The Church & Israel

[prisonchaplain]

Most Evangelical Christians have a special love for Israel. Many of us believe that God has special plans for the nation (and the Jews) in the last days. Many also believe that a large number of Jews will convert to Christianity. Of course, 2/3rds of the Bible is made up of the Hebrew scriptures. So, while the government of Israel may receive criticism, we are mostly pro-Israel, pray for Jerusalem's peace, and I suspect most in my camp are siding with Israel in the current conflict. 

Of course, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has its own end times teachings and likely has a somewhat different understanding of the role of Israel and the Jews. Despite starting with "Of course," I'm not sure what those differences are. So, please share. 

[JohnsonJones]

I don't speak for anyone but myself.  I don't represent the Church nor it's teachings in what I'm about to write.

I believe that the Children of the Lord were the children of Israel.  They are the covenant people.  That did not change.  It has never changed.

We can ALSO be part of the covenant people, but the Jews, by birthright are ALWAYs the covenant people. 

The old false myths that they stopped being the chosen people of the Lord because they crucified him is never said in the scriptures.  It is never stated.  It is a myth.

They are STILL the chosen people of the Lord, though their actions may not reflect how he would have them act (as is shown repeatedly in the Bible).

You can't go bad supporting his chosen people.  We should do well to remember who his Children are.  WE CAN be (and hopfully ARE) his children and in so with our covenants, have been saved with his grace into salvation.

The Jews may not have that heavenly promise as they have not yet accepted him, but they are still his children while in this mortal state and as such are still the Children of the Lord. 

Those who stand against the Lord will ultimately perish.  Though the Jews may be defeated at times, may even be enslaved, eventually they shall be triumphant and all those who stand with them shall be as well. 

 

Edit PS:  And just to be clear, this is NOT necessarily anything to do with what Our Church's stance is or what it's teaching is, this is my OWN feelings on the matter.

Edited May 2 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

Good topic @prisonchaplain!  Some times, I'm tempted to think of my church as "the only Christians who pay attention to the old testament".  It's encouraging to hear Christians talk about Israel and last days from a position of having studied the OT.

 

We number ourselves among the children of Abraham, inheritors through blood or adoption of the blessings of the covenant.  We're also big on the Gathering of Israel talked about in Jeremiah, and figure we're instrumental in that.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-15-the-lords-covenant-people?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-42-the-gathering-of-the-house-of-israel?lang=eng

 

We look for signs of the second coming, and note them as they arrive.   Wickedness, war, turmoil?  Check.  Restoration of the Gospel? Check.  Coming forth of the BoM? Check.  Gospel preached to the entire world? Mostly checked, in my lifetime.  Coming of Elijah from Malachai 4? Check - April 1836.  

Just two to go: Lehi's descendants becoming a great people, and the building of New Jerusalem in Missouri.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-43-signs-of-the-second-coming?lang=eng

 

 

[prisonchaplain]

9 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

The old false myths that they stopped being the chosen people of the Lord because they crucified him is never said in the scriptures.  It is never stated.  It is a myth.

They are STILL the chosen people of the Lord, though their actions may not reflect how he would have them act (as is shown repeatedly in the Bible).

 

The old false myth is not much of an issue in the LDS community, but for the broader Christian movement it has a name: Replacement Theology. It's the belief that Israel failed in its covenants with God, so he replaced Israel with the church. My guess is that the historic churches are more susceptible to embracing it. Supposedly Martin Luther was quite antisemitic. 

[prisonchaplain]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

We number ourselves among the children of Abraham, inheritors through blood or adoption of the blessings of the covenant.  We're also big on the Gathering of Israel talked about in Jeremiah, and figure we're instrumental in that.

 

To dial down on this a bit, do you see yourself as part of the OT covenant? I ask because most of us who believe God is still working with his people--the Jews--see ourselves, perhaps as grafted into Israel--but more as loosely included. In other words, God has some special dealings with Israel. Many Jews will also convert to a saving knowledge of Yeshua (Jesus). However, we see ourselves as directly under Jesus' protection. So, we ID with the Jews but see ourselves as distinct. 

[NeuroTypical]

43 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

To dial down on this a bit, do you see yourself as part of the OT covenant? I ask because most of us who believe God is still working with his people--the Jews--see ourselves, perhaps as grafted into Israel--but more as loosely included. In other words, God has some special dealings with Israel. 

