What is Command over the Elements?

[LugiaLvl138]

When I was 15, in a Teachers Quorum lesson about the power of the Melchezidek Priesthood, I was told that among plenty of other things, I would have access to something called Command over the Elements. I immediately pictured the Periodic Table, and then quickly realized that if I heard right, the Melchezidek Priesthood would allow me to turn a bar of Lead into Gold. I imagined the looks on the faces of alchemists who have attempted that for centuries as I did so in front of them. Any why stop at Lead I thought. Water is simply Hydrogen and Oxygen mixed together, so I could turn bottles of water into bottles of Gold then too. I raised my hand and said out loud "Could I use the Priesthood to turn a bar of Lead into a bar of Gold?" The teacher told me that first it would have to he God's will for the Lead to turn to Gold and that second I would need a righteous reason for doing so. I knew I just wanted to make myself rich and see the look on people's faces so that put me in my place, and I have never actually attempted to use the Melchezidek Priesthood to practice Alchemy.

The phrase Command over the Elements, still puzzles me though. Outside that lesson I don't think I've ever heard that phrase used again. Some have told me that Elements refers to Earth, Water, Air, Fire. Which would signify that Melchezidek Priesthood holders have access to all 4 of Earthbending, Airbending, Waterbending, and Firebending then. I do hear the phrase The Faith to move Mountains from time to time, which taken literally would mean Earthbending.

Edited January 15, 2020 by LugiaLvl138

[zil]

9 minutes ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

Earthbending, Airbending, Waterbending, and Firebending

Please try not to mix the priesthood with concepts from fantasy fiction or games - IMO, the mixing will only harm in the long run.

Other than that, I refer you to the hymn "Master, the Tempest Is Raging" (and its linked scriptures) as a starting point.  "Elements" in this context would usually mean the weather - as when Jesus calmed the stormy sea.  But could also refer to incidents such as when the children of Israel crossed the Red Sea on dry ground (and Joshua with the river Jordan), or those described in Moses 7.

A study of scripture will show more than casual cause for such events.

IMO, a far greater power would be the power to love God with all your heart and mind, and to then go share that love with those around you.  The sooner one figures out how to gain this power, the sooner one will have more than enough power to do everything one could really want.

[zil]

Just now, zil said:

the hymn "Master, the Tempest Is Raging"

Decided it warrants a quote:

Quote

No waters can swallow the ship where lies

The Master of ocean and earth and skies.

Be the ship.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

When I was 15, in a Teachers Quorum lesson about the power of the Melchezidek Priesthood, I was told that among plenty of other things, I would have access to something called Command over the Elements. I immediately pictured the Periodic Table, and then quickly realized that if I heard right, the Melchezidek Priesthood would allow me to turn a bar of Lead into Gold. I imagined the looks on the faces of alchemists who have attempted that for centuries as I did so in front of them. Any why stop at Lead I thought. Water is simply Hydrogen and Oxygen mixed together, so I could turn bottles of water into bottles of Gold then too. I raised my hand and said out loud "Could I use the Priesthood to turn a bar of Lead into a bar of Gold?" The teacher told me that first it would have to he God's will for the Lead to turn to Gold and that second I would need a righteous reason for doing so. I knew I just wanted to make myself rich and see the look on people's faces so that put me in my place, and I have never actually attempted to use the Melchezidek Priesthood to practice Alchemy.

The phrase Command over the Elements, still puzzles me though. Outside that lesson I don't think I've ever heard that phrase used again. Some have told me that Elements refers to Earth, Water, Air, Fire. Which would signify that Melchezidek Priesthood holders have access to all 4 of Earthbending, Airbending, Waterbending, and Firebending then. I do hear the phrase The Faith to move Mountains from time to time, which taken literally would mean Earthbending.

I think this sort of thing to be a misunderstanding of the sealing power and keys (Helaman 10, D&C 110). A good example is the keys for the resurrection entail connecting spirit and element (93: 33-35; 131:7-8). Similarly, sealing covenants through the generations ultimately bind spirits and bodies to Christ (e.g. "power over this people"). Both Christ and Nephi had to pray to the Father to use it (3 Nephi 17: 15-25; Helaman 10:5).

