Please can I ask your advice on finding a church to attend with my girlfriend.

[Guest Mores]

8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The last thing I want to do is tell the author of a post that he is interpreting himself wrong.

I appreciate that.  And I'll reiterate that I was open to the fact that I was fairly cryptic.  So, I understand if someone else misinterpreted.

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So, sure, you were being sarcastic to point out that if we want others to be open to conversion we should be to. 

That was only a secondary point.

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You also argue that many traditional Christians claim to strongly believe in doctrines they cannot even adequately define (ergo, maybe the difference is not so great).

This was my primary point.

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First, I agree that church education has suffered in the last generation. So much focus on good music and therapeutic messages, and not so much on "divisive" doctrines. As a result, some end up strongly believing their church, but not fully understanding its teachings--even the foundational ones.

So far so good.  For the record, I recognize that Latter-day Saints are not immune from this.  But the standardization of our organized religion and lesson manuals, top-down doctrines, and so many religious education programs make it less common among adults who have been in the Church for many years.  The intellectually challenged are excepted, of course.

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Still, in most interfaith encounters, both parties hope the other converts and very much wants them to be open to doing so, even while they have little willingness to consider that change for themselves. I'm not so sure this is hypocrisy. Perhaps it's a combination of our natural stubbornness and our general confidence in our faith systems.

Stubbornness I certainly understand.  But I wonder how one has confidence in something that they don't understand.  I, myself, have less confidence in those parts of my faith that I don't understand.  It is when I come to an understanding of a principle that I have confidence in it.  Prior to that, I may say I have faith.  But that alone cannot remain forever.  And the more fundamental/core/basic the principle, the more important it is to gain a great understanding of it.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Mores

[AbramM]

9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

You've said this type of thing in several posts now. My outsider perspective is that your relationship is not built on trust. She likes you and wants you, but she is not being open with you. This has gone on for months. If you don't want to just give up, perhaps the time for a frank conversation has come. Are you really open to joining in a traditional Christian church? Do you really believe you share like precious faith with me? Will you really consider me as the authoritative priest of our household? Are you or are you not a dedicated LDS believer? Let her know that if communication cannot be open and trusting then the relationship appears to be built on a foundation of sand.

 

9 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Hence my offer to talk to the both of you, to help facilitate communication.  

Myself and many others have also recommend counseling for that purpose.

I haven't spoken to her for a couple of days now but I'm going to see her this evening so we can talk. I'm going to ask her to come with me to church on Sunday (I will choose one or she can) and see if she wants to.

She already knows what I believe really well because she came to my bible study for a few months. I will find out if she wants to commit to those beliefs and be with me or not. Our relationship depends on what the Lord puts on her heart more than our communication though. 

Even if she says yes to being a protestant it has to be a true conversion not just to marry me. So I'm not going to marry her anytime soon as I need to see in her a change so if she doesn't trust me then she has time to build that before marrying me. 

If she wants to stay LDS then I will tell her we can't get married. 

[NeuroTypical]

Sounds like a good plan.

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, AbramM said:

You believe those 3 separate beings are 3 separate persons. I believe those 3 separate beings are 1 person. That 1 person is God. The 3 beings are father, son and holy spirit. 

Uhm, you’re getting mixed up.  In Trinitarian belief, there are 3 PERSONS in One God.

 

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Yes it does. What I believe about the father, son and spirit is the foundation of my faith. 

So, it’s a foundation of your faith but the concept is so nebulous that the words you use to describe that foundation gets all mixed up.

So, ok, we have a common foundational belief - there are 3 separate and distinct Persons in One God.  This is the Trinitarian position as well as LDS position.

Baptists are not creedal because they are sola scriptura evangelists but they do believe in the Trinity which is not biblical but creedal.  But you, personally, don’t know what a creed is, so it is not the basis of your Trinitarian belief.  Therefore, I conclude, the difference between your Trinitarian belief and the LDS Monotheistic Godhead is irrelevant to your faith in the same manner that the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist Sunday Service is irrelevant to your faith.