Yes, absolutely - to the point were each of us individually know which of the 12 tribes of Israel is the tribe from which the blessings flow.  For like the first 100 years of the restoration, we'd often refer to the world's population as gentiles, and we did not number ourselves among them.  (Our beliefs on the matter haven't changed, but I've noticed it's rare to hear us use the term when talking about people.)  

We think about the modern holy land, and how 3 of the world's major religions all lay claim to it.  But we Mormons also kicked off certain things in 1835:

Quote

When Hyde and others had been set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve in 1835, Joseph Smith informed them that only they had the authority to unlock the doors of the nations for the gathering of Israel.
[...]
[In 1841] Hyde exited the city, crossed the Kidron Valley, and ascended the Mount of Olives. There he offered a prayer dedicating Jerusalem specifically “for the gathering together of Judah’s scattered remnants” and also more broadly as a land of promise for all the scattered children of Abraham. After the prayer, he fashioned a stone altar to commemorate the occasion.
[...]
Between 1873 and 1933, several other dedicatory prayers for the Holy Land were offered by later Apostles. In the 1970s and 1980s, the Church established a presence in the area around Jerusalem by creating a Church district, establishing the Brigham Young University Jerusalem Center, and dedicating the Orson Hyde Memorial Garden on the Mount of Olives.

 

In my ward, we're fortunate to have a Jewish convert, and he's taught our Sunday School Old Testament every 4 years for as long as I can remember.  "Jewish" is a set of religious beliefs as well as a group of ethnicities and cultural identification and ancestry.  Dude is LDS, but still remains Jewish.  Last month he organized our ward's celebration of passover.  "Christ in the Passover".  A traditional passover feast.  Families and kiddos dressed up in old testament-ey attire made out of bedsheets and whatnot.  It's a cool thing.

Edited May 2 by NeuroTypical

[prisonchaplain]

The closest you'll find in the Christian community are Messianic Jews and groups like Jews for Jesus. I worked with an Orthodox rabbi and a Lubavitch (ultra-orthodox) one when I was a chaplain in Miami. It is fascinating. As FYI, I'll sometimes tell people that I am the Gentile moderator at ThirdHour.org forums. 😉

[mikbone]

My family celebrated the Passover with a great Seder this year.  

The last supper was a Seder.

I find it very beneficial to remember  what happened to Israel.  And to compare modern covenants with the ancient covenants.

Also 

Article of faith #10

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

I also love bagels, Challah, and Brisket.

Edited May 3 by mikbone

[LDSGator]

16 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

closest you'll find in the Christian community are Messianic Jews and groups like Jews for Jesus.

Have you ever asked a practicing Jewish person what they think about “Messianic Jews” or “Jews for Jesus”? I have. It’s not flattering.
 

To many serious Jews a “Jew for Jesus” is as illogical as a round square or an African American man joining the KKK. 

Edited May 3 by LDSGator

[Vort]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Have you ever asked a practicing Jewish person what they think about “Messianic Jews” or “Jews for Jesus”? I have. It’s not flattering.
 

To many serious Jews a “Jew for Jesus” is as illogical as a round square or an African American man joining the KKK. 

I have not asked anyone, but I'm not at all surprised to hear this. One of the great mysteries of life is how so many Jews, probably the most intelligent people on the planet (and not by a little bit*), can hold such stupid opinions about certain issues. The old "Mormons turning dead Jews into Mormons" through baptism for the dead is one outstanding example. This, it appears, is another.

The blindingly obvious problem here is that "Jew" denotes not only a religion, not only a race, not only a culture, but all of the above (and probably more). "Jews for Jesus" is no more oxymoronic than "atheist Jews", which in my experience is the majority of American Jews. If a Jew can believe in no God at all and still remain a Jew, why should a Jew not be able to believe in Jesus as the Christ and still remain a Jew?

*I have read that Ashkenazi Jews have a mean IQ score that is 15 points above the mean of the population at large. (Here is an MIT paper that supports the idea.) (Here is another one, from a source I know nothing about, but that claims that in certain important areas, Jews score more like 25 IQ points above the general mean. 25 points! That is nearly unbelievable. One breathless passage: "Ashkenazin skills in verbal reasoning, comprehension, working memory, and mathematics are simply astounding—the group averages 125 on an IQ test of verbal reasoning. Since 1950, 29 percent of Nobel Prizes have been awarded to Ashkenazi Jews, who represent a mere 0.25 percent of the global population.")

