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NeedleinA

Presidential Debate - Tomorrow

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Except, possibly, the hispanic vote. 

A Facebook search for top related FB groups, "Latinos for Biden" vs. "Latinos for Trump".
Latinos for Trump: 64,000
Latinos for Biden: 2,000
Side note: You aren't going to fool the majority of Cuban-Americans to vote for someone pushing a plan that resembles old country socialism, sorry Biden.

A Facebook search for "Blacks for Trump" vs. "Blacks for Biden" produced the following top groups:
Black voices for Trump: 177,000
Black Women for Biden: 1,500

One could argue that either Facebook or my search criteria is lacking, but... I didn't make up the search results, I'm simply sharing them.
The media would lead you to believe that only racist white men vote for Trump.
My 'Latina' wife voted for Trump last time and will do the same again this time.
 

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2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Therefore I think it is safer to assume everyone is entrenching in their position rather then changing position.  Unless of course you can find pretty solid evidence (not just hope or expectation) otherwise.

It's hard to say. I've heard/read a lot of contradicting things about Trump's support among rust belt union workers. A lot of them are still on board, sure. But how many of them betrayed a lifetime of Dem loyalty ONLY because Trump promised to save American industry? And has he? A quick search pulls up several stories like this one, asserting that Trump's tariffs ultimately hurt US manufacturers, forcing several to close. You think those workers are still voting Trump? 

1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:

A Facebook search for top related FB groups, "Latinos for Biden" vs. "Latinos for Trump".
Latinos for Trump: 64,000
Latinos for Biden: 2,000
Side note: You aren't going to fool the majority of Cuban-Americans to vote for someone pushing a plan that resembles old country socialism, sorry Biden.

A Facebook search for "Blacks for Trump" vs. "Blacks for Biden" produced the following top groups:
Black voices for Trump: 177,000
Black Women for Biden: 1,500

One could argue that either Facebook or my search criteria is lacking, but... I didn't make up the search results, I'm simply sharing them.
The media would lead you to believe that only racist white men vote for Trump.
My 'Latina' wife voted for Trump last time and will do the same again this time.
 

These days, I wouldn't trust FB to provide an even demographical snapshot of our voting population. A lot of liberals have abandoned it in recent years due to perceived allowance of Russian election propaganda in the '16 election. Whether intentional or a symptom of algorithms catering to majority demographics, FB is slowly becoming a conservative echo chamber. 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/how-facebook-became-the-social-media-home-of-the-right

Also worth noting, Trump voters are generally more enthusiastic about their candidate than Biden voters. And I think conservative minorities in particular feel a need to actively voice their support in the face of (accurate) perception that most minorities will be voting blue.

 

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9 hours ago, Godless said:

I've heard/read a lot of contradicting things about Trump's support among rust belt union workers.

Trump was right back on the campaign trail last night - up in your state in fact working to target those Minnesotans like rust belt workers.  Trump may be many things but one thing he is not is lazy. He doesn't appear to take anything for granted and is more than willing to work for it.
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Just now, Godless said:

It's hard to say. I've heard/read a lot of contradicting things about Trump's support among rust belt union workers. A lot of them are still on board, sure. But how many of them betrayed a lifetime of Dem loyalty ONLY because Trump promised to save American industry? And has he? A quick search pulls up several stories like this one, asserting that Trump's tariffs ultimately hurt US manufacturers, forcing several to close. You think those workers are still voting Trump? 

These days, I wouldn't trust FB to provide an even demographical snapshot of our voting population. A lot of liberals have abandoned it in recent years due to perceived allowance of Russian election propaganda in the '16 election. Whether intentional or a symptom of algorithms catering to majority demographics, FB is slowly becoming a conservative echo chamber. 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/how-facebook-became-the-social-media-home-of-the-right

Also worth noting, Trump voters are generally more enthusiastic about their candidate than Biden voters. And I think conservative minorities in particular feel a need to actively voice their support in the face of (accurate) perception that most minorities will be voting blue.

