Divided Country

[LDSGator]

@prisonchaplain-imagine if you had to write a check to NARAL. It’s the same thing he feels. 

[prisonchaplain]

I get it @LDSGator. I wish both political sides would do the opposite--Liberals to Conservatives: We'll have Biden step down if you have Trump step down. Conservatives: OK.

Now you see why I look to Jesus, rather than politics, for my miracles. 😁

[Vort]

Just now, prisonchaplain said:

I get it @LDSGator. I wish both political sides would do the opposite--Liberals to Conservatives: We'll have Biden step down if you have Trump step down. Conservatives: OK.

I would take that deal in a minute. The problem is, if you get past Trump, you have some Republicans that might actually do pretty well in office. (And to be fair, Trump did a spectacular job on Supreme Court nominees and a very passable job on the economy, though he refused to do anything about stanching the debt hemorrhage.) If you get past Biden, I cannot think of a single high-standing Democrat who would do any better than Joe. Some would actually (probably) do worse.

[prisonchaplain]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

I would take that deal in a minute. The problem is, if you get past Trump, you have some Republicans that might actually do pretty well in office. (And to be fair, Trump did a spectacular job on Supreme Court nominees and a very passable job on the economy, though he refused to do anything about stanching the debt hemorrhage.) If you get past Biden, I cannot think of a single high-standing Democrat who would do any better than Joe. Some would actually (probably) do worse.

Joe Manchin came to my mind. This is from Five Thirty Eight, concerning the six wings of the Democratic Party:

 

Conservative Democrats

• Skeptical of liberal views on both economic and cultural issues; often supportive of abortion limits; generally from conservative-leaning areas.
• Prominent examples: Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin.

(The site admits that this is by far the smallest wing, but notes it is one of the most important)

[LDSGator]

16 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I get it @LDSGator. I wish both political sides would do the opposite--Liberals to Conservatives: We'll have Biden step down if you have Trump step down. Conservatives: OK.

Now you see why I look to Jesus, rather than politics, for my miracles. 😁

Understand totally bro. 

[laronius]

My biggest concern for our country concerns election integrity and transparency. This past election there were a significant number of republicans concerned about perceived irregularities in the election. Some of the issues were addressed but many on the left just blew them off as conspiracy theories. 

I think the knowledge that even if "my guy" is not in office we'll get another chance in a few years pacifies the masses in general. But if it ever gets to the point when many people, left or right, begin to believe that the system is rigged, that hope for the next election goes out the window and many will feel they have no other recourse but violence. 

We can't afford to just blow off claims of election fraud. Even if the claims are not founded in reality, steps must be taken to reassure the masses that their voice still counts. 

In the Book of Mormon it wasn't wickedness in general that brought the collapse of the government. Most everyone at that point was pretty much wicked. What brought it down was the struggle for power and the forced removal (via death) of a fairly elected leader.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm torn between the idea that all elections have a small percentage of irregularities (which becomes problematic in close races) and the reality that some candidates are just sore losers. Sadly, the latter are being empowered not to give up too soon, when reality and dignity suggest that they have already waited far too long. 

[mikbone]

My biggest concern is that in the recent past we have chosen horrible men to represent our country’s choice for President.

Donald Trump is a total clown and Joe Biden is a life long politician with dementia.

The way we pick candidates is a travesty.  Whoever has the best zingers during a televised debate does not qualify a person to be the leader of this great country.

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

Even if the claims are not founded in reality, steps must be taken to reassure the masses that their voice still counts. 

How? Democrats can talk about election integrity until they're blue in the face and not one Republican will believe them. That's fair and understandable, but we've reached a point where Republicans who refute election fraud claims are castigated and labeled as RINOs. 2.5 years after January 6th, we still have people on the far right who are convinced that Trump was right, Pence is a traitor, and Biden's victory was illegitimate, all without a single shred of credible evidence. Meanwhile, Trump raked in $250 Million in donations AFTER the 2020 election, ostensibly to fight the election result. One of the many investigations that he's currently the target of is working to determine what he used that money for. In Arizona, Kari Lake raised $2.5M+ for her legal fight after losing her election for governor*. Losing elections is a lucrative business, it seems.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/16/1105279623/jan-6-committee-trump-campaign-legal-defense-fund

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaign/arizona-lake-trump-finchem-fundraising-loss

*That number is as of January of this year. As of that time, she had spent less than 10% of that on legal fees, though she's probably spent more in the past couple months as she's been the target of a defamation lawsuit filed by an AZ election official. I imagine she's probably raised additional money since January as well, but I couldn't find any solid confirmation.