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

The phrase Command over the Elements, still puzzles me though. Outside that lesson I don't think I've ever heard that phrase used again. Some have told me that Elements refers to Earth, Water, Air, Fire. Which would signify that Melchezidek Priesthood holders have access to all 4 of Earthbending, Airbending, Waterbending, and Firebending then. I do hear the phrase The Faith to move Mountains from time to time, which taken literally would mean Earthbending.

If using anime terms helps you to understand principles/truths in the gospel I have no problem with it. As your intelligence increases these terms will be insufficient and they will slowly fade away from your gospel vernacular when describing the authority and power of the priesthood.

Let's review the following verse of scripture, "Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea." (emphasis mine)

Another example would be when Nephi prays to the Lord (as already provided) that a famine would replace the war, or cause the war to stop and entice the people to repentance. This is another example of having command over the elements that are upon this earth, and therefore can command a change at is smallest building block.

In our New Testament we are provided with Christ's first miracle the turning of water into wine. This is obviously different from commanding a famine upon the land. The is different than calming a storm, or (as has been already mentioned) causing a great east wind that divided the Red Sea into two while the children of Israel walked on the ground to cross the Red Sea.

Water into wine would be an example of changing one element into another element at its core. If a scientist were to research and test would the scientist have said, "This was never water, it has always been wine"? (But that is a different topic) So, yes, God could easily have command over one element (i.e. copper) and change that element into another element (i.e. gold). He knows the workings at the smallest unit that makes up the element.

When Christ said to the Pharisees, "that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham," I believe to be both literal and figurative.

Faith to move mountains was accomplished by the Brother of Jared. Yes, as God is able to create universes and planets, surely he can move anything within them.

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Anddenex

[Vort]

Word meanings change. The word "power" has a specific definition in physics; it means the rate of energy delivery. It doesn't mean anything else, just that. "Solar power", as the term is usually used, is a misnomer that physicists roll their eyes at, to say nothing of "political power" or "girl power" or "the power of love". How do you suppose "Priesthood power" fits into that definition? (Hint: It doesn't.)

"The elements" mean the essential, basic things around us. The fact that 19th-century chemists assigned a specific definition of the word element, namely a species of atom with a certain positive number of protons in the nucleus, doesn't mean that the old definitions don't work any more. They do.

Consider: The book of Leviticus lists unclean birds that the children of Israel were to avoid eating. The final entry of unclean birds in that list is `atalleph (עֲטַלֵּף), Hebrew for "bat". Now—and I am not making this up—I once heard someone (an atheist) mock the Bible because the book of Leviticus says that bats are birds. No kidding. This guy seriously thought that since ancient Palestinians did not follow our modern taxonomy, but instead counted the bat (a small, winged, flying creature) as a type of bird, that meant that the Bible was made up.

People understand things based on previous experience. But any reasonably intelligent and open-minded person will also understand that words can be used in different ways and with different meanings. The fact that a certain word, e.g. "element", means one thing in Context A and another thing in Context B really shouldn't faze anyone.

The power of the Priesthood—yes, power, even if that doesn't mean rate of energy usage—is not water bending or any other comic book idea. It's the reality of how the universe is put together. It gives control over the elements, where the elements has a much more expansive definition than simply the list of types of atoms with increasing atomic numbers.

[NeuroTypical]

Three stories:

One year, all the Young Women went off to Young Women's camp.  One of the highlights of that camp, is parents write the young women personal letters, and the folks running the camp send them off individually into the woods, to read the letter and then kneel and pray in the beautiful privacy of nature.  It rained a lot.  The spiritual experience was in danger of being cancelled it was raining so hard.  So the Stake President gathered everyone together, and led them in prayer.  He commanded the rain to stop falling, so the YW could have the opportunity of the solo spiritual experience.   The rain stopped falling, and the YW all wandered off into the forest where they had their spiritual experiences in that crisp clean sunny calm you find right after a big storm.  Afterwards, the rain started again.  I heard about this the next testimony meeting, where 3-4 teary YW got up and bore their testimony about the experience.