To conclude - I posit that your religious differences between your girlfriend and you on your foundational faith is not irreconcilable.  It’s not the faith that is in conflict, it is simply the Trust and Communication factor.

Edited March 26, 2019 by anatess2

[AbramM]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, it’s a foundation of your faith but the concept is so nebulous that the words you use to describe that foundation gets all mixed up.

Yeah sorry I was tired I meant that God is 3 persons, father, son and holy spirit but they are 1 being that being is God. You believe The 3 persons are 3 beings.

 

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

the Trinity which is not biblical

I believe the Trinity to be biblical 

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Therefore, I conclude, the difference between your Trinitarian belief and the LDS Monotheistic Godhead is irrelevant to your faith

It is very relevant to my faith. My understanding and beliefs about God are centred on the trinity. Without the trinity I have no firm understanding of God. 

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, AbramM said:

Yeah sorry I was tired I meant that God is 3 persons, father, son and holy spirit but they are 1 being that being is God. You believe The 3 persons are 3 beings.

Depends on your definition of Being.  From your definition, you said God is a being, Man is a different being, Angel is a different being, Dog is a different being...

By this definition of Being (different from Person) - there is also one God being in the LDS faith.  They're not 3 different beings.  They're 3 different PERSONS.

 

1 minute ago, AbramM said:

 

I believe the Trinity to be biblical 

Ohhh... I get to test a Baptist's Bible Memory!  Chapter and verse... 

 

 

1 minute ago, AbramM said:

It is very relevant to my faith. My understanding and beliefs about God are centred on the trinity. Without the trinity I have no firm understanding of God. 

Okay.  I actually understand what you mean about the Trinity - I was raised Catholic.  So, what exactly is it about the one-ness of the Trinity that your firm understanding is based on?  Is it simply that God is One?  Or is it that it has to be HOW God is One?

[person0]

3 hours ago, AbramM said:

If she wants to stay LDS then I will tell her we can't get married.

If she were participating in this forum, I can assure you she would receive that exact advice, only opposite.

Just to give you a heads up, the only way she will even come close to feeling comfortable leaving our Church is if she were to decide that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not true.  I'm not sure if it has been pointed out to you yet this directly, but we literally believe and teach that our Church is the only true church on the face of the whole earth.  Unless she is severely under-educated on gospel principles, then for her to leave our faith to become a member of any other church is an act of apostasy; she would literally be leaving the One True Church to become a member of a false church.  This is in no way meant to be demeaning, but this is the reality of how Latter-Day Saints understand the gospel; there is only 'one Lord, one faith, and one baptism', and we are the ones who know it and have the authority to teach and administer it.  Asking someone who truly believes in the Restored Gospel to leave it to accept a different version of the gospel would be similar to asking someone who is lactose intolerant to start drinking a glass of milk with every meal.  In the eyes of a faithful member of our Church, we have the truth, and the only alternative to the truth is something that is not truth.

I notice you are discussing the doctrine of the Trinity with @anatess2, this is something that Latter-Day Saints view as a false understanding of the Godhead.  So your girlfriend would literally have to make a 180 degree turn and start believing that her current understanding of the Godhead is false and that the protestant concept of the Trinity is true.  Unless she is not currently very faithful, I can't imagine she would be willing to make that big of a change just to marry you; if so, then I would imagine her lack of faithfulness would carry over with her to her new faith.

Based on what I have read of your early statements, if I were to venture a guess, I would almost bet that she is wanting to marry you, but is hoping that you will eventually see the light and become a member of our Church at some point in the future.  If that is the case, it would be wrong for her to think that way, but I have seen that type of thing happen plenty of times in my life.

If I'm being honest, I don't really care what happens with your relationship, because there are plenty of fish in the sea, but I do encourage you to truly study and ponder the teachings of the Restored Gospel for yourself.