[laronius]

36 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

How? Democrats can talk about election integrity until they're blue in the face and not one Republican will believe them. That's fair and understandable, but we've reached a point where Republicans who refute election fraud claims are castigated and labeled as RINOs. 2.5 years after January 6th, we still have people on the far right who are convinced that Trump was right, Pence is a traitor, and Biden's victory was illegitimate, all without a single shred of credible evidence. Meanwhile, Trump raked in $250 Million in donations AFTER the 2020 election, ostensibly to fight the election result. One of the many investigations that he's currently the target of is working to determine what he used that money for. In Arizona, Kari Lake raised $2.5M+ for her legal fight after losing her election for governor*. Losing elections is a lucrative business, it seems.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/16/1105279623/jan-6-committee-trump-campaign-legal-defense-fund

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaign/arizona-lake-trump-finchem-fundraising-loss

*That number is as of January of this year. As of that time, she had spent less than 10% of that on legal fees, though she's probably spent more in the past couple months as she's been the target of a defamation lawsuit filed by an AZ election official. I imagine she's probably raised additional money since January as well, but I couldn't find any solid confirmation.

I get your frustrations and truth be told I don't think we will in reality see any real solutions. That's the sad reality. My post was mainly in response to what I think could trigger societal violence on a large scale and to me this is as good a probability as anything. 

[laronius]

41 minutes ago, mikbone said:

My biggest concern is that in the recent past we have chosen horrible men to represent our country’s choice for President.

Donald Trump is a total clown and Joe Biden is a life long politician with dementia.

The way we pick candidates is a travesty.  Whoever has the best zingers during a televised debate does not qualify a person to be the leader of this great country.

The other day I watched a recreation of the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan on YouTube. Even after being shot heading to the operating room that guy was a class act. What happened to those kind of politicians?

[laronius]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm torn between the idea that all elections have a small percentage of irregularities (which becomes problematic in close races) and the reality that some candidates are just sore losers. Sadly, the latter are being empowered not to give up too soon, when reality and dignity suggest that they have already waited far too long. 

I'm torn between the idea that there is major corruption in our elections and that the general public are really just that stupid. Some days I believe it's both.

Edited August 13, 2023 by laronius

[LDSGator]

14 minutes ago, laronius said:

general public are really just that stupid.

Thinking everyone else is stupid is almost always a sign of low intelligence or an incredibly warped ego. 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

How? Democrats can talk about election integrity until they're blue in the face and not one Republican will believe them. That's fair and understandable, but we've reached a point where Republicans who refute election fraud claims are castigated and labeled as RINOs. 2.5 years after January 6th, we still have people on the far right who are convinced that Trump was right, Pence is a traitor, and Biden's victory was illegitimate, all without a single shred of credible evidence. Meanwhile, Trump raked in $250 Million in donations AFTER the 2020 election, ostensibly to fight the election result. One of the many investigations that he's currently the target of is working to determine what he used that money for. In Arizona, Kari Lake raised $2.5M+ for her legal fight after losing her election for governor*. Losing elections is a lucrative business, it seems.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/16/1105279623/jan-6-committee-trump-campaign-legal-defense-fund

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaign/arizona-lake-trump-finchem-fundraising-loss

*That number is as of January of this year. As of that time, she had spent less than 10% of that on legal fees, though she's probably spent more in the past couple months as she's been the target of a defamation lawsuit filed by an AZ election official. I imagine she's probably raised additional money since January as well, but I couldn't find any solid confirmation.

When I finished college, I went to work for the Defense Department as a civilian (coming up on 50 years ago).  I am convinced if the citizens of the USA knew what their elected officials were doing back then that January 6th would have been much more serious and decades sooner.   It is my opinion that things have gotten exponentially worse in both parties.  I do not believe party would make a difference (republicans disappointed with their elected republicans and democrats disappointed with their elected republicans) – that there would be such an uproar that citizens would rise and lynch the lot of all of them.

Please understand that I do not support violence, nor do I recommend revolution.   Never-the-less, there are a lot of bad guys that have infiltrated the halls of government and the leadership of both parties.  Perhaps I should not be so negative – we get to think we were allowed to pick our poison.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

9 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Thinking everyone else is stupid is almost always a sign of low intelligence or an incredibly warped ego. 

I'm one of those rare exceptions you leave room for. 😃

[mikbone]

18 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Thinking everyone else is stupid is almost always a sign of low intelligence or an incredibly warped ego. 

Matthew 13: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, laronius said:

I'm one of those rare exceptions you leave room for. 😃

Lol. Thanks for not taking it personal bro. 

