Book of Mormon Reading Group: 23 Oct - 29 Oct 2023 (Alma 1 - Alma 12)

[pam]

7 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Your analysis is flawed...

A Culture's value of women will determine will determine how often they are mentioned in the historical record... And frankly most cultures have not had that high of a value of women.  That is is just something we have to acknowledge as simply being sucky.

The first flaw I see is comparing a 4000 plus year record to a 1000ish year record...  Just from the number of years covered you would expect that the bible would have 4 times as many (assuming the cultural value is largely the same)   So while 37 verse 8 seems large and important once we divide by 4 for the time span   37/4 = 9.25 vs 8 seems like a reasonable margin of error.

Another flaw is that Nephites cultural began in 600ish BC.  To be fair we would need to start the Biblical record count at 600ish BC or give the Book of Mormon all the counts prior to 600ish BC because that is a  culture that the Nephites and the Jew shared and could draw on but that Mormon would skip in making a record.

So while a raw numbers count can be fun to play with... but to make some kind of valid point you need a lot more rigor in your analyses

 

 

I hope you noticed that he used the tongue out emoji.  What he said was pretty much tongue in cheek.

[pam]

9 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Something's just struck me about the Book of Mormon. Almost no female characters. The Bible has Eve, Esther, Deborah, Ruth, Jael, Hannah, Jezabel to name but a few. As far as I recall, the only woman mentioned by name so far is Sariah. Why do you think this is?

(OK Mary is mentioned somewhere, but it is the same Mary as in the Bible.)

(I'm still racking my brains here. Plenty of mentions of "wives" and "daughters", but none that you would really call characters in the story. None that talk to snakes or hammer tent pegs into people's heads. Well, apart from Sariah. Not that she ever hammered a tent peg into anyone's head, but you know what I mean.)

Only 6 women in the Book of Mormon are actually mentioned by name: 

Sariah

Isabel

Abish

Eve

Sarah

Mary 

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, pam said:

Sariah

She is the wife of Lehi and mother of Nephi, correct?

[pam]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

She is the wife of Lehi and mother of Nephi, correct?

Yes  

[Jamie123]

6 hours ago, pam said:

Yes  

Quote

From Nameberry: Sariah: Girl's name of Hebrew origin. Variation of Sarah "princess". The perfect compromise name for when you say Sarah, and your spouse says Mariah. Spelled Saria, it is a character in the video game The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

 

[estradling75]

12 hours ago, pam said:

I hope you noticed that he used the tongue out emoji.  What he said was pretty much tongue in cheek.

I know @Jamie123 likes to have fun, and that is a good thing.  But this is a public forum and there are more then a few out there that would take this subject seriously and they need a serious response.

And the reality is women did not get to much representation in the historical records unless they had a profound impact on how things went down.  Scriptures are not immune to this reality.   The best we can do is acknowledge that it happened, and try to do better when given the chance.

 

 

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And the reality is women did not get to much representation in the historical records unless they had a profound impact on how things went down.

I've been deliberately avoiding this topic because I'm sure if I said everything I think it would be misunderstood, dismissed, and create an uproar all at the same time, but I will say two things:

1. These records were kept by men who were primarily concerned with covering what were, at the time, the affairs of men.  (This isn't a value judgement either way, it's just what it is.)

2. I assert that the women who lived at the time these events were going on had a more profound impact on how things went down than anyone else - at least, the mothers among them.  Don't believe me?  Ask Helaman's "sons".  A mother is a force of nature who alters generations of history.  That we have nearly no record of the details of the wifing and mothering these women did is unfortunate, but I need no record to know that they were at least as heroic in their spheres as the men were in theirs.  (And yes, as the records show, some of them were a terrible force for evil.)

[Carborendum]

18 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I believe you're right. And wasn't there a Suzannah too?

Well, I wouldn't cry about it.