Back in the mid '80's, Salt Lake was getting hammered by snow in one blizzard after blizzard. Road crews couldn't keep the roads open, power outages were a thing, people were stuck in their homes.  It was getting dangerous, there had been a couple of deaths.  The brethren asked all the saints in the area to join in prayer at a specific time to beseech God to stop the snow so the people might have relief.  I remember the next day it snowed - it made the news as folks guffawed and snorted, and you could tell which local weathermen were LDS and which weren't, by the look of embarrassment or snugness on their faces.  It snowed an inch, maybe two.  Everyone went back to life as usual.  But a few days later, the news was giving a weather report on the next massive blizzard hitting the area.  The weathermen were pointing at the map, describing how this one was missing Salt Lake county.  The radar image showed the whole state mostly covered in white, with this little arc of break in the front, where SLC/Orem/Provo was.  Nobody else seemed to link the praying with the break, but I made the link.

Last story, a few years back, forest fires caused our entire ward to be evacuated.  One of our zealous-to-the-point-of-foolishness High Priests lived in the trees, and decided not to evacuate.  The way he told the story, he had the priesthood and a tractor, so he didn't need to heed any civil authority's call to flee.  He would just command the elements in faith.  He told us he sat there on his tractor watching the fire approach.  When it got close, he bowed his head in mighty prayer and beseeched God to divert the flames from around his property.  Then the flaming ash started falling from the sky.  As he told the story, he was a little embarrassed to say he had to drive his tractor around and put out the dozen or so little fires that started.  He lost a few trees.  I remember wanting to ask him why he asked God instead of commanding the elements.  Did he not have sufficient faith, as he had boasted about going into the event?  But he was telling us the story at a ward social, and I didn't want to get him mad or riled up enough to start a preachy monologue.  Dude is lucky he didn't die.  That fire was the most expensive in Colorado history, and killed two people.

Edited January 16, 2020 by NeuroTypical

[Traveler]

I will add something to @Vort's post in this thread.  When I was in college we studied what was called the Bohr Atomic Theory.  That was 50 years ago and scientific thinking has evolved a great deal since then.  Elements are "well ordered" despite that there are many things that remain unexplained concerning the structure and order of matter (elements).  Beyond the physics that is defined - forces of gravity, electromagnetic force, weak and strong atomic forces - there appears to be actions (order) that indicate intelligence as an element of thermal dynamics  that define the structure of the elements - especially at the subatomic level (quantum physics).  We find a very interesting "word" in scripture - which is WORD.  I submit that priesthood is order -which order is related to how the term "word" is used in gospel of John that then describes the creation spoken of in Genesis.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 16, 2020 by Traveler

[MarkJedidiah]

On 1/15/2020 at 2:45 PM, LugiaLvl138 said:

....The phrase Command over the Elements, still puzzles me though. Outside that lesson I don't think I've ever heard that phrase used again. Some have....

Chrome force-updated on my phone while I was trying to type this out so I had to make sure I typed this out.

Before I begin I would like to caveat what I am about to say with a few things to remember.

This is a topic that you must approach with alot of humility and a healthy portion of caution. There is alot of information out in the world that is designed to use this desire and fascination to pervert your faith. Be careful who and what to trust, and let the holy spirit guide you solely along with your understanding of the word.

 

In mathew it says if you have faith but a mustard seed you can command mountains to move, and they will go to the sea. Understand that a mustard seed is extremely small. The poetry is about a small thing growing larger and becoming stronger, as should your faith. But having true faith, even if only a little, qualifies you to do this.

Jesus granted his disciples the authority to do miracles, as an additional source of divine credentials of sorts. This is proof that he authorizes true believers to perform supernatural feats. However there are some rules that seem to come with this gift.

