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Baptisms for the dead

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On 5/14/2020 at 11:05 PM, Colirio said:

Brigham Young - “Jesus was the first man that ever went to preach to the spirits in prison, holding the keys of the Gospel of salvation to them. Those keys were delivered to him in the day and hour that he went into the spirit world, and with them he opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison.” (Journal of Discourses 4:285.) 

 

I wander what, and how much, significance we can attach to the word "man" in the above quote. 

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On 5/22/2020 at 1:25 PM, Allison said:

Are the faithful elders also under the same condition (bondage) as the dead to whom they are preaching to
(where their spirits are absent from their bodies) or are they resurrected personages or are they not in bondage
even though their spirits are absent from their bodies?

What an interesting question! How does it look to you when you read D&C 138, specifically looking for the term "bondage" and how it's used?

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2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

What an interesting question! How does it look to you when you read D&C 138, specifically looking for the term "bondage" and how it's used?

I see several mentions of bondage in that section.

"He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered
their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage
(introduction notes)".

"For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies
as a bondag
e".

"I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal
life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and
redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who
are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of
the dead
".

One is a bondage of sin, the other is a bondage of a body being separated from its
spirit.

Therefore my question whether the elders of this dispensation (Joseph Smith, etc)
are in bondage too (body separated from spirit) or whether they are resurrected
beings preaching in the spirit world.

Allison

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5 hours ago, Allison said:

I see several mentions of bondage in that section.

"He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered
their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage
(introduction notes)".

"For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies
as a bondag
e".

"I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal
life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and
redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who
are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of
the dead
".

One is a bondage of sin, the other is a bondage of a body being separated from its
spirit.

Therefore my question whether the elders of this dispensation (Joseph Smith, etc)
are in bondage too (body separated from spirit) or whether they are resurrected
beings preaching in the spirit world.

Allison

I think the general cultural expectation within the Church is that the vast majority of people who lived after Christ’s ministry, won’t be resurrected until right around the time of His second coming.  There are exceptions (Moroni, Peter, and James among them); but I think they are perceived as anomalies.

Joseph Smith’s remains were exhumed and photographed in 1928; so he certainly hadn’t been resurrected as of the time of D&C 138 (1918).

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11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think the general cultural expectation within the Church is that the vast majority of people who lived after Christ’s ministry, won’t be resurrected until right around the time of His second coming.  There are exceptions (Moroni, Peter, and James among them); but I think they are perceived as anomalies.

Joseph Smith’s remains were exhumed and photographed in 1928; so he certainly hadn’t been resurrected as of the time of D&C 138 (1918).

Saying that our interpretation of Resurrection is correct...of course.

(Well...some of us...in that it is the current body we have now that is raised up from whatever composted remains are left.  However, there could also be that if it has the same DNA and the same coherence that we have a resurrected body much in the same way that the atoms and cells of our body is the same body when we are 70s as what we had when we were 1....).

It may be that our understanding in incomplete and that Joseph or others have been resurrected, even if we can still find SOME of their earthly remains still on Earth.

Or it may be that they have yet to be resurrected, for as you say, we still have remains of Joseph (and Hyrum) today.  Then again, in theory, some would say we also have the remains of Joseph from Egypt (not that it is, just some groups CLAIM it is) and others from prior to the Lord's reign who we would have reason to expect have been resurrected...which can make one stroke their chin and ponder...

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I just got a special email from Church Headquarters because I'm the Ward Temple and Family History Leader.  The relevance to this thread is that it coupled missionary work and vicarious ordinance work in one category (Gathering of Israel).

It occurred to me that there wasn't any active proselyting (or at least it was extremely minimal) in Old Testament times.  And Jesus, Himself avoided those who were not of the House of Israel in his preaching and his blessings.  But AFTER the resurrection, he committed the Apostles and ALL Christians to go and "feed my sheep."  He specifically commissioned Paul to preach to the Gentiles.  But they were all to go forth two-by-two and perform missionary work.  Only after the Resurrection.

I believe this is another piece of the puzzle.  Why was no missionary work done on this side of the veil until AFTER the Resurrection?  Why was no missionary work done on the other side of the veil until after the resurrection?  I'm not sure I know the answer.  But it appears that the answers to both these questions have some additional qualities in common that we are not yer aware of -- or at least no one has brought them up.

EDIT: And why was Christ "sent only to the House of Israel" in his mortal ministry, but later opened the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles?  As far as I know, no revelation has been given on this point.  It seems we may never know.

Edited by Carborendum

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