askandanswer

Doctrine and Covenants 122:8

Recommended Posts

8  The Son of Man hath descended below them all.  Art thou greater than he?

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8)

Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, person0 said:

If we are to compare ourselves to Christ and seek to emulate Him, how could it be anything other than an apples to apples comparison?

Well, its just that sometimes I hear that His father was God, whereas my father is not, and this probably results in  significant differences - possibly even enough differences that it might be more like an apples with oranges comparison. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Well, its just that sometimes I hear that His father was God, whereas my father is not, and this probably results in  significant differences - possibly even enough differences that it might be more like an apples with oranges comparison. 

His father might have been God, but He was still raised by Joseph and Mary.  Biologically, God is still a man.  Other than that, I'm not sure what kinds of differences you might be referring to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

apples to apples

Be ye therefore perfect - eventually.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

Elohim designed apples spiritually.

The tree that produced humanity was planted and nourished by Jehovah.

I like the analogy.

Edited by mikbone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

8  The Son of Man hath descended below them all.  Art thou greater than he?

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8)

Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? ...

Pretty sure it's more about making a point, reminding Joseph of something, rather than literally asking a simple yes/no question.  He's saying, "Get some perspective, Joseph.  I've been through worse.  I'll help you endure this.  If you're humble."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

8  The Son of Man hath descended below them all.  Art thou greater than he?

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8)

Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison?

I believe so, absolutely. In fact, we are constantly urged throughout scripture to compare ourselves with the Lord. We will always come up short, of course; but the point is that we can get an idea of what our next step might be.

The wording of the above verse is interesting to me. What would being greater than Christ have to do with Christ descending below all things? Is God saying that as long as Joseph isn't better than Christ, he should not expect better treatment?

I think he's saying rather the opposite of this: You are not greater than Christ, so the things required of Christ will not be required of you. In other words, don't despair and don't even worry. Your pains will be "swallowed up in the joy of Christ".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

8  The Son of Man hath descended below them all.  Art thou greater than he?

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8)

Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison?

 

Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here?

Yes, a comparison is being made in order to bring things into proper perspective. It is also why I love the following words of Isaiah, "It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant." (emphasis mine). It isn't only a comparison though it is reminding us of who conquered all things, and that by Him we too can conquer all things.

If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison?

I honestly would say it is both. We are comparing apples with apples and we are also comparing apples with oranges. The apples to apples is knowing that we all face opposition. We all will face something difficult -- Abrahamic test so to speak. Truth in proper light is what allows us to be masters of our own fate.

At the same time, our Savior's duty could have only been performed by him, and there you have the orange. All the trials I have faced I believe there are many of my brothers and sisters who have faced similar challenges. Although unique to me, it isn't something I could have only done and accomplished. Joseph is brought into perfect perspective -- truth -- by which he can then move forward with true light, and we definitely recognize it is a light thing to be the Lord's servant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

8  The Son of Man hath descended below them all.  Art thou greater than he?

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8)

Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison?

 

This specific verse is not for comparison.  This specific verse is for inspiration (or admonishment) to pull up your bootstraps and stop whining about all the hardships you're going through in the name of God. ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Vort said:

I believe so, absolutely. In fact, we are constantly urged throughout scripture to compare ourselves with the Lord. We will always come up short, of course; but the point is that we can get an idea of what our next step might be.

The wording of the above verse is interesting to me. What would being greater than Christ have to do with Christ descending below all things? Is God saying that as long as Joseph isn't better than Christ, he should not expect better treatment?

I think he's saying rather the opposite of this: You are not greater than Christ, so the things required of Christ will not be required of you. In other words, don't despair and don't even worry. Your pains will be "swallowed up in the joy of Christ".

In Relief Society yesterday, we had a discussion about the three D's that Satan uses to keep us from heaven - deception, distraction, discouragement.  One of the shields we have from these 3 D's is the scriptures.  It is when we read the Scriptures - of what God required of Jesus and what Jesus required of his prophets and apostles - that we realize these things that are discouraging us from continuing on the path are things that have been trod by, not only Jesus' disciplies but Jesus himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was a young kid I loved to ski.  I grew up with an idol named Tony Seyler.  I believe he was to first to win 3 gold Olympic medals in alpine events.  I would study his techniques and do everything I could to copy and duplicate him.  At great expense to myself, I even copied his outfit - I wore an exact copy of his hat from Austria.  Obviously the comparison of myself to Tony was more fantasy than reality.  But there is a point.  I did not need anyone to tell me anything about Tony - I made myself expert concerning him.  No one encouraged me to learn more about Tony and it seemed that should I encounter anyone that recognized the name - I was much more the expert.  When I went skiing I did all I could to ski like him.  Even when I was not skiing - I thought to act like him.