[zil2]

Alma 3

I suppose there are lots of things we could say in regards to symbolically "marking" oneself and about the importance of the groups with whom you choose to associate.  And yet, we have missions to the Lamanites and we today are called to share the gospel in all the world, so there's associating and then there's associating...  It seems to me the important lesson here, though, is simply to be a humble follower of Jesus Christ - then you don't need to rebel or "distinguish" yourself from others (surely a sign of pride), or find someone else to follow...

Alma 4

v1-3: War is a terrible thing.

v3: Don't wait for a "war" to "awaken" you - repent continually.

v4: (Hopefully upstream from where they dumped all the bodies...  Just sayin'.)

v6: Seriously wishy-washy people.  Perhaps their extreme "mood swings" is why they were the perfect source from which to teach modern man who, thanks to the "smart phone" has a 2 nanosecond attention span.  Knowing that living the gospel brings abundance, prepare your heart so that abundance doesn't lead you to pride and sin.  (Or check your heart and remove pride and sin that have come from your abundance - before the Lord lets that sin remove the abundance and crush your pride.)  Don't buy your clothing on Rodeo Drive.

v8: Sometimes I think this phenomenon is like: "OK, I'm doing the gospel checklist, and I still have some spare time, so I'm going to pursue some pleasant thing", which then starts to eat into the time previously spent on the gospel checklist, which then leads to sin and abandoning the gospel.  Don't let the gospel be a checklist - in all things, if it's not changing who you are and strengthening your relationship with Christ, find a way to change it, a different way to do it, a different perspective or thought pattern.  Don't focus on the task, focus on changing your heart through the task.

v8: "began to persecute those that did not believe" - I suspect I've always read that as "people who weren't members of the Church" - but it's obvious now that it's saying "people who didn't agree with them".  And we see this at times, regardless of the membership of the parties involved.

v10: We are meant to be the leaven - when the church goes bad, the whole world gets worse!

v15: "...nevertheless the Spirit of the Lord did not fail him."  Remember this - the Spirit of the Lord will not fail you.  Rely on the Lord, trust him, stay true to him. (See v13 & 14.)

v19-20: Jesus Christ is the answer.  Got problems? Teach the word of God.

 

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, I wouldn't cry about it.

Ever get that banjo removed?

[estradling75]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

I've been deliberately avoiding this topic because I'm sure if I said everything I think it would be misunderstood, dismissed, and create an uproar all at the same time, but I will say two things:

1. These records were kept by men who were primarily concerned with covering what were, at the time, the affairs of men.  (This isn't a value judgement either way, it's just what it is.)

2. I assert that the women who lived at the time these events were going on had a more profound impact on how things went down than anyone else - at least, the mothers among them.  Don't believe me?  Ask Helaman's "sons".  A mother is a force of nature who alters generations of history.  That we have nearly no record of the details of the wifing and mothering these women did is unfortunate, but I need no record to know that they were at least as heroic in their spheres as the men were in theirs.  (And yes, as the records show, some of them were a terrible force for evil.)

I hear you.  And I agree...  I should have been more precise in my statement   It should more clearly read

historical records unless they had a profound impact on how things went down in the eyes of the person writing the record.

In our day and age calling someone racist or sexist is pretty much the same as calling them evil.  While a case might be for us and our peers, it fails hard the farther back in time we go.

If we want to ego stroke us now on how much more enlighten we are now on such subjects... then we should look back with compassion to those doing the best they can with lesser light they had.  Not condemning them for not holding to a standard they did not even have.

[zil2]

18 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

historical records unless they had a profound impact on how things went down in the eyes of the person writing the record.

First, I understood what you meant, so it's all good.  I would say that it's less "in the eyes" and more related to "on what did individuals have a profound impact" or "in what was the individual directly involved".  I would hope that Mormon thought his wife had a profound impact, but since she wasn't directly involved in the politics, wars, or prophecies, he didn't mention her.  Similarly, any woman who may have been mentioned in the records he was abridging was only included in his abridgement if her portion of the story related the points of doctrine Mormon was trying to teach us (not very likely given the roles of women in those days).