 

See this is the kind of self confirmation bias I am trying to avoid.  You say you hear contradicting things but instead of realizing you have no clear facts you focus and quote on the stuff you wish to be true.

Then @NeedleinA gives the results of his brief Facebook post fully acknowledging the flaws inherent in that information gathering process.  Yet you felt the need to attack it anyways, and your attack is illogical.  If there are "Latinos for Trump" and "Blacks for Trump" were would you expect them to hang out and announce themselves? On a Democrat or Liberal leaning site?  We all know that wouldn't work and makes no sense.  One should not expect accurate demographic data from what NeedleinA found.  And he never claimed that was what it provided.  He explicitly claimed that it counters the narrative that only racist white men support Trump, and to that end it is completely solid finding.

 

Edited by estradling75

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So, I've fallen into the TikTok addiction hole and can't get out.  It's just so dang funny and relevant.  Anyway, probably my account's self-customizing filter is at work here, but I'm amazed by how many Blacks4Trump, GLBT4Trump, and Millenials4Trump accounts I'm seeing.   And they're all yelling facts at the top of their lungs (except for the GLBT accounts, they're dancing and singing facts).

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11 hours ago, Godless said:

It's hard to say. I've heard/read a lot of contradicting things about Trump's support among rust belt union workers. A lot of them are still on board, sure. But how many of them betrayed a lifetime of Dem loyalty ONLY because Trump promised to save American industry? And has he? A quick search pulls up several stories like this one, asserting that Trump's tariffs ultimately hurt US manufacturers, forcing several to close. You think those workers are still voting Trump? 

I thought to respond to this part of your post.  I recently retired from manufacturing automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.   The evolution of unions and manufacturing over the last centenary has been dramatic.  Asia has been a hotbed in this evolution and has adapted much better than American industries even though ideas formulated in the USA has driven this evolution.  Two areas are rapidly evolving and advancing.  The first has become known as "lean technology" or "lean production".  The second is technological advancements.

Without going into too much detail - unions in the USA have generally opposed lean technologies and technological advancements.  Even a sophomoric reading of your linked article places the American Steel industry as technologically inferior to global competition.   I would go a step farther in that in general most Americans are not excited about science and technology beyond video games, movies and personal trinkets (cellphones).  Beyond unions - I personally believe that the American Business model is too focused on the immediate "bottom line".

And so I do not believe this particular presidential election is as pivotal as it is being made out to be.  We have been headed in an unstainable direction for a few decades and for the few necessary changes Trump has brought - we have seen the swamp reaction.  Sad as it seems - change; even necessary change is not popular - especially among those that put themselves first (prideful).

 

The Traveler

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On 9/29/2020 at 9:28 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

It was an absolute mess.

On the other hand . . .

One could argue that Trump gave Biden merely a ramped-up version of the treatment Biden gave Paul Ryan in the 2012 VP debate—interrupting, repeating blatant falsehoods, engaging in personal smears, deliberately avoiding substantive policy discussions . . .

Apparently, I’m not the only one who was thinking along these lines.  The GOP tried being decent to Biden.  It didn’t work.

Also:  Ari Fleischer made an interesting point—it sounded unbelievable, but then I went back and watched the (first part of the) debate again and, lo and behold, he was right: The first seven minutes of the debate were pretty conventional and interruption-free.  Then, on Trump’s second or third answer, Biden interrupted him no fewer than three different times.  And that’s when Trump turned on the nasty.

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The concept of a debate is not difficult to understand.  I was on the high school debate team.  

For Trump and Pence - they need to defend their intent for the country and the course we are currently following.  Biden and Harris need to show necessary changes and that they can foster (bring about) the needed changes.

The issues I believe are in play are:

1. How to deal with the Pandemic - what we have learned and what needs to be applied

2. The economy.  What is being done to improve it and what still needs to be done.

3. The racial unrest - and law and order.  Why is there such unrest - why has the efforts of the past not worked and what needs to be done next.