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

Republicans who refute election fraud claims are castigated and labeled as RINOs

Exactly. You can be pro life, pro gun, anti tax, pro death penalty*-but how dare you not bow to divine master Trump. 

*ask Liz Cheney. Who was pro life…pro gun…anti tax…

[Vort]

54 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Thinking everyone else is stupid is almost always a sign of low intelligence or an incredibly warped ego. 

Or else that everyone else is stupid.

[LDSGator]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

Or else that everyone else is stupid.

 

53 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Matthew 13: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart

This reminds me of the famous discussion in Clerks. One store clerk is talking to the other about how he feels superior to their customers. The other responds, “If you are so advanced, what are you doing working here?” 
 

 

 

[Still_Small_Voice]

4 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

How? Democrats can talk about election integrity until they're blue in the face and not one Republican will believe them. That's fair and understandable, but we've reached a point where Republicans who refute election fraud claims are castigated and labeled as Republicans in name only.  2.5 years after January 6th, we still have people on the far right who are convinced that Trump was right, Pence is a traitor, and Biden's victory was illegitimate, all without a single shred of credible evidence.

You have not looked closely enough at the 2020 elections then.  Election laws in many States were changed illegally.  Vote by mail looks like it is here to stay sadly, and it makes it a lot easier to do voter fraud when you do vote by mail and have weeks or months to pull it off.

I would have far more confidence in our elections if they only did vote in person, showing valid identification, only allowing two days of voting.  Absentee ballots should only be allowed by the military or people soliciting for an absentee ballot with a valid reason.

Edit:  No same day voter registration either.  People should be registered to vote at least 21 days before an election.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Still_Small_Voice

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

..  Democrats can talk about election integrity until they're blue in the face and not one Republican will believe them. That's fair and understandable, but we've reached a point where Republicans who refute election fraud claims are castigated and labeled as RINOs. .......

My father was a stanch and powerful member of the Republican party in Utah – though he never ran for office, he was instrumental in raising campaign funds.  Growing up I was being groomed to run for public office (thinking such is a service to my society and state).  When I returned from the military and my church mission, I was asked to co-chair the campaign of a close family friend that was running for county commissioner.   I sat with this individual to explore why he was running.  At first the answers were the obvious for the media answers.  After deep discussion it was disclosed that every year a lot of money was made from rezoning property, and he wanted to insure certain properties (his friends and family) were rezoned.  Promises were made to me concerning some of my father’s properties.   As a side note here, this individual was a popular Republican and active member of the Church of important standing.

I declined participating in the campaign.   I received some criticism because for the most part this was a “honest” individual – though I understood he would respect “the law” – money was an influence.  I remained active in the Republican partly thinking this particular individual was a bit of an exception.  When the election took place – obviously in Utah the Republican county commissioner won but I was troubled with obvious election fraud taking place.  I could not understand why someone that was ahead would perpetrate fraud?  

I was instructed by Republican party leaders that besides winning an election – that the gap in winning was important to establish a mandate.  In other words, a means to quiet opposition (both within and without the party).  I began my own miny campaign to let the world know that the Republican party in Utah was doing to exercise “unrighteous dominion”.  Local news papers refused to publish my letters and the national Party leaders (and elected representors) in essence black balled me and my efforts.  I resigned my membership in the Republican party and became a Democrat.   I discovered that the Democrat party is more corrupt than the Republican party – so for the last 40+ years I am without a political party that I can support.

With rare exception the only election fraud exposed is when one party exposes the other.  Almost never will those monitoring elections report their own party.  Often, there is an agreement between the parties observing the polls to overlook much of the obvious fraud – to avoid a tit for tat and a uproar causing another election and legal problem for those overseeing the polls.  

It is my opinion that the biggest political problem in the USA is not really one party or the other, but that one party always and only blames the other.  No party ever attempts to clean their own house.  The only efforts are to keep the loved party’s corruption and think only the other party need to be de-corrupted.

I am waiting for someone to run – claiming their party needs to be reformed.  The only presidential candidate I see making any reference to this is Robert Kennidy Jr.   Not I indorse him – just that he is the only one I have encountered in 50 years saying they want to reform their own party.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

You have not looked closely enough at the 2020 elections then.  Election laws in many States were changed illegally.  Vote by mail looks like it is here to stay sadly, and it makes it a lot easier to do voter fraud when you do vote by mail and have weeks or months to pull it off.

I would have far more confidence in our elections if they only did vote in person, showing valid identification, only allowing two days of voting.  Absentee ballots should only be allowed by the military or people soliciting for an absentee ballot with a valid reason.

Edit:  No same day voter registration either.  People should be registered to vote at least 21 days before an election.