Now, when it comes to generic history (as opposed to the Book of Mormon), then I'm fully willing to believe there were men both involved and writing the story who never gave women or their influence a single thought (though some might have - I'm sure it would depend on the man).  But I would hope that the men of God have understood from childhood the eternal importance and influence of their wives and mothers.

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

how much more enlighten we are now

Yeah, I think this assumes facts not in evidence.   (And I'm going to shut up now.)

[askandanswer]

It sounds as if the decision to go from a monarchy to a system of judges did not have as much popular support as was suggested by Mosiah 29.

Amlici seeks to be king and is rejected by the voice of the people

 

The Lamanites on their own outnumber the Nephite/Mulekites, but even when the Lamanites are strengthened by the addition of the Amlicites, they are still unable to defeat the Nephites. That's the difference having God on your side makes.

The Lamanites and Amlicites join forces and are defeated

 

Perhaps Amlici used his religious beliefs to establish his base of political support.

he being after the order of the man that slew Gideon by the sword,

 

This suggests a close alignment between political and religious philosophies. Those whose religious beliefs were aligned with Nehor wanted a monarchy and the members of the church favoured a system of judges.

3 Now this was alarming to the people of the church,

 

So perhaps ultimate law-making power still rested with the people and maybe the judges only existed to execute and enforce the law that was made by the people.

I wander if this means that to become a judge you had to be voted into office? But there are some occasions when the position was given by a retiring judge to a person chosen by the retiring judge.

 according to their law that such things must be established by the voice of the people.

 

It would be fascinating to know what the numbers were. Judging by the vigour with which the matter was debated by the people, it looks like Amlici had a fair chance to present his proposal and have it examined and considered by the people.

7 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came against Amlici, that he was not made king over the people.

 

The numbers in the election must have been pretty tight if Amlici thought he had the numbers to make a successful war against the Nephites.

10 Now when Amlici was made king over them he commanded them that they should take up arms against their brethren; 

 

There is no mention of spears here, and now that I think of it, I can't remember any references to spears in the Book of Mormon although now that I think about it Teancum killed a Lamanite king with a javelin to the heart. 

These are all offensive weapons. There is no mention of any defensive measures being taken.

12 Therefore the people of the Nephites were aware of the intent of the Amlicites, and therefore they did prepare to meet them; yea, they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows, and with stones, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons of war, of every kind.

 

This suggests that there was an existing store of weapons, that they didn't have to stop to make new weapons, they just grabbed what they already had. It might be a sign of an unhealthy society, or a society with problems, when people felt the need to be so close to their weapons. 

14 And it came to pass that Amlici did arm his men with all manner of weapons of war of every kind; 

 

Its hard to see how Alma was different from a king. He was the religious, political and military leader of the Nephites.

Alma, being the chief judge and the governor of the people of Nephi, 

 

So in a time of warfare they left the most vulnerable behind with no one to protect them.

25 and except we make haste they obtain possession of our city, and our fathers, and our wives, and our children be slain.

 

I think that in such dire circumstances, I would have been inclined to leave my tent behind. Not only would it have taken time to pack up their tents, carrying their tents and other stuff would have slowed down their rate of travel.

Alma 2:26

 the people of Nephi took their tents,

 

Later in Alma, or maybe its in Helaman, there was a time when the same thing happened but in reverse - as the enemy was crossing the Sidon the Nephites rose up from their hiding places and commenced a slaughter.

And behold, as they were crossing the river Sidon, the Lamanites and the Amlicites, being as numerous almost, as it were, as the sands of the sea, came upon them to destroy them.

This is the problem with causes that depend so much on one man - you kill the man and the cause often dies.

Alma 2:31

Now when Alma had said these words he contended again with Amlici; and he was strengthened, insomuch that he slew Amlici with the sword.

