Divided Country

[Traveler]

In the Book of Mormon, we are warned that Satan is able to take control of hearts and divide people to bring about bloodshed and destroy an entire civilization.  Are we dividing up as liberals and conservatives and being led towards sufficient mistrust and hatred enough to ignite a civil war triggered by an election in the not-too-distant future?

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Are we dividing up as liberals and conservatives and being led towards sufficient mistrust and hatred enough to ignite a civil war triggered by an election in the not-too-distant future?

Not if I can help it.  I go out of my way to interact with and buddy up with folks on the other sides of my fences.

I remember in 2016 when the news of Trump winning the election was breaking.  I was in a liberal/progressive facebook group, reading all the tears and screaming.  People were reporting shortness of breath and high heart rates.  People were afraid that jack-booted thugs were soon to enter their apartment buildings to deport their grandma or take away their rights to be gay.  (I am not making these up - I was legitimately reading these posts, and people were being serious.)  I told them that I was a right wing conservative, and they could all come hide out at my house if the thugs showed up.  I was just a random anonymous poster, but it seemed to calm them a little that someone from the other side of things didn't want them dead.  

These days I routinely hang out with progressives, alphabet acronym people, diversity allies, etc, at work.  We read books together and talk about issues together.  We've put effort into diffusing hatred and gaining trust (or at least a reasonable understanding).   

If you feel sufficiently grounded in your morals and whatnot, you might consider it.  I've been hanging with these woke folk for 2 years now, and I'm still me.  Still active believing LDS, still a constitutional conservative, still a heterosexual, still a male.

If, however, you are not firm in your beliefs, you should figure out what you believe and why first.  Because if you go into such a situation moldable, you'll be molded.

[mikbone]

38 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In the Book of Mormon, we are warned that Satan is able to take control of hearts and divide people to bring about bloodshed and destroy an entire civilization.  Are we dividing up as liberals and conservatives and being led towards sufficient mistrust and hatred enough to ignite a civil war triggered by an election in the not-too-distant future?

 

The Traveler

Nah. 

[LDSGator]

30 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Not if I can help it.  I go out of my way to interact with and buddy up with folks on the other sides of my fences.

 

I do too. In fact, one of my best friends and I make a bet every year about baseball teams. If his Yankees win more games, I have to pay 20$ to the DNC. If my team wins more games, he has to shell out 20$ to the Ayn Rand Institute. 
 

But let’s be honest @NeuroTypical. People like the three of us (you, me, my friend) are extremely rare. That doesn’t make us special or morally better then others. It just makes us…well, rare. 
 

Edited August 8, 2023 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

I’ve noticed that people who drop friendships over political/religious differences also drop them with those they agree with too. They’ll get into a spat over something trivial and never talk again. So it’s more due to their personality than values, which makes sense. After all, if you’ll drop friend Z who disagrees with you on 50% of the issues it makes it easier to drop friend D who disagrees with you 35% of the time.
 

And why stop there? We can agree on 99% of the issues but if it’s a really passionate issue that we disagree on (abortion, gun control, gay rights) I’ll stop talking to you too. 

[mirkwood]

The Book of Mormon is a foreshadowing of events that are coming.  Literally.  Modern prophets and apostles have told us what is coming.  So yeah, @Traveler you are correct in thinking that violence is on the horizon, but I prefer @NeuroTypical's outlook.  I just happen to know better and in the meantime try and get along with everyone.

[NeuroTypical]

From a certain perspective, “love thy Neighbor” and “know thy enemy“ involves a startlingly large amount of the same activities and behaviors.

i’ve had an anarchist buddy since high school. It’s been apparent for a lot of years that if push ever comes to shove, we will end up on different sides shooting at each other. But we’re still civil on Facebook, and we speak respectfully and discuss important topics, and what not.

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

These days I routinely hang out with progressives, alphabet acronym people, diversity allies, etc, at work.

Pretty soon I'm not going to have much choice in the matter.  Even in the engineering profession, even in Texas, I'm about to start with another company in about a month which is clearly a woke company(based on the behaviors of the interviewers). 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Carborendum

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I see two direct scriptural correlations to our day. 

Helaman 1-2 and Ether 14-15

 

[mirkwood]

We could throw in Ether 8-11 as well.

[LDSGator]

@NeuroTypical-I’ve been thinking about this off and on all day. Don’t you think most people only want to live in echo chambers? I do. 
 

From my observation most people would rather have superficial friendships with people who totally agree with them rather than a deeper one with someone who might challenge them. 
 

Of course if it makes someone happy, then go for it. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by LDSGator

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

15 hours ago, mirkwood said:

We could throw in Ether 8-11 as well.