4. Health care.  Why is the cost out of control?  How do we get control of ever increasing costs.  Who is not getting health care and why - and what is the best course moving forward.

5. International relationships.  What is and has been wrong?  What is and has worked.  What is the course of the future.

6. Constitutional rights.  What do we need to keep and what do we need to get rid of?

 

It is not that difficult to address these and other concerns - everyone involved in the debates has a record they need to defend and differences that ought to be pointed out.  All of which can easily be done without description, smoke screens or misrepresentations.  

 

The Traveler

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27 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

mirky gets to work 12 hour shifts tomorrow and Wednesday because of the VP debate.  Tuesday is going to really suck cos I have to work my part time job too.  That means 0600-2030 I will be working.

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On 9/30/2020 at 11:09 PM, Godless said:

It's hard to say. I've heard/read a lot of contradicting things about Trump's support among rust belt union workers. A lot of them are still on board, sure. But how many of them betrayed a lifetime of Dem loyalty ONLY because Trump promised to save American industry? And has he?

FYI: Interesting video from VICE popped up in my feed.

 

On 9/30/2020 at 11:09 PM, Godless said:

And has he?

Video mentions Trump actually trying to open mines in Minnesota but the courts are the ones currently blocking his attempts. 

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I found an interesting speech from Thomas Klingenstein: 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/10/13/claremont_institute_chairman_thomas_klingenstein_trump_2020_a_man_vs_a_movement.html

 

I realize that it is long, but I found it to summarize the beliefs of many Trump supporters, who otherwise would probably not be Trump supporters. 
 

 

THOMAS KLINGENSTEIN: My name is Tom Klingenstein. I am the chair of the board of the Claremont Institute which is a conservative think tank, managing partner of a New York investment firm and playwright.

I wish to make three points. First, Trump is the perfect man for these times, not all times, perhaps not most times, but these times. Second, Republicans are not doing a good job explaining the stakes in this election. They must explain, and this is my third point, that the Democratic Party, which has been taken by its radical wing, is leading a revolution. This makes the coming election the most important one since the election of 1860. Let’s begin there.

Unlike most elections, this one is much more than a contest over particular policies—like health care or taxes. Rather, like the election of 1860, this election is a contest between two competing regimes, or ways of life. Two ways of life that cannot exist peacefully together.

One way of life, I’ll call it “the traditional American way of life,” is based on individual rights, the rule of law, and a shared understanding of the common good. This way of life values hard work, self-reliance, volunteerism, patriotism, and so on.

In this way of life there are no hyphenated Americans. We are all just Americans. Colorblindness is our aspiration.

The other way of life I call multiculturalism. Others call it “identity politics” or “cultural Marxism” or “Intersectionality”.

The multicultural movement, which has taken over the Democratic party, is a revolutionary movement. I do not mean a metaphorical revolution. It is not like a revolution; it is a revolution, an attempt to overthrow the American Founding as President Trump said in his excellent Mt. Rushmore speech. Republicans should say the same thing. Republicans everywhere, at every level, and at every opportunity.

Multiculturalism conceives of society, not as a community of individuals with equal rights but as a collection of cultural identity groups—defined by race, ethnicity, gender, and so forth. According to the multiculturalists, all these identity groups are oppressed by white males.

Their goal is to have each identity group proportionally represented in all institutions of American society. As should be immediately clear, achieving this proportional representation requires a never-ending redistribution of wealth and power from some groups—and not just from whites—to other groups. Such a massive redistribution can only be achieved by a tyrannical government and like in all tyrannies, one where dissenters are silenced.

In order to achieve this proportional representation, the Democrats require not just endless affirmative action but genuine socialism, open borders, unrestricted trade, seizing guns, sanctuary cities, and much more.

