbramM]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Wait what?  You said, God is a being.  We believe the same thing.  So those 3 can’t be different beings.  They’re 3 separate persons, One God

You believe those 3 separate beings are 3 separate persons. I believe those 3 separate beings are 1 person. That 1 person is God. The 3 beings are father, son and holy spirit. 

 

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Yes.  But how does that affect your “foundational faith”?

Yes it does. What I believe about the father, son and spirit is the foundation of my faith. 

[NightSG]

12 hours ago, AbramM said:

I thought they were devotional books. Like you get at Methodist church with select prayers the whole congregation read. 

They do?  I was raised Methodist and I don't think any of us ever read those outside the bathroom.

They even come in different sizes depending on whether you have the whole toilet tank lid to keep them on or if you keep the spare TP rolls up there too.

Honestly, I think their real purpose is to showcase some of the worst Christian artwork in history.  The cover art is amazingly bad most of the time.

[AbramM]

18 minutes ago, NightSG said:

They do?  I was raised Methodist and I don't think any of us ever read those outside the bathroom.

When I studied in England I attended a Methodist church and they had them there. Maybe it's different in America.

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, AbramM said:

You believe those 3 separate beings are 3 separate persons. I believe those 3 separate beings are 1 person. That 1 person is God. The 3 beings are father, son and holy spirit. 

 

Yes it does. What I believe about the father, son and spirit is the foundation of my faith. 

I think you got that reversed?

3 persons/1 being.

Quote

There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

Unless I misunderstand Baptist ideas, it would normally would be taught that there are 3 persons but of one being.  The Faith and Message implies it is three personages but of one being.

 

PS: I believe this was just a wording mistake on your part as I think you have listed it the other way around in prior posts in this thread.

Edited March 26, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[AbramM]

14 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Unless I misunderstand Baptist ideas, it would normally would be taught that there are 3 persons but of one being.  The Faith and Message implies it is three personages but of one being.

Yeah God in 3 persons but one being.

 

14 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

PS: I believe this was just a wording mistake on your part as I think you have listed it the other way around in prior posts in this thread.

Yes I was tired. I haven't slept in 3 days.