The entire book is filled with warnings that apply to us now. We really need to read and study the Book of Mormon more. We are going to need it. I had a mission companion that was reading and memorizing the book when I was with him. He was up to Alma by then. I wish I could do that.

[NeuroTypical]

11 hours ago, LDSGator said:

@NeuroTypical-I’ve been thinking about this off and on all day. Don’t you think most people only want to live in echo chambers? 

I think fear and ignorance and hatred are far too present, in far too much of humanity.   We're built to be social creatures that band together for safety and protection.  From shortly after birth, an infant knows "there's me and mom, and there's everyone else".  People inside our circles are safe, people outside our circles are potential dangers.   So yes, most people mature into their set of beliefs, and find it desirable to live in homes and neighborhoods and jobs and churches and towns full of "my people".  When someone who is one of "those people" appear, they're regarded with suspicion as a potential threat.

Some things I've learned as a mature human:  
- A tiny fraction of humans are deadly predators, willing to hurt you for what you have.  They exist in just about every decent sized group of humans, including inside my safe trusted circles.
- Almost every human being has something you could call the Light of Christ, or a conscience, depending on your world view.  We all want more of the good things, and less of the bad.  How we go about identifying the good and bad, how we think achieving more good and less bad, vary so drastically, we'll fight wars and kill each other over the various ideas.  
- If I am mature in my beliefs, I lose nothing by "expanding my circle" to include people different than me.  I think Jesus wants us to do this, since He was so big on "Love thy neighbor" - even making it the 2nd great commandment, upon which hangs everything else.  And Paul's discourse on charity makes it pretty clear - it doesn't matter how cool or great or correct I think I am, if I don't have that love towards my neighbor, I basically suck in the eyes of God.  
- I'm quite grateful to be able to go to church or the temple, and spend time and effort working towards a common goal with people who value what I value.  Echo chambers are incredibly valuable.  It's just living in one and never leaving it, makes you ignorant.  And ignorance makes you fearful and occasionally hateful.

From a purely practical standpoint, if @Traveler's question is going to pan out, it's nice to have your fingers on the pulse of your enemies.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

12 hours ago, LDSGator said:

@NeuroTypical-I’ve been thinking about this off and on all day. Don’t you think most people only want to live in echo chambers? I do. 
 

From my observation most people would rather have superficial friendships with people who totally agree with them rather than a deeper one with someone who might challenge them. 
 

Of course if it makes someone happy, then go for it. 

My neighbor is a non member, but he is the most generous person I know. I am glad he is my friend. We need to see everyone as our brothers and sisters and stop siloing our lives.

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think fear and ignorance and hatred are far too present, in far too much of humanity.   We're built to be social creatures that band together for safety and protection.  From shortly after birth, an infant knows "there's me and mom, and there's everyone else".  People inside our circles are safe, people outside our circles are potential dangers.   So yes, most people mature into their set of beliefs, and find it desirable to live in homes and neighborhoods and jobs and churches and towns full of "my people".  When someone who is one of "those people" appear, they're regarded with suspicion as a potential threat.

 

Very fascinating. I’m a little more harsh. I think the reason we largely avoid people we disagree with is based in fear and insecurity. Is that true for everyone? Absolutely not, but it’s true for many people. 
 

 

11 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

My neighbor is a non member, but he is the most generous person I know. I am glad he is my friend. We need to see everyone as our brothers and sisters and stop siloing our lives.

I had a bishop who said “Loving everyone in your ward is hard. Loving our neighbors is easy!” 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

49 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Very fascinating. I’m a little more harsh. I think the reason we largely avoid people we disagree with is based in fear and insecurity. Is that true for everyone? Absolutely not, but it’s true for many people. 
 

 

I had a bishop who said “Loving everyone in your ward is hard. Loving our neighbors is easy!” 

Everyone is our neighbor.

[LDSGator]

23 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Everyone is our neighbor.

I totally agree with you, but this is one of those sayings where the people who need this advice the most will ignore it. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Some random church-y advice I got years ago, that really helped me:   Whenever I am sorely beset by someone ticking me off or being evil or harming the world or whatever, I should try to envision them at the temple, wearing all white, helping me get through the veil.   Sometimes coming up with this mental picture seems like an impossible task, but it's usually worth the effort.  It helps me remember that we are all God's children, and He loves us all, and I should too.  

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Just now, NeuroTypical said:

Some random church-y advice I got years ago, that really helped me:   Whenever I am sorely beset by someone ticking me off or being evil or harming the world or whatever, I should try to envision them at the temple, wearing all white, helping me get through the veil.   Sometimes coming up with this mental picture seems like an impossible task, but it's usually worth the effort.  It helps me remember that we are all God's children, and He loves us all, and I should too.  