The Black Lives Matter/Democrats understand (which Republicans seem not to), that if they are to achieve this policy agenda they must get Americans to change their values, their principles, and the way they understand themselves.


They must get us to believe that national borders and colorblindness are racist; that we are not one culture but many; that the most important thing in our history—the thing around which all else pivots—is slavery. More broadly, the multiculturalists must get us to believe that we are unworthy—not just that we have sinned (which of course we have)—but that we are irredeemably sinful, or, in the language of today, “systemically racist.” And sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic and all the other “ists” and phobias. Simply put, multiculturalism must get us to believe we are bad

This suggests one way to frame the coming election: as a contest between a man, Trump, who believes America is good and a man, Biden, who is controlled by a movement that believes America is bad. I do not think it is any more complicated than that.

For the multiculturalist to change traditional values and principles they must destroy, or radically restructure, the institutions that teach those values and principles. The most important of these institutions is family, but also very important is religion, education (which they have mostly destroyed already) and community life, replacing the latter with government bureaucrats. It is here—in these value-teaching institutions—that we see the underpinnings of the Revolution. This is where the real action is. Republicans seem to be missing in action.

Republicans need to explain that BLM and their Democratic enablers wish to destroy the traditional mother-father family. To substantiate this claim, Republicans have only to point to the BLM mission statement. The mission statement, written by avowed Marxists, also lets us know that BLM holds transgenderism to be the burning issue of our time.

Republicans must also explain that religion, because it teaches American values, is also on the chopping block.

Republicans also must make American see that the taking down of statues is not about removing a few confederate generals; it’s about destroying America’s past, as is the New York Times 1619 Project. The rioters, and their BLM-Democrats enablers, are tearing down the statues even of people like Frederick Douglass who fought against slavery. This is not an accident. It is not collateral damage. Frederick Douglass was a great American. He believed that America in her soul was not racist. He believed in hard work and self-reliance. And because of his embrace of American values the BLM-Democrats have to get rid of him.

They must also get rid of Abraham Lincoln, for it is he who best explains what we should aspire to. And it is he who is the best defender of the American Founding. In one sense, this election is a referendum on the Founding. Whether America was founded in 1619, as the BLM-Democrats contend, or, in 1776 as Lincoln, and, until recently, all Americans believed.

Republicans must make more of political correctness and cancel culture, which, as we have seen so vividly of late, brutally punishes apostates.

Who does Twitter think it is, censoring an American president? Republicans simply cannot stand for that.

And Republicans must explain, as I earlier explained, that the multiculturalists are trying to get us to believe that we are systemically racist so that we will surrender to their policy agenda. This too must not be allowed to stand. The American people need to hear what they know in their hearts: they are not racists. Republicans should stand up and say, “no, America is not racist.” Period.

If Americans are systemically anything, it is a systemic commitment to freedom and equal rights for all.

Perhaps most importantly, Republicans must say over and over that America is “incredible,” to use President Trump’s adjective of choice. They must remind the American people that, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, America has brought more freedom and more prosperity to more people than any country in the history of mankind. Most Americans know this, but this too they need to hear from their leaders.

In order to make the case that the Democrats are leading a revolution, Republicans must delegitimize Black Lives Matter—the organization, of course, not the sentiment. To BLM and their Democratic enablers, Republicans must say: “Absolutely, black lives matter. They just don’t matter to you. You don’t care about Mr. Floyd, the black businesses you have destroyed, the blacks who are getting killed because you have forced the police to back off. You’re here for destruction. Not black lives, not any lives.”

After delegitimizing Black Lives Matter, the next step for Republicans is to tie BLM’s revolutionary agenda around the necks of Democrats.

The BLM wing of the Democratic party has captured the entire party. Run-of-the-mill Democrats may not agree with all of the BLM agenda but they go-along, so they might as well agree. Joe Biden is one of the go-along Democrats.

So do not expect all Democrats to sing the BLM tune; even so, most will kneel before them.