Fifteen points is enormous, a full standard deviation above the general norm. That means your average, run-of-the-mill Ashkenazi Jew is one of the bright students in the class; the Ashkenazi Jew that scores in the top third of his Jewish peers will score in the top 95% of the general population; and the top 95% scorer among fellow Jews (about 1 in 20) will score in the top 99.9% of the general population (about 1 in 1000).

It is neither coincidence nor conspiracy that Jews are vastly overrepresented in intellectual professions such as banking, finance, law, medicine, and creative endeavors; it's just evidence of their superior intellectual capacity or achievements. Rather ironic and almost humorous to compare Hitler's rantings about the Master Race. If any group fits Hitler's twisted Master Race idea, it is the very Jews he was so passionately murdering.

Edited May 3 by Vort

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Have you ever asked a practicing Jewish person what they think about “Messianic Jews” or “Jews for Jesus”? I have. It’s not flattering.

Yep - my Jewish Mormon buddy in my ward has some stories.  Lost friends, family who cut ties.

(He's doing fine though - he married a fiery redhead former-Catholic-turned-Mormon with a similar story, and they're both a hoot.)

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep - my Jewish Mormon buddy in my ward has some stories.  Lost friends, family who cut ties.

Sad that it came to that. I’m very blessed-when I swung from Catholic to LDS I had a few awkward talks with family but it never came to anything like that for a long period of time. 

I’m not a parent, but I am a son/brother/nephew/uncle/friend. Short of a homicide or SA charge, I think people throw away family bonds much too easily. 

Edited May 3 by LDSGator

[prisonchaplain]

16 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Have you ever asked a practicing Jewish person what they think about “Messianic Jews” or “Jews for Jesus”? I have. It’s not flattering.
 

To many serious Jews a “Jew for Jesus” is as illogical as a round square or an African American man joining the KKK. 

Yes, I'm aware. Interestingly, the Orthodox rabbi I worked with said that Evangelicals were the best friends Jews have in America. We are pro-Israel, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and even though we 'witness' to Jews, when they put a hand up and say, "Not interested in your Jesus," we tend to stop. On the other hand, the Lubavitch rabbi said he despised Evangelicals and that we were guilty of attempted spiritual rape (for trying to convert Jews to Christianity). 

Messianic Jews respond and accuse non-Messianic Judaism of actually being rabbinic Judaism. They argue that the rabbis don't have the spiritual authority to say who is or is not the Messiah. Those who realize just how deep this controversy goes find themselves at a loss. On the one hand, Jesus commands Christians to witness "first to Jerusalem," and on the other, opposition to Jesus is what unites nearly all Jews (including secular ones). This probably explains, at least partially, why we see Israel as important in the last days, why we identify with Jews (seeing ourselves grafted into the promises), and yet also see a distinction. 

[LDSGator]

7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Yes, I'm aware. Interestingly, the Orthodox rabbi I worked with said that Evangelicals were the best friends Jews have in America. We are pro-Israel, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and even though we 'witness' to Jews, when they put a hand up and say, "Not interested in your Jesus," we tend to stop. On the other hand, the Lubavitch rabbi said he despised Evangelicals and that we were guilty of attempted spiritual rape (for trying to convert Jews to Christianity). 

Messianic Jews respond and accuse non-Messianic Judaism of actually being rabbinic Judaism. They argue that the rabbis don't have the spiritual authority to say who is or is not the Messiah. Those who realize just how deep this controversy goes find themselves at a loss. On the one hand, Jesus commands Christians to witness "first to Jerusalem," and on the other, opposition to Jesus is what unites nearly all Jews (including secular ones). This probably explains, at least partially, why we see Israel as important in the last days, why we identify with Jews (seeing ourselves grafted into the promises), and yet also see a distinction. 

Witnessing to Jewish people is complicated. If they join a Christian church they’ll lose their entire family.  So you better treat them right, you’ll be all they have. 
 

You can walk away from them and still have your wife, kids, and family. If they doubt Christianity or have reservations about it after converting-they could have no one to turn to. 