I do not believe learning of Christ and trying to behave as I think he would has been any more difficult.   In fact - I believe it to be more satisfying and realistic.

 

The Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2019 at 11:46 AM, zil said:

Pretty sure it's more about making a point, reminding Joseph of something, rather than literally asking a simple yes/no question.  He's saying, "Get some perspective, Joseph.  I've been through worse.  I'll help you endure this.  If you're humble."

I read this on https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun,

"Joseph was not guilty of murder, because no one died from his shots, and his 
actions would have been justifiable as self-defense and defense of others even 
if deaths had resulted"

Did the words of 122:7 ("know thou, my son, that all these things shall give 
thee experience, and shall be for thy good") have any influence on his decision 
to shoot those who were trying to kill him?

I'm confused about the phrase in 122:9 ("... for their bounds are set, they 
cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less").
I'm assuming it was said in the context of his being imprisoned.

What does it mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Jonah said:

I'm confused about the phrase in 122:9 ("... for their bounds are set, they  cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less"). I'm assuming it was said in the context of his being imprisoned.

I'm impressed at your careful reading of a late section in the Doctrine and Covenants, something I hazard a guess that the majority of Latter-day Saints haven't done.

But in that case, I'm confused at your confusion. What is there to be confused about? This passage seems eminently straightforward to me. Can you elaborate on what you find so perpexing about it?

Edited by Vort

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Jonah said:

I read this on https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun,

"Joseph was not guilty of murder, because no one died from his shots, and his 
actions would have been justifiable as self-defense and defense of others even 
if deaths had resulted"

Did the words of 122:7 ("know thou, my son, that all these things shall give 
thee experience, and shall be for thy good") have any influence on his decision 
to shoot those who were trying to kill him?

I'm confused about the phrase in 122:9 ("... for their bounds are set, they 
cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less").
I'm assuming it was said in the context of his being imprisoned.

What does it mean?

Please check the headings for D&C 122 (Liberty jail, 1839) and 135 (Joseph was killed at Carthage, 1844).  Two different events, far apart.

1) I'm no history buff, not even Church history, but from what I know, it seems to me Joseph Smith, Jr. always believed in a person's right to defend themselves, so this doesn't seem out of character.  What influence his experience in Liberty jail had on his behavior in Carthage jail, I couldn't begin to guess.

2) D&C 122:9 - "their bounds are set, they cannot pass" to me means that there are limits to what evil people will be allowed to do (even though it may not seem that way sometimes), or at least the specific evil people in question.  "Thy days are known..." meant the Lord would preserve Joseph Smith, Jr.'s life1 until Joseph had finished the work the Lord had planned.

1From elsewhere (no, I don't have a specific reference - the entire D&C, maybe), it's quite clear that this promise was conditional on Joseph's obedience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, zil said:

(no, I don't have a specific reference - the entire D&C, maybe)

That's okay. People who participate in these fora know restored scriptures (and the various editions of Gospel Principles) inside and out. We all know what you're talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

That's okay. People who participate in these fora know restored scriptures (and the various editions of Gospel Principles) inside and out. We all know what you're talking about.

Sorry, but I'm lazy. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Vort said:

I'm impressed at your careful reading of a late section in the Doctrine and Covenants, something I hazard a guess that the majority of Latter-day Saints haven't done.

But in that case, I'm confused at your confusion. What is there to be confused about? This passage seems eminently straightforward to me. Can you elaborate on what you find so perpexing about it?

Did it mean that Joseph Smith should allow what was going to happen without putting
up any resistance or do whatever he could to stay alive in light of his days not being
less than what he thought?

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, mordorbund said:

That's okay. People who participate in these fora know restored scriptures (and the various editions of Gospel Principles) inside and out. We all know what you're talking about.

OK, first instance: D&C 3:5-15.  I'm sure there are other places where the Lord tells Joseph that blessings are conditional on obedience, but I don't think there's an index entry for that, especially not one specific to Joseph himself, and I can't think of search terms that would find them, so this will have to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now