Does Tact = Deception?

[zil2]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I first need examples of the right thing to do.  No one offers them to me.

Here you go (should be able to view it without an Instagram account):

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6yGExnrVW4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Something like this happened to me recently.  This is a question of "framing."

"It was better than I expected" can be taken either way.  You meant it one way.  They took it another way.  Luckily your wife was able to translate.

I was not so fortunate.  My wife was the one who got upset, believing I had offended someone.  But luckily, the person that was supposed to be offended took it the way I intended.  He didn't have a problem with it.

I have an exceptional wife. Your comments reminded me of a story about a reporter interviewing the wife of Albert Einstein.  The reporter asked if she understood Einstein’s theory of relativity and special relativity.  She responded that there were a lot of people that understand Albert’s theories but that she was one of the very few people that understands Albert.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have an exceptional wife. Your comments reminded me of a story about a reporter interviewing the wife of Albert Einstein.  The reporter asked if she understood Einstein’s theory of relativity and special relativity.  She responded that there were a lot of people that understand Albert’s theories but that she was one of the very few people that understands Albert.

 

The Traveler

His wife was his double cousin, a first cousin on their mothers' side (mothers were sisters) and a second cousin on their fathers' side (fathers were first cousins to each other). Probably easier to get to know your spouse when they're family. "We met at Grandpa's*."

*Actual comment made to Sister Vort and me many years ago when getting to know a lovely young couple who were first cousins.

Edited June 4 by Vort

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

His wife was his double cousin, a first cousin on their mothers' side (mothers were sisters) and a second cousin on their fathers' side (fathers were first cousins to each other). Probably easier to get to know your spouse when they're family. "We met at Grandpa's*."

*Actual comment made to Sister Vort and me many years ago when getting to know a lovely young couple who were first cousins.

I never knew that. Cousin marriage was popular in the past though. 

[LDSGator]

Apparently Darwin also married a cousin. 

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I never knew that. Cousin marriage was popular in the past though. 

Not merely popular, but positively unavoidable when you're born and reared in a tiny village, with your nearest neighbors being other tiny villages within a day's walk of you, and no automobiles or technological public transportation to get around easily. Cousin marriage was the norm in some areas, and many traditional cultures still exalt cousin and other close relative marriages.

My very good Muslim friend from grad school told me several times that the ideal marriage for a Muslim man is to marry his older brother's daughter, i.e. a man should marry his niece. This would all but ensure domestic felicity and harmony. Sounds a bit icky to us, but that was the traditional belief. If I understood my friend correctly, traditional societies in Saudi Arabia and other Arabic countries continue to view ideal marriage through that lens.

Edited June 5 by Vort

[LDSGator]

Just now, Vort said:

Not merely popular, but positively unavoidable when you're born and reared in a tiny village, with your nearest neighbors being other tiny villages within a day's walk of you, and no automobiles or technological public transportation to get around easily

Excellent point. 

 

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Sounds a bit icky to us

Yup. 

[mikbone]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

My very good Muslim friend from grad school told me several times that the ideal marriage for a Muslim man is to marry his older brother's daughter

What if I’m the oldest brother?  Am I just producing daughters for my younger brothers?

And what are my options?  

Nah, hard pass.

[LDSGator]

18 hours ago, mikbone said:

What if I’m the oldest brother?  Am I just producing daughters for my younger brothers?

And what are my options?  

Nah, hard pass.

Dude, just stop thinking about it. You don’t want an answer! Lol

[NeuroTypical]

18 hours ago, mikbone said:

What if I’m the oldest brother?  Am I just producing daughters for my younger brothers?

If there's a thing called "blunt but it's ok you're not being tactful because it's all in good fun", I've done it on this topic.   For the decades I was raising daughters, I characterized the Aaronic Priesthood program and the Boy Scouts effort in terms of "training camps to produce an acceptable dating pool for my daughters".  When Friends of Scouting was asking for donations, I'd write a check with "my daughter's future husband" on the line that indicated what was being bought.  Whenever talking to leaders getting ready to go on the campout or whatever, I'd say something like "get 'em trained right so my daughters'll give 'em the time of day!"

It works both ways.

[classylady]

On 6/4/2024 at 8:56 AM, Carborendum said:

I've always wondered about this.  But when I bring it up, I think people get the wrong impression.

I understand the idea "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."  That is simply "not speaking." I can always choose to not engage.  But then I've found myself accused of being passive aggressive or some similar/related descriptor.