Edited May 4 by LDSGator

[ZealoulyStriving]

9 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Yes, I'm aware. Interestingly, the Orthodox rabbi I worked with said that Evangelicals were the best friends Jews have in America. We are pro-Israel, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and even though we 'witness' to Jews, when they put a hand up and say, "Not interested in your Jesus," we tend to stop. On the other hand, the Lubavitch rabbi said he despised Evangelicals and that we were guilty of attempted spiritual rape (for trying to convert Jews to Christianity). 

Messianic Jews respond and accuse non-Messianic Judaism of actually being rabbinic Judaism. They argue that the rabbis don't have the spiritual authority to say who is or is not the Messiah. Those who realize just how deep this controversy goes find themselves at a loss. On the one hand, Jesus commands Christians to witness "first to Jerusalem," and on the other, opposition to Jesus is what unites nearly all Jews (including secular ones). This probably explains, at least partially, why we see Israel as important in the last days, why we identify with Jews (seeing ourselves grafted into the promises), and yet also see a distinction. 

We are actively instructed to not engage in any religious talk, even if they ask:

"Non-proselytizing 

The Center has made a firm commitment that no one associated with the Center, BYU, or Church will engage in Christian proselytizing activities while in the Holy Land. Students may not proselytize, directly or indirectly. Proselytizing is defined as any activity that could be construed as aimed at including, encouraging, or leading people in the country of Israel to investigate any religion for possible conversion. Such activities are strictly contrary to the desires of the government and people of Israel and to the commitments made by BYU, the Jerusalem Center, and the Church. Students must agree to not distribute, either directly, by mail, or by internet, any materials pertaining to the Church or its doctrines within Israel or Palestine. It is not permitted to discuss the Church or its doctrines or answer any questions regarding the Church or its doctrines with individuals who reside in the Holy Land or who may be visiting there. Guests who are not LDS are not permitted to attend Church services held in the Holy Land. If asked questions about the Church, students must state that they are in the Holy Land as a student and are not permitted to discuss the Church or its doctrines".

https://jerusalemcenter.ce.byu.edu/content/non-proselytizing

 

Edited May 4 by ZealoulyStriving

[LDSGator]

35 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

We are actively instructed to not engage in any religious talk, even if they ask:

"Non-proselytizing 

The Center has made a firm commitment that no one associated with the Center, BYU, or Church will engage in Christian proselytizing activities while in the Holy Land. Students may not proselytize, directly or indirectly. Proselytizing is defined as any activity that could be construed as aimed at including, encouraging, or leading people in the country of Israel to investigate any religion for possible conversion. Such activities are strictly contrary to the desires of the government and people of Israel and to the commitments made by BYU, the Jerusalem Center, and the Church. Students must agree to not distribute, either directly, by mail, or by internet, any materials pertaining to the Church or its doctrines within Israel or Palestine. It is not permitted to discuss the Church or its doctrines or answer any questions regarding the Church or its doctrines with individuals who reside in the Holy Land or who may be visiting there. Guests who are not LDS are not permitted to attend Church services held in the Holy Land. If asked questions about the Church, students must state that they are in the Holy Land as a student and are not permitted to discuss the Church or its doctrines".

https://jerusalemcenter.ce.byu.edu/content/non-proselytizing

 

That makes me feel better. The church has wonderful judgment on these issues. 

[Traveler]

I have wondered how to respond in this thread.  @Vorthas introduced quite a dichotomy already on the issue, but I am of the mind that there is much more to consider – that this goes much deeper as well as wider.  The Jews are not the ancient covenant people of G-d but rather a small branch (tribe) of a much greater Israel with whom G-d anciently established his covenant.  And yet the Jews do play a most important roll in the events of the last days.  Of similar, or even greater importance comes through the descendants of Joseph and in particular Ephraim.

It is my understanding that most of the Christian support for Israel comes from ancient Biblical scripture.  Perhaps foremost is the Book of Isaiah.  I will make a comment here about ancient Hebrew scripture.  I am far from an expert; I cannot read ancient text and must rely on inspired translations for which I cannot find any clearly divined divine authorization.  I understand that good people like @prisonchaplain and the vast majority of Christianity that believe that the Bible is inviolate, pure, complete and authorized scripture.  That the Bible is the Christian canon of scripture.  Beyond textual criticism of ancient text from which the Bible is compiled, I have come to believe that the doctrine of canon is a pagan inspired doctrine and part of the great apostasy (paganization of Christianity).   I could use stronger vernacular, and more detail but I have found clearer descriptions are likely to upset our Christian Cousins rather than help in understanding.