Understand this gift is not meant to be for your selfish benefit, and will outright fail if you try to do it on a case by case basis. If you try to do it you must expect it to work. With conviction, with absolute confidence and expectation that the command will work, you must fully acknowledge to yourself that it is not "you" doing it, you are not the source, but rather the holy spirit flowing through you.

If you get asked how you were able to do it you must always proclaim that it is because of God's authority over all, and that we are given the authority to command the world(things not people) around us to submit in his name. Never ever ever claim it as a power that you create, it is a gift to be used for his glory, never ours.

Things I've done it with, smoke, electricity, something that was broken and needed to work, people engaged in the occult and I believe we're also possessed. It can be practical but it's significantly stronger if it's directly related to testimony and evangelical uses. The commanding of the people were people threatening me/attacking me, and had to faith in God/Jesus in their hearts. The people themselves still had their free will but where unable to continue threatening/attacking me using spiritual forces/demons. It doesn't make you a puppet master I could never force them to give me riches even if I wanted that. But you can use it for protection from ungodly people/posessed/occult practitioners in a physical sense.

I will check back in a few days if anyone has comments or wants to discuss scripture about my interpretation of the word/why I believe the way I do, my specific experiences and instances of doing these things.

All my gifts are blessings from God to be used for his purpose, plan, for me and my life in him, in Jesus name, Amen.

[mikbone]

 

Edited Thursday at 04:23 PM by mikbone

[ZealoulyStriving]

"32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy mouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.

33 Say unto this people: Choose ye this day, to serve the Lord God who made you.

34 Behold my Spirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the mountains shall flee before you, and the rivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore walk with me." (Moses 6)

[mikbone]

These guys too.

[Traveler]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:01 AM, MarkJedidiah said:

.......

Jesus granted his disciples the authority to do miracles, as an additional source of divine credentials of sorts. This is proof that he authorizes true believers to perform supernatural feats. However there are some rules that seem to come with this gift.

.........

Greetings @MarkJedidiah:

I am going to speculate a little with the assumption that you are not a member or very well acquainted with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Never-the-less welcome to the forum and thank you for your contribution.  It is always interesting to have points of view outside the usual box of LDS posters.  We have a few non-LDS posters – but with the cacophony of LDS that post, many non-LDS are a little shell shocked from diving deep into religious themed discussions – especially if there are scientific ramifications.  

There really is no theologian class within the LDS society.  Even our current Prophet and president made his living (profession) as a world-renowned heart surgeon. There are some that study scholastically into our divine prophetic based theology, but our belief and ordinance structure is not based on scholarship (including scholarship of ancient scripture) but rather on a direct line of priesthood authority to ancient apostles and prophets chosen by Jesus Christ (which was the source anciently of scripture).

As a scientist I believe that I can speak concerning the elements of our universe as unsustainable without intelligent manipulation on at least level III of the Kardashev scale.  As a covenant member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I was ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood through a line direct to Jesus Christ.  I have a complete line without any gaps or missing pieces or even speculations.  A line of authority necessary to prepare a people for the inevitable return of the Messiah.   Those Christians of the Protestant movement are of necessity ignorant of lines of authority direct to Christ, based instead, in claims of inspiration through the Holy Spirit in the name of Christ.  We LDS believe that Christ prophesied of such claims from those that would say they did their deeds are in the name of Christ but that he (Christ) never knew them - meaning that he never authorized them through an ordaining by the laying on of hands as he did for his apostles.

We are instructed in our temples that order is brought to this universe through a divine power hierarchy.  That this divine power has it source in G-d the Father and is made available to mankind through Jesus Christ the Son of G-d.  That Jesus Christ is the Word by which our earth and solar system was created and prepared for life as we currently know and experience life.  We LDS also believe that Jesus Christ (Word) has created (ordered and organized) many worlds and solar systems.  We are instructed through modern revelation that such authority (priesthood) is inseparable from the powers of heaven and can only be exercised upon principles of righteousness (meaning by covenant with G-d).   This means that one must be loyal and obedient to divine covenants with G-d that begin with the covenant of Baptism – not any baptism claimed to be in the Name of Christ but that baptism that was divinely authorized as was that of the Prophet, John the Baptist that baptized Jesus in the waters of Jordan.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 4/17/2024 at 6:01 AM, MarkJedidiah said:

Chrome force-updated on my phone while I was trying to type this out so I had to make sure I typed this out.