 

On other occasions, a surrender has been arranged, followed by a peaceful disarmament of the enemy, but it looks like that didn't happen in this case.

Alma 2:36

And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This suggests that there was an existing store of weapons, that they didn't have to stop to make new weapons, they just grabbed what they already had. It might be a sign of an unhealthy society, or a society with problems, when people felt the need to be so close to their weapons. 

Are you forgetting that the Lamanites are all the time attacking the Nephites?  It would have been foolish not to have weapons and other things ready for use at the drop of a hat.

[Just_A_Guy]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:31 AM, Jamie123 said:

Only 3 of those 8 you can put a name to - that's 37.5%.

My list has 37 women, 29 of whom I can name. That's 78.38%. 😝

Although . . . And I don’t remember where I read this, but it was within the last 2 years . . . I believe that there’s a fairly consequential (I won’t say “prevalent”) theory that many Biblical names, particularly of OT characters, were developed for the sake of the story years or even centuries after the events being related and reflected thematic elements from the stories themselves.  In other words:  we have a name for the first woman (“Eve”); but we don’t necessarily have her name (the name Adam would have actually known her by).

If this is true, it presents an interesting insight:  both the BoM and the OT come from intensely patriarchal cultures that didn’t really emphasize preserving the memory/names of females; but in the Old Testament’s case the later editors/scribes were willing to invent new names for the sake of wordplay and a more “literary” narrative; whereas Mormon, as editor, was unwilling to do so (perhaps he didn’t see the point, since he presumed his readers would have no way of understanding/appreciating any Reformed Egyptian puns he might try to make).

Edited October 25, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

Alma 5

v6: Remembering these and similar things is not to give the Lord bragging rights, but to help us remember him and trust him.

v7, 12: Change of heart is the point - obeying is good, but if it doesn't change your heart, it won't help (much?).

v9: "and their souls did expand".  Here's a long quote from Hugh Nibley (Approaching Zion, Chapter 3 "Zeal Without Knowledge") about expansion that I love (emphasis mine):

Quote

Aristotle pointed out long ago that a shortage of knowledge is an intolerable state, and so the mind will do anything to escape it; in particular, it will invent knowledge if it has to. Experimenters have found that lack of information quickly breeds insecurity in a situation where any information is regarded as better than none. In that atmosphere, false information flourishes; and subjects in tests are "eager to listen to and believe any sort of preposterous nonsense." Why so? We repeat, because the very nature of man requires him to use his mind to capacity: "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses," says Joseph Smith, "is co-equal with God himself." What greater crime than the minimizing of such capacity? The Prophet continues, "All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. . . . God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge." Expansion is the theme, and we cannot expand the boundaries unless we first reach those boundaries, which means exerting ourselves to the absolute limit.

Brutal, but obviously true.

v10-11: The words of God should give us hope.  If not, time to ponder and figure out why not.

v13: You must be humble and trusting in order for God to change your heart.  Thereafter, be faithful to the end, or your heart will change in a bad way.

v14: Multiple ways to describe "conversion" (IMO).

v15+: What converted people do.

v17+: Sometimes negative motivation helps one to recognize the need to change.

v19: I sometimes wonder what Alma had in mind when he talking about "... having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?"  I can come up with ideas, but I wonder whether they match his.  Our faces express our mood, emotions, thinking, attitude, etc.  Over time, they change to display things like time in the sun and wind, or continual anxiety or sadness, or happiness and ease of conscience.  Some people describe having seen a "glow" or "light" in others' faces.  So what does your face look like when the image of God is engraven there?  Happy, humble, gracious, kind, welcoming, forgiving, gentle...

v21: Christ is the only way.

v22-24: Alma knows well the answers to his own questions. (v45+)

v26: Conversion, testimony, repentance are not "one and done" sorts of things.  They must be continually maintained (nurtured, as Alma will teach later).

v27+: How to live the gospel.  Also, repent already!

v33-34: Gentle, merciful, welcoming, generous.  (This is the Lord you want, not the one described next.)

v36+: What not to do.

v38: Christ is the only way.

v46: Only through the Holy Ghost can we know the things of God, and sometimes it requires a lot of repentance, fasting, and prayer before we are able to receive what he wants to teach us.

v49+: Repent already!

v53+: More things not to do.

v57+: More things to do.

v60: Hearken to the voice of the good shepherd.