Beyond the Book of Isaiah, I believe the best template for the Last-days is the Book of Mormon.  The title page of the Book of Mormon is prophetic and directed specifically to the modern Jews and Gentiles (Gentiles here relate to the scattering of Israel - not just Jews - among the Gentile nations).  Of particular importance is the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon.  But Jacob (chapters 5 – 6) is an abridgement from the ancient prophet Zenos and is somewhat criptic parable.

As to the current dilemma of the Middle East – My impression is that there will be a great war that will involve most nations – perhaps we can call this war – World War III.  The center focus of this war will be what we currently call Israel – which is occupied by the Jews in their divinely promised land with Jerusalem at its center.   The prime center of opposition to Israel will come from the ancient area of Magog – an area that is itself currently involved in war (Russia – Ukraine).   From this beginning (in the area of Magog) the nations of the earth with be gathered in war.  This war will unearth a movement that has been brewing since Jesus walked among us – this movement is referred to in ancient scripture as the Anti-Christ.  This war will take a number of years and I believe nuclear weapons will be used.  Two witnesses of Christ (similar to Moses and Aaron in Egypt) will protect the Jews similar to the plagues of Egypt the protected Isarel anciently.  I believe the current Nation if Israel will fall, and the two witnesses of Christ will be killed in Jerusalem.  Jesus Christ will appear near Jerusalem and will preserve and save a remnant of Jews that will behold Jesus and his hands and feet and be converted to Christ.  Those that came to destroy the nation of Israel will themselves be destroyed.  Sometime soon to follow this appearance of Christ the sign (spoken of in Matthew 24) will be given of the coming of Christ into the world – at which time all the world (wicked) will be burned with fire and those prepared for this return of Christ will be preserved.

As for myself, I believe Israel should defend itself from Hamas.  I am conflicted (do not support) all the deaths in Gazza.  I am very conflicted as to who to blame though I believe Hamas initiated the conflict and should be held responsible for that – I just do not know how.  I do believe the events we are currently observing are fulfilment of ancient prophesy and that we will yet experience many miracles – both in preparation of a people for the return of Christ and to preserve a remnant of the Jews.  I am in support of the many miracles to come which I believe will include some Muslims, Jews, Traditional Christians and of course the Latter-day Saints.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Hamas initiated the conflict and should be held responsible

I totally agree they started it. Frankly, Israel has the right to slug back with full force. And they did. Good. Don’t kill innocent people and this won’t be a problem. 
 

I believe it’s time for a ceasefire. Israel won. They beat them badly and Hamas got what was coming. But now, all Palestinians, including innocent women and children are paying for it. It’s a bit much. 
 

I view Hamas the way I view a boxer who fights dirty. Sure, I’m willing to let the clean guy teach him a lesson, but I’m not going to handcuff the dirty ones arms and let you uppercut his 8 year old daughter.  

[LDSGator]

It is easy for me to say “Go light on Hamas” when I don’t have to worry about getting blown up by terrorists who hate me-but it’s also easy to say “Nuke Gaza” when it’s not my 70 year mother who just got slaughtered in her own home while crocheting. 

Edited May 6 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Israel's stated goals aren't about holding people responsible or bringing anyone to justice.  Israel's stated goals are all about ensuring Hamas permanently loses the ability to threaten Israel.   You don't get that by making it all the way to Rafah and then doing a deal with the intact Hamas leadership.

Just sayin'.  

[prisonchaplain]

A couple of responses. @Traveler, you think deeply and well. We may not agree about the canon, but I always appreciate your insights--especially in this string. We have remarkably similar views, despite our differences concerning the canon of scripture. 

@LDSGator, I get your perspective and have some sympathy for the Gazan residents. However, Israel is literally fighting an existential battle. If they stop now, they will not be perceived as winners. The Jews faced genocide once. Now they've discovered that many in the USA--even in NYC--especially our young--might allow such again. I'm not so sure I can tell them how to fight back. I pray for the day when we truly recognize Jews have a right to exist and they have a right to keep their homeland. 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I totally agree they started it. Frankly, Israel has the right to slug back with full force. And they did. Good. Don’t kill innocent people and this won’t be a problem. 
 