[unixknight]

24 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ohhh... I get to test a Baptist's Bible Memory!  Chapter and verse... 

I predict he will reply with John 10:30.

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I predict he will reply with John 10:30.

Dude!  You obviously hasn't played a hustle in your life... you're not supposed to let on that LDS members know their Bible. 

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Dude!  You obviously hasn't played a hustle in your life... you're not supposed to let on that LDS members know their Bible. 

D'oh!  You're right, my bad.  It's just that I'm eagerly anticipating the riposte.  

[AbramM]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Ohhh... I get to test a Baptist's Bible Memory!  Chapter and verse... 

 

I would easily pass 🤣

I always won the memory verse competitions at Backyard Bible club. 

[AbramM]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Okay.  I actually understand what you mean about the Trinity - I was raised Catholic.  So, what exactly is it about the one-ness of the Trinity that your firm understanding is based on?  Is it simply that God is One?  Or is it that it has to be HOW God is One?

Yes it has to be how God is one.

[AbramM]

54 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I predict he will reply with John 10:30.

The father and son are one. Correct.

[unixknight]

30 minutes ago, AbramM said:

The father and son are one. Correct.

In the Garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus said "Not my will, but thine be done" who was He addressing?

Who did Jesus say forsook Him as he was dying on the cross, when He said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

When Jesus was baptized, who was it that said "Behold my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased?"

The trinitarian answer to all 3 of those is "Himself."  Is that your answer, and does it make sense?

 

[Manners Matter]

43 minutes ago, AbramM said:

The father and son are one. Correct.

They are one in *purpose* but as @unixknight indicates, they are separate individuals.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, AbramM said:

Yeah sorry I was tired I meant that God is 3 persons, father, son and holy spirit but they are 1 being that being is God. You believe The 3 persons are 3 beings.

 

I believe the Trinity to be biblical 

It is very relevant to my faith. My understanding and beliefs about God are centred on the trinity. Without the trinity I have no firm understanding of God. 

 

45 minutes ago, AbramM said:

The father and son are one. Correct.

Abham, LDS folks 100% believe the Bible.  `100% believe John 10:30, it's actually one of my personal favorite verses.  

 

 

 

The Athanasian doctrine of the Trinity (the whole person vs being & ousia stuff) include MORE than just the Bible.  It is a specific interpretation of the Bible that was cemented 300-500 AD by the Eumerical Councils whom declared: (bolding mine)

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."   -- The Athanasian Creed.

 

That Creed, written 500 AD, is the codification of the Trinity.  

I totally acknowledge your Baptist faith and am NO way threatening that.  If fact, I encourage you to strengthen your love of Christ by deepening it with more study and prayer.   Just for your own sake, completely separate from any girlfriend or LDS Christian stuff.  Strengthen your bond with Christ by learning and faith.  

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jane_Doe

[AbramM]

2 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

They are one in *purpose* but as @unixknight indicates, they are separate individuals.

Well ma'am I respectfully disagree. 

 

[unixknight]

10 minutes ago, AbramM said:

Well ma'am I respectfully disagree. 

I'm looking forward to the answers to my questions, then.  

[JohnsonJones]

45 minutes ago, unixknight said:

In the Garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus said "Not my will, but thine be done" who was He addressing?

Who did Jesus say forsook Him as he was dying on the cross, when He said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

When Jesus was baptized, who was it that said "Behold my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased?"

The trinitarian answer to all 3 of those is "Himself."  Is that your answer, and does it make sense?

 

Not really...at least from my understanding of the trinity.

That could be a modalist's answer, or a view found in modalism, but not really Trinitarians.

NOW, if you look at the Baptist Faith and Message I understand that it is phrased in such a manner today due to some disagreements among a minority of them in this regard, where almost all are Trinitarian but you also have a few modalist in the mix.  For the SBC, because of this, it is not quite as clear as it would be from a purely completely Trinitarian stated point of view.  For a TRUE Trinitarian, they would not view it as you state.