Edited October 26, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

Alma 6

v1-4: I don't know how other churches do it, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is big on records, not just of who the leaders are, but of the members - one of the reasons our wards are geographic and folks don't just attend wherever / whenever they choose.  I find that the Book of Mormon has the strongest scriptural support for this practice of basically keeping track of the members.  I wish all members understood why that's so important.

v6: We should remember to pray for those who don't know God.  This doesn't seem like a common thing happening in public prayers in the Church, but perhaps it should be.

v8: Our teaching should always include Jesus Christ.

Alma 7

v5: Don't make people wade through sorrow to help you find joy in Christ; if you have to wade through sorrow to help someone else find joy in Christ, it's worth it.

v6+: Given Gideon's character, it's not surprising the people of the city named for him are in a better state than those in the capital city.  When you're in a better state, you get to hear hopeful and encouraging sermons (with some reminders to avoid sin and continue to repent), as opposed to the "hellfire and damnation" sermons that are sometimes necessary when folk have gone astray.

v8: Alma, perhaps more than any prophet in scripture, is very careful to be clear about what he does and does not know, and we can see at least one occasion where he later learned something he previously didn't know.

v8: "...but this much I do know, that the Lord God hath power to do all things which are according to his word."  This is a good thing to know, and a good reason to study his word and align your behavior accordingly.

v11+: We have every reason to trust and turn to Christ, the one person certain to understand.

v14: "mighty to save" - I always liked that phrase.  It's a good thing to remember.

v15: "come and fear not" - no need to fear Christ.

v19: "making his path(s) straight" - I hope one day to learn whatever cultural thing makes this idiom make sense.  I've got a good enough idea what it means, but the literal meaning doesn't make logical sense to me.  v20: Would have to say pretty much the same thing about "one eternal round".

v23: I don't remember exactly when it was that the idea of "easy to be entreated" finally sank through my thick skull, but ever since it did, I have tried hard to change my behavior accordingly.  @Jamie123, in the Church, it's common for there to be sign up sheets sent around for any number of things (bringing food to someone recovering from surgery, feeding the missionaries, signing up to work a shift at one of the Church's various welfare facilities, etc.).  It's also common for the people responsible for such things to call up and ask someone to help.  Anyone who's been in charge of the sign ups or assignments knows that it's often hard to get enough people to sign up / accept the assignment, and there are some people you come to dread asking because of the way they respond.  I hope I was never the latter, but there's no doubt I was not always "easy to be entreated".  I've worked hard to change that - even if I don't want to do whatever is asked, I try to make it easy for the person doing the asking and never let them know whatever negative, whiny, selfish reaction I have to the request.

v23-24: A good set of virtues to pursue.

Edited October 26, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

v6: We should remember to pray for those who don't know God.  This doesn't seem like a common thing happening in public prayers in the Church, but perhaps it should be.

I can remember a time when the Intercessions (public prayers, traditionally said by the priest  but nowadays more often by a regular person) typically ended "...and so rejoicing in the fellowship of [whatever saint the church is named after] and all your saints, we commend ourselves and all Christian people to your unfailing love". When its my turn I never say "Christian". It seems to me that if someone is not a Christian, they need Our prayers more, not less.

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

v8: Our teaching should always include Jesus Christ.

Too right. I once got dragged along to the Kingston Spiritualist Church, and do you know how many times Jesus was mentioned in the service? Big fat zero! (I already had a rant about that in another thread so I'll shut up about it here.)