My opinion:

The problems you think you see are only a tip of an iceberg.

Voters should be required to register for ever election in which they vote.  This would solve a problem for ballots being cast for dead people and people that have moved.  Voting should be considered a right and a responsibility – not a privilege.

I have long believed that fulfillment of a 2 year military obligation should be a requirement for voting.  Felons should be dismissed from voting until completing a review from a board of party members and a majority of both parties on the board.   Any voter breaking a voting law is dismissed from voting or participating in assisting voting for 10 years.  Homeless individual cannot vote – only residents. No campaign funds can be collected from non-voting entities (no PAC or party monies).  And no support for any candidate can be published without that candidate’s approval.   Heavy fines and jail time for attempts to influence an election outside of election laws (this includes media and internet companies and influencers – in other words if you are not registered to vote in California – you cannot say anything about California elections until that election is over).

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

26 minutes ago, Traveler said:

have long believed that fulfillment of a 2 year military obligation should be a requirement for voting

Why?

26 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Homeless individual cannot vote – only residents.

Oh?

[Phoenix_person]

15 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

only allowing two days of voting. 

Why?

15 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Absentee ballots should only be allowed by the military or people soliciting for an absentee ballot with a valid reason.

Why?

15 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Edit:  No same day voter registration either.  People should be registered to vote at least 21 days before an election.

Why? These all seem like pretty arbitrary policies that would make it harder for people to vote, but not necessarily prevent the kind of fraud you claim is happening.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

My father was a stanch and powerful member of the Republican party in Utah – though he never ran for office, he was instrumental in raising campaign funds.  Growing up I was being groomed to run for public office (thinking such is a service to my society and state).  When I returned from the military and my church mission, I was asked to co-chair the campaign of a close family friend that was running for county commissioner.   I sat with this individual to explore why he was running.  At first the answers were the obvious for the media answers.  After deep discussion it was disclosed that every year a lot of money was made from rezoning property, and he wanted to insure certain properties (his friends and family) were rezoned.  Promises were made to me concerning some of my father’s properties.   As a side note here, this individual was a popular Republican and active member of the Church of important standing.

I declined participating in the campaign.   I received some criticism because for the most part this was a “honest” individual – though I understood he would respect “the law” – money was an influence.  I remained active in the Republican partly thinking this particular individual was a bit of an exception.  When the election took place – obviously in Utah the Republican county commissioner won but I was troubled with obvious election fraud taking place.  I could not understand why someone that was ahead would perpetrate fraud?  

I was instructed by Republican party leaders that besides winning an election – that the gap in winning was important to establish a mandate.  In other words, a means to quiet opposition (both within and without the party).  I began my own miny campaign to let the world know that the Republican party in Utah was doing to exercise “unrighteous dominion”.  Local news papers refused to publish my letters and the national Party leaders (and elected representors) in essence black balled me and my efforts.  I resigned my membership in the Republican party and became a Democrat.   I discovered that the Democrat party is more corrupt than the Republican party – so for the last 40+ years I am without a political party that I can support.

This is just a theory, and I don't really have much to back it up except for my own recent and limited experience politics, but perhaps lopsided political districts are easier to corrupt than close ones. If one party is pretty much guaranteed victory in every election, then what incentive is there to play by the rules? I'm not saying that everything is 100% copacetic in more competitive areas (more on that in a moment), but closer elections tend to be watched more closely by both parties. 

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

It is my opinion that the biggest political problem in the USA is not really one party or the other, but that one party always and only blames the other.  No party ever attempts to clean their own house.  The only efforts are to keep the loved party’s corruption and think only the other party need to be de-corrupted.

We've seen instances of problematic Democrats (all in solid blue seats, notably, see my above observation) being thrown to the wolves by their own party (Rod Blagojevich, Anthony Weiner, Al Franken, Andrew Cuomo). Off the top of my head, the only example of an established GOP politician being held accountable by their own party is a local one that barely got any national coverage. Jennifer Carnahan, the former Minnesota GOP chairwoman, was compelled to resign after one of her top donors, Anton Lazzaro, was arrested for child sex trafficking (he was convicted and last week was given a sentence of 21 years in prison). There were other issues looming over her (she apparently treated her staff horribly), but Lazzaro effectively ended her political career in a state where the GOP is very vulnerable.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have long believed that fulfillment of a 2 year military obligation should be a requirement for voting.

Why? And what about people who are physically unable to serve in the military?

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Homeless individual cannot vote – only residents.

Why does ownership of property matter? Last I checked, this was the 21st Century, not the 18th. Like S_S_V, you seem to have some arbitrary ideas of who should be able to vote and how.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Phoenix_person