I believe it’s time for a ceasefire. Israel won. They beat them badly and Hamas got what was coming. But now, all Palestinians, including innocent women and children are paying for it. It’s a bit much. 
 

I view Hamas the way I view a boxer who fights dirty. Sure, I’m willing to let the clean guy teach him a lesson, but I’m not going to handcuff the dirty ones arms and let you uppercut his 8 year old daughter.  

During WWII the USA was directly involved in the firebombing of Hamburg and Dresden in Germany as well as Tokyo in Japan.  The USA also dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan.  None of these were military targets but intended to quail any civilian resistance to our military victories.  Israel followed the lead of the USA in WWII by notifying the civilians of the intents to use their cities as targets of war thinking to end the conflict.  I do not believe any of this was as necessary in WWII, as was thought at the time.  I also believe that the Nephits in the Book of Mormon were advised not to take the offensive attack to the Lamanites civilization cities as a tactic of war.

I am under the impression that Hamas (and Iran) are outmaneuvering Israel (as well as the USA) with worldwide support in the conflict they initiated.  That they have weaponized their own civilization population and using their innocent civilian deaths to their advantage.   It looks to me that even the demonstrations planed in support of Hamas here in the USA have exploited much of our own civilian ignorance and caught our leaders (national security and news reporters) completely off guard.  As a nation we are divided and conflicted in our leadership.  We are losing and will be defeated should we continue on this course of action.  For several months I have had the spiritual impression that this summer will bring violent tribulations of conflict within our borders which will bring to pass generations of modern prophecy concerning the arm of the flesh.  Though things will continue to get worse – I believe it will be it will not be fast enough to alarm very many; like heating up water in a pot with a frog – by time the water begins to boil – it will be too late for the frog.  We have some time of warming up still remaining – so life will continue without major interruption – for a while longer.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The Jews faced genocide once. Now they've discovered that many in the USA--even in NYC--especially our young--might allow such again. I'm not so sure I can tell them how to fight back. I pray for the day when we truly recognize Jews have a right to exist and they have a right to keep their homeland. 

Yup. That’s all true. I’m still on team Israel 100%, but that doesn’t mean I can’t raise concerns. 

[NeuroTypical]

38 minutes ago, Traveler said:

During WWII the USA was directly involved in the firebombing of Hamburg and Dresden in Germany as well as Tokyo in Japan.  The USA also dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan.  None of these were military targets but intended to quail any civilian resistance to our military victories.

While it's inarguably true that we specifically targeted city infrastructure and civilians as part of the overall bombing campaigns of these cities, you cannot claim that Hamburg, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were not military targets.

Hamburg was a large industrial center, containing things like shipyards, U-boat pens, and oil refineries.

Hiroshima was a an embarkation port and industrial center that was the site of a major military headquarters.  It was a supply and logistics base for the Japanese military.  It was a communications center and an assembly area for troops.  

Nagasaki was one of the largest military seaports in southern Japan.  It was a shipbuilding center, and was a huge industrial base for producing naval ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Again, I don't think anyone will argue that we intentionally bombed and killed civilian infrastructure and civilians during these campaigns.  But you have to ignore an awful lot of historical facts to claim there was nothing of military value in those 3 cities.

 

[Carborendum]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:47 PM, prisonchaplain said:

To dial down on this a bit, do you see yourself as part of the OT covenant? I ask because most of us who believe God is still working with his people--the Jews--see ourselves, perhaps as grafted into Israel--but more as loosely included. In other words, God has some special dealings with Israel. Many Jews will also convert to a saving knowledge of Yeshua (Jesus). However, we see ourselves as directly under Jesus' protection. So, we ID with the Jews but see ourselves as distinct. 

I would modify NT's response a bit.

There were MANY covenants made during OT times.  Abraham's was one such covenant.  Those promises made to Abraham regarding his posterity still bless the lives of his descendants.  And we consider ourselves among them (either by birth or by adoption).

Other covenants were made to the Israelites during the time of the Law of Moses.  And those who follow that law do inherit some of the blessings from that covenant.

After the Resurrection, another covenant was introduced.  And all people have access to that covenant, not just Jews.  But the idea that Christians replaced the Jews is a mistaken notion.  Jews were the first Christians.

And today, Jews are just as welcome to convert to Christianity as anyone on earth.