Reading Alma 7, I couldn't help thinking of a Pauline epistle - one where Paul is pleased with the people he is writing to. Maybe Ephesians. Some very beautiful language in this part.

[zil2]

Alma 8

v1: Rest is OK.  (Sometimes we beat ourselves up over taking time to relax.)

v3: But don't be lazy.

v11-12: This really sounds to me like the equivalent of the snotty teenager saying, "You're not the boss of me."

v15: "Blessed are thou, Alma..." Whether or not we're blessed does not depend on the choices of other people.  Being rejected does not mean you failed.  The Lord measures in different ways than we do.  And that's a good reason to "rejoice".    Also, imagine how Alma felt to learn / recognize that it was the same angel who had first called him to repentance.

v16: We are given adequate warning.  We have only ourselves to blame when we don't heed the Lord.

v17: I wonder how often God has prevented our destruction (by destroying the would-be destroyers) and we never recognized it for what it was.

Of course, I have to believe God was thinking of Amulek and Zeezrom and all the others who would believe, and sent Alma back for them, too.

v18: Speedily obey the Lord.

v20: Amulek's "I am a Nephite" response makes me think that the city of Ammonihah must have been populated by a mixture of -ites and perhaps the Nephites were in the minority... (Though chapter 9 suggests otherwise.)

v31: Sometimes, the Lord allows bad things to happen so that you and / or others can recognize God's hand in delivering you.

Alma 9

We change from third to first person here, suggesting that Mormon just copied what Alma had written.

v1-7: Sometimes, you have to be brave.  Don't get distracted by the heckling - you don't have to answer that, just deliver the word of God.

v8+: The importance of remembering (just shown in reverse).  Also, all the "do ye not remember"s suggests that it was common for folks to be taught their history.

v19-23: The greater the knowledge and witness you have received, the worse it is to sin against that.  So don't do it, or, repent.

v25: "sent his angel to visit many of his people" - I wonder what this will look like whenever we finally get the record.  It doesn't seem like Lehi had any formal standing, just that he was called to go and prophesy (back in his day).  I wonder if this "scattered" approach wasn't because it was necessary to reach all the people in a timely manner.  In our day, and even in Joseph Smith's day, we have the ability to communicate widely much more quickly than ever before - between the printing press and electronic communication, we're like lightning compared to scribes copying messages and runners carrying them to be read...  PS: Repent!

v26+: We are taught that the Book of Mormon was written for our day, and if I'm being honest, I always saw that as a combination of teachings we need to learn, and examples of the bad stuff that will happen before the Second Coming.  But I read this verse and think, it's also showing the hopeful anticipation of the righteous for his coming.  Of late, I find myself not just looking forward to when the world (aka the wicked) will end, but also to the Lord's coming - actually hoping to still be alive for it.

Edited October 28, 2023 by zil2

[JohnsonJones]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:46 AM, zil2 said:

I've been deliberately avoiding this topic because I'm sure if I said everything I think it would be misunderstood, dismissed, and create an uproar all at the same time, but I will say two things:

1. These records were kept by men who were primarily concerned with covering what were, at the time, the affairs of men.  (This isn't a value judgement either way, it's just what it is.)

2. I assert that the women who lived at the time these events were going on had a more profound impact on how things went down than anyone else - at least, the mothers among them.  Don't believe me?  Ask Helaman's "sons".  A mother is a force of nature who alters generations of history.  That we have nearly no record of the details of the wifing and mothering these women did is unfortunate, but I need no record to know that they were at least as heroic in their spheres as the men were in theirs.  (And yes, as the records show, some of them were a terrible force for evil.)

 

So, since they are mentioned, does that raise the number of women mentioned in the Book of Mormon to +2000?

[JohnsonJones]

On Alma 9 -

We see in the preceding chapter that Amulek could have his heart changed to help Alma.  It shows how the Lord knows our hearts and can help choose us to do the work he wishes to be done.  So, here, Amulek has joined Alma in teaching the word to the Ammonihah.  The verses of 14 - 24 speaks dire warnings to them about their wickedness after knowing the Lord and his gospel.