Listen to Biden. On one occasion Biden said, “Let’s be clear, transgender equality is the civil rights issue of our time.” A year ago, Biden may not have even known what transgenderism is. He does not seem to know it, but he has been radicalized.

Biden now regularly talks about “systemic” racism. On one occasion Biden said, though without evidence, there is “absolutely systemic racism in law enforcement.” “[But] it’s not just in law enforcement,” he continued, “it’s across the board. It’s in housing, it’s in education . . . It’s in everything we do.”

He is wrong on every count, but if indeed he believes that racism is in “everything we do,” that it is systemic, then he believes, whether he admits or not, that the system must be overturned. Biden does not realize it, but he is calling for the overthrow of the American way of life. I presume that is not his intent, but when the words he is reading off his BLM teleprompter get translated into policy, that will be the consequence — the destruction of the American way of life.

Biden demurs. There is nothing to fear from Biden says Biden: “Do I look like a radical socialist with a soft spot for rioters?” No, he does not, but what he does look like is a sap.

Republicans must make it clear that these are the “Biden riots.”

This brings me to my last point: Trump. I know President Trump has many faults. I myself sometimes cringe listening to him. Sometimes he is his own worst enemy. He is a braggart, often misinformed, petty, sometimes even vengeful. And more.

And yet, we are very lucky to have him. I am almost prepared to say that having him is Providential. How else to explain that we find ourselves with this most unusual, most unpresidential man who has just the attributes most needed for this moment. At any other time, he might well have been a bad president. But in these times—these revolutionary times—he is the best president we could have had.

He has the indispensable attribute of a leader: courage. As a leader must, he goes where others are afraid to go. And he has common sense, which means he generally wants to go to the right place.

Above all else, and above anyone else, Trump is committed to America. He is unreservedly, unquestionably pro-America. He feels no guilt for America’s past. He makes no apologies. He concedes nothing. These may not always be the attributes one wants in a President, but in this day of woke guilt they are the most essential things. And Trump has unlimited confidence in America. In this time of national doubt, this too is just what the doctor ordered. He thinks our culture is “incredible” and that’s the way he wants to keep it.

Trump not only thinks America is incredible, he knows we are in a fight for our lives.

And despite what one hears ad nauseum from the Democrats, Trump is perhaps among the least racist presidents we have ever had. Trump is not defending the white way of life; he is defending the American way of life, a colorblind way of life which is open to anyone who is willing to embrace it.

If we want to save our country, then we should support him—unequivocally. I am. I think this election is that important, and I think Trump is that good. I hope you agree.

Remember, Trump versus Biden is the choice between a man who believes America is good and a man who is controlled by a movement which believes America is bad.

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ON political stuff, though I was not sure where to put this...I'm feeling many of the polls are really off. 

Several of them say that Georgia is at the tipping point and is leaning towards Biden and the Democrats.

Not in a BLUE MOON...I'm going to say.

If they are saying Georgia is going Democrat...I instantly suspect that Poll is inaccurate.  I could be wrong...but Georgia going Democrat???

Only in a Blue Moon (and, to be clear, Blue moons are not as RARE as it actually sounds like they are, they actually occur more often, it's just several years between them sometimes).

With so many of them claiming this, I've only seen one that thus far hasn't said Georgia is going Democrat...and thus the only one I trust at this point that may be somewhat accurate.  That poll doesn't say that Trump will win, but he actually shows that he has a shot at winning (not by popular vote, but by electoral vote).

Which means, he could lose easily, but it's not set in stone.  When polls are saying Georgia is going to vote by Biden as much as they are...my instincts cut in and I REALLY have my doubts (if it does go to Biden though, I guess I'll have been wrong...but I just don't see Georgia voting that way despite all that's happened).

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16 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 He never said he wanted fracking banned, but he wants to transition out of the oil industry?

E-v-e-n my teenagers called him out on lying about fracking last night. 
Joe demanded the proof, Trump provided it.

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