They view them as three distinctly different persons.  They are different people.  Thus, he was addressing his Father who is as separate a person as you and I.

However, they are of the same substance.  This is that they are of the divine substance.  They are one in that they are the same as well.  This is where we can get into the idea that this can be a little incomprehensible to understand with our mortal minds.  They are three individuals, and yet they are also the same. 

Another way I have explained it in the past (though I have found some Trinitarians also do not like this explanation), as it can help understand the part of comprehension, even if it cannot cover the incomprehensible...

You have a right hand and a left hand as well as a head.  Your right hand is NOT your left hand.  They are not the same thing.  They are completely and wholly different.  They can act independently of each other and do different things.  At the same time they are also connected.  They are the same substance and the same thing.  They share the same substance and the same will and ideal. 

Some Trinitarians would also include, imagine if the hands also had their own ability to act on their own accord, but at the same time, just as your own hands do, were of the same will and ability.

Thus, the son is as much the Son as your son would be yours.  His father is just as much his father as you are your son's father.  However, he is also of the same substance as the Father.  As this substance is omnipresent, it means that they are of necessity the same as well.  That's a bad explanation, but them being one can also be hard to explain.  They are literally also the same, and thus are also one. 

[AbramM]

28 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm looking forward to the answers to my questions, then.  

I can reply later but at the moment I have to meet my pastor right now. When I'm done then I will reply 

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not really...at least from my understanding of the trinity...

I used to be Catholic.  I get all that stuff.  I'm just interested in @AbramM's response.

[Jane_Doe]

8 minutes ago, AbramM said:

I can reply later but at the moment I have to meet my pastor right now. When I'm done then I will reply 

It is good to talk to people, and seek wise elder's advice.

However, it notable that not all clergy of group X are experts on group Y.  In fact, I find a lot of the time a clergy person of group X will have really poor quality about group Y.  Which isn't to say that that person is a bad pastor (not at all!  Some of them are FANTASTIC pastors), just that they don't always have good information on another's perspective.  

[AbramM]

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

In the Garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus said "Not my will, but thine be done" who was He addressing?

 

He was addressing God the father. Jesus is God the Son and he became God the father's servant. 

“He made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and came in the likeness of men,” Philippians  2:7.

The son is telling the father that the father's will is to be done as the son is the servant. 

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

 Who did Jesus say forsook Him as he was dying on the cross, when He said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

The father and the holy spirit forsook the son. 

The judgment was to have God the Father pour out his wrath, and instead of pouring it out on us, he pours it out on him. That necessarily involves a kind of abandonment. That is what wrath means. He gave him up to suffer the weight of all the sins of all of his people and the judgment for those sins.

Also, it could be argued (I don't really believe this but some people do) that Christ was quoting Psalm 22. Rather than praying. 

 

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

 When Jesus was baptized, who was it that said "Behold my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased?"

 

God the father said that. Jesus is God the son he is not God the father or the holy spirit. Of course it makes sense for the father to say that. 

---Taken from Eliot's pulpit commentary. 

At Christ's baptism there was a manifestation of the three Persons in the sacred Trinity. The Father confirming the Son to be Mediator; the Son solemnly entering upon the work; the Holy Spirit descending on him, to be through his mediation communicated to his people. 

 

I know it can be confusing to understand but there are lots of scriptures I could show you that prove the trinity. 

[AbramM]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

They view them as three distinctly different persons.  They are different people.  Thus, he was addressing his Father who is as separate a person as you and I.

 

Exactly. The father is not the son, the son is not the father etc. You have a good understanding of the trinity.

[AbramM]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I totally acknowledge your Baptist faith and am NO way threatening that.  

Please I don't have a Baptist faith I'm a Christian who attends a baptist church. My faith is in Christ and not in the baptist church.