I wonder in our day, as we see more and more of our youth fall away from the gospel (and not just us, Christianity in general is having great difficulties with it's youth falling away from Christian belief) if the Lord will visit us with wrath and destruction much as he did the Nephites (and also in Israel to the Jews when it happened with them). 

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

Of late, I find myself not just looking forward to when the world (aka the wicked) will end, but also to the Lord's coming - actually hoping to still be alive for it.

I always think (1) isn't it a bit presumptuous of me to assume automatically that I'd be one of the righteous? And (2), even if I am amongst the righteous, would there not be plenty of people I care about amongst the unrighteous? Would I even want to be "...safe on Zion's Hill, singing praises...etc." when "...thy judgements spread destruction" upon people I care about?

Which leads me to another matter: if I love someone whom God doesn't love, does that make me more loving than God? It's a question I endlessly puzzle over.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Jamie123
Spelling

[JohnsonJones]

3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I always think (1) isn't it a bit presumptuous of me to assume automatically that if it did happen, I'd be one of the righteous? And (2), even if I am amongst the righteous, would there not be plenty of people I care about amongst the unrighteous? Would I even want to be "...safe on Zion's Hill, singing praises...etc." when "...thy judgements spread distruction" upon people I care about?

Which leads me to another matter: if I love someone whom God doesn't love, does that make me more loving than God? It's a question I endlessly puzzle over.

I think at my age, it's not going to matter much if I survive or die.  It's all pretty quickly over anyways.

However, that brings up another thought I've had often enough.  It doesn't really matter if one lives to the second coming or not.  If they die, they personally have their second coming at that point...and the decisions to be righteous or wicked come to bear at that point rather than having to wait X number of years for the Savior to return to rule this world in glory.

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

If they die, they personally have their second coming at that point...

As a young man I went for a while to a church where they were always saying things like: "I believe we are living in the Latter Days! I believe that with all my heart, which is why it is so important...etc."

I always wanted to get up and say: "I don't believe we are living in the Latter Days, and I don't think it matters two hoots anyway." I never quite had the nerve to say it though.

[zil2]

59 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I always think (1) isn't it a bit presumptuous of me to assume automatically that I'd be one of the righteous? ...

Well, good point, but on the other hand, I think the Lord goes to extremes to make it clear how to be one of those people and wants us to have the assurance that we're "on his good side", so to speak.

59 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

... And (2), even if I am amongst the righteous, would there not be plenty of people I care about amongst the unrighteous? Would I even want to be "...safe on Zion's Hill, singing praises...etc." when "...thy judgements spread distruction" upon people I care about?

My understanding (yes, LDS) of these events suggests that those who will be destroyed are those of a telestial glory or less (aka perdition).  These are the truly wicked - those who love their wickedness.  I won't enjoy seeing or hearing about the destruction of anyone really, but a world without the most wicked (murderers, child traffickers, and such) would be welcome.

59 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Which leads me to another matter: if I love someone whom God doesn't love, does that make me more loving than God? It's a question I endlessly puzzle over.

Destruction may not seem like love, but I'm betting it's the most loving thing that could happen to someone - that God never destroys someone before it's the best thing for them - so they can stop heaping coals on their own heads, so to speak.

In the Pearl of Great Price we have an extension of Enoch's story compared to what's in the Old Testament:

Quote

23 And after that Zion was taken up into heaven, Enoch beheld, and lo, all the nations of the earth were before him;

24 And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man; and behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.

25 And he saw angels descending out of heaven; and he heard a loud voice saying: Wo, wo be unto the inhabitants of the earth.

26 And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.

27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

While there are scriptures that talk about God "hating", this one seems pretty clear to me - God loves even the wicked, and weeps at their loss, that they won't "choose [him], their Father".

Edited October 27, 2023 by zil2