Before I begin I would like to caveat what I am about to say with a few things to remember.

This is a topic that you must approach with alot of humility and a healthy portion of caution. There is alot of information out in the world that is designed to use this desire and fascination to pervert your faith. Be careful who and what to trust, and let the holy spirit guide you solely along with your understanding of the word.

 

In mathew it says if you have faith but a mustard seed you can command mountains to move, and they will go to the sea. Understand that a mustard seed is extremely small. The poetry is about a small thing growing larger and becoming stronger, as should your faith. But having true faith, even if only a little, qualifies you to do this.

Jesus granted his disciples the authority to do miracles, as an additional source of divine credentials of sorts. This is proof that he authorizes true believers to perform supernatural feats. However there are some rules that seem to come with this gift.

Understand this gift is not meant to be for your selfish benefit, and will outright fail if you try to do it on a case by case basis. If you try to do it you must expect it to work. With conviction, with absolute confidence and expectation that the command will work, you must fully acknowledge to yourself that it is not "you" doing it, you are not the source, but rather the holy spirit flowing through you.

If you get asked how you were able to do it you must always proclaim that it is because of God's authority over all, and that we are given the authority to command the world(things not people) around us to submit in his name. Never ever ever claim it as a power that you create, it is a gift to be used for his glory, never ours.

Things I've done it with, smoke, electricity, something that was broken and needed to work, people engaged in the occult and I believe we're also possessed. It can be practical but it's significantly stronger if it's directly related to testimony and evangelical uses. The commanding of the people were people threatening me/attacking me, and had to faith in God/Jesus in their hearts. The people themselves still had their free will but where unable to continue threatening/attacking me using spiritual forces/demons. It doesn't make you a puppet master I could never force them to give me riches even if I wanted that. But you can use it for protection from ungodly people/posessed/occult practitioners in a physical sense.

I will check back in a few days if anyone has comments or wants to discuss scripture about my interpretation of the word/why I believe the way I do, my specific experiences and instances of doing these things.

All my gifts are blessings from God to be used for his purpose, plan, for me and my life in him, in Jesus name, Amen.

We command the elements by discovering the laws of nature and applying them. Because the physical laws of nature are sustained by God through the light of Christ, we need to be very careful about using them for good or evil. The Lord gave Adam and Eve, and by extension, us (atheists, agnostics and believers alike), dominion and discretion over the stewardship of the natural world.

Exercising faith in Jesus Christ is one way of discovering these laws, perhaps in the most fundamental form but also advancing in the knowledge and details thereof. Faith in Jesus Christ can facilitate our access to mortal knowledge of physical or natural law and offer direct access to spiritual gifts, the power of the Holy Ghost, the companionship of the Holy Ghost, the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the power of the keys of the kingdom which involve organization of various kinds (e.g., gathering, covenanting and sealing on earth and in heaven) as delegated to human beings by Christ. The epitome of organization in this world is found in the temple covenants, with the promises fulfilled in the Church of the Firstborn.

The sealing keys and the power to seal includes command over the elements as displayed by Enoch, Moses, Nephi of Helaman 10 and others. But it also involves other manifestations of God’s power through formally appointed means. For example, spiritual gifts and the power of the Holy Ghost are broadly granted the children of God throughout the world. Formal delegation of priesthood and keys is another matter. And someone can have their calling and election made sure by the Holy Spirit of Promise and yet lack the gift of command over the elements in any of its forms in this life. Likewise, a prophet must possess and exercise  the requisite faith to exercise the sealing keys. Even Nephi (Helaman 10) and Christ (3 Nephi 17) had to pray to the Father to access and use it.