 

That is good advice.

[Traveler]

Life as a mortal is indeed interesting.  Growing up I thought my family was normal.  I have learned as an adult that my family was anything but normal.  Not only was I raised in a family that is classified as “high achievers” – so were my many cousins (over 100 first cousins).  Somewhere (I do not know how many generations ago) it became a family tradition to invest.  It is written in journals as well as common teachings from my grandparents, parents and aunts and uncles.  The primary principle for investing was due-diligence research.  The single most taught study was to never consider what an investment was currently doing.  Rather, it was taught that long term trends were the proper first consideration.

I have learned that friends and especially one’s marriage partner is more important than investments and a most important consideration remains an individual’s trend.  Not so much where they started or what talents they have - as it is – how long and with what determination do they develop their talents. It is the trends in our society that concern me.  It is the trend towards violence that is my greatest concern.

In my youth, first responders (government officials in general) were highly respected.  Of course, we would joke to one another but if ever addressing a policeman – no one I knew would speak disrespectfully.  I thought that deliberately killing a policeman was automatic death penalty.  Even in the movies, the police were the heroes or in the westerns the good guys were the sheriff, or the marshal and they wore a white hat.  

As a youth, every boy I knew carried a pocketknife.  We played games with the knives.  In high school we would often bring guns to school to go hunting after school.  We could make money shooting rabbits.  There were fights at school, I was small and always beaten up – so I learned to avoid fights.  But there was never a knife or gun fight – ever.  No one ever even threatened to use a knife or gun, even to avoid a fight.  Such a stupid action would label forever a kid as worse than a chicken or sissy.   It was more honorable to get beat up.

If anyone had a problem with a teacher, it would be worse for them when they got home.  A misbehaving kid in school was a bad reflection on parents.  A parent could lose their employment if their child was a problem at school – especially if they threatened a teacher.

I keep thinking that violent trends could not get worse, but it sure seems that it is.  It does not seem to matter what a person does – especially if they are in the public eye – they will get violent threats.  If someone does not like something; the expected thing to do is to threaten and if you are serious (what we use to call, man enough) you resort to violence.  It seems a weekly occurrence for a policeman to be killed.  Even in the movies police are seldom respected and are seriously hurt or even killed by the “good guys” even when the police are properly trying to do their job.

My biggest concern is that average citizens will begin to think that it is up to them (not the police) to protect themselves, kith and kin.  It is my impression that most individuals that own firearms – do so for their own protection.  Many thinking that they need protection from their government.  I do not like where things are going.

One last thought – I read an article about a wealthy architect in New York that saw the world headed towards war II and he wanted to avoid it for himself and his family.  So, he sold off his business and everything else and purchased a small island – planning to avoid the rest of the world and the craziness of war.  As it turns out, he purchased a small island that was part of the Midway Islands.  He and his family ended up spending the war in a Japanese POW camp.  He lost his wife and two of his kids.  Sometimes we think we can avoid bad things and end up only making things worse.  My plan is to stay loyal to my covenants – to G-d and my fellowman.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

have learned that friends and especially one’s marriage partner is more important than investments and a most important consideration remains an individual’s trend

That, and I’m unsure how someone can enjoy life without close friends. I’m sure you can-we’re all different. But I don’t understand how. 

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That, and I’m unsure how someone can enjoy life without close friends. I’m sure you can-we’re all different. But I don’t understand how. 

I am thinking that I did not word it as good as it should have been worded.  The most important investments that we can make in life are human investments.  Humans are the offspring of G-d (that above all other investments has the best trends).  The next best investment is similar.  Some invest in their pets – which is not a bad investment, but the returns are better (and longer lasting) investing in those humans trending towards sainthood.

The one thing I would change in your quote is “close friends” to “trusted friends”.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

he one thing I would change in your quote is “close friends” to “trusted friends”.

Totally legit. Well said. 

[prisonchaplain]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:38 AM, LDSGator said:

If my team wins more games, he has to shell out 20$ to the Ayn Rand Institute. 
 

Yikes. To be honest, I went through an AY stage--even read Atlas Shrugged. Alas, I came to realize that she was a militant atheist and simply mirrored the Communists that I (and she) despised. From the AY Institute: 

• Follow reason, not whims or faith.

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

Yikes. To be honest, I went through an AY stage--even read Atlas Shrugged. Alas, I came to realize that she was a militant atheist and simply mirrored the Communists that I (and she) despised. From the AY Institute: 

• Follow reason, not whims or faith.

All true, and the real reason I choose them is because he’s a hardcore socialist who despises Ayn Rand much more than you do. So the medicine for him is very, very bitter. 
 

He’s been one of my best friends since 1999. So we’re all good.