But when I've been given examples of saying some things tactfully, there is always some deception involved.  I've really tried to understand this concept, but I just don't.

Example: A woman is very unattractive no matter what she does.  She asks if this dress goes with her features.  A simple yes or no would be accurate.  Simply saying, "No, you really won't look attractive no matter what you put on" is really rude and uncalled for.  But the example I was given was to suggest another dress and say, "That one makes you even more beautiful."  It didn't.  So, wouldn't that be a lie?

First, it didn't make her look any more beautiful.  Second, it implies that she is already beautiful, which she wasn't.

Now, there are some statements that can be taken either way.  I've found this to be the best way to get through it without lying.  If they took it the bad way, that was up to them.  If they took it the good way, that was up to them.  But I can't always figure out a good way to do that in many situations.  So, what am I supposed to do?

I wonder if honest tact is an innate talent/gift? I suppose it could be learned. I think one of my “gifts” might be tact because I have a hard time saying anything to anyone that would hurt their feelings in any way. It’s just not my nature. I try really hard to treat others the way I want to be treated, with kindness and respect. I don’t think I lie when giving people tactful feedback.

I can’t say I’ve never hurt someone’s feelings, and when I have, I feel guilty and terrible about it for ages. I can still remember telling a neighbor girl in Young Women’s back in high school that “it isn’t any of your business” when she asked me a question that I now no longer can remember. (I think she asked me if I had a boyfriend, but I’m not sure.) I certainly remember my rude reply. And, I still feel terrible about it. I’ve tried very hard to never say anything like that ever again.

There are ways to tell someone if an outfit isn’t right for their body type without being rude and implying they are fat, skinny, boxy, wrong coloring, or whatever their problem area may be. It’s tricky, for sure, especially if they have directly asked for your opinion. 

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, classylady said:

I wonder if honest tact is an innate talent/gift? I suppose it could be learned.

It is definitely innate.  But that doesn't mean it can't be learned.  It just needs to be taught in the right way. 

I'm not exactly autistic.  But I've always been socially awkward until the year before I met my wife.  I came across a particular series of videos which went over social interactions from a very scientific/analytic perspective.  It was the first time I realized why all the common behaviors from others actually made sense.  Once I actually understood why, I began recognizing how.

I believe the big thing was that I absolutely did not get the why.   So, how on earth could my brain even begin to process  the how?

Perhaps the mental block I'm having is that I absolutely get the why behind telling the truth.  I still don't get the why of lying to spare someone's feelings.  I simply don't put sparing someone's feelings as a higher priority than honesty.

I accept it enough to remain silent or change the subject.  And I can also tell the truth with a less critical tone.  But at the end of the day it still hurts people's feelings.   And my motivation is far from trying to hurt them.  But they get hurt anyway.

[Carborendum]

On 6/4/2024 at 5:55 PM, zil2 said:

Here you go (should be able to view it without an Instagram account):

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6yGExnrVW4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Well, that's 1.  Thanks.

But, noticed that it required deception and misdirection?  Is that really the only option?  Can we do something along these lines while involving no deception at all?

I'm beginning to believe, no.

Edited June 6 by Carborendum

[mordorbund]

@zil2’s instagram post is a good example. The principles I think of with tact and honesty are:

1. This is not the prisoner’s dilemma pitting the value of honesty vs the value of kindness within your character. It is more like the infinite prisoners dilemma.

2. There is a question that is spoken aloud, but in these cases there’s usually an implicit question that is really getting asked.

Strangers don’t ask your opinion about whether a dress makes her a desirable date. The concern in your case includes honesty but also includes the relationships. You can tell roomie that her system ain’t cutting it but you may need to delay your own date while your date picks up the pieces. That’s why people lie. The tactful approach should not merely be looking to spare feelings but should look for ways to strengthen (or at least not weaken) the relationship. Finding an honest response that does this usually leans on principle 2.

in @zil2’s example, what was the question? “Did you like the play?” But what did she want to know? “I’m an actress, and I do this so people can have a certain experience in the seats. As my friend I wanted you to have that experience, and share in the joy I feel in my talents. Did you experience that?” There’s a much wider set of responses based on that. The play itself sucked, so you didn’t get that experience. She sucks at acting, so you didn’t get that experience. It looks like the entire audience thinks she sucks, so you don’t feel any joy in such a talent. Well, she’s clearly having some sort of a positive experience, if you can see why then you can comment on that. “Thanks for inviting me. I can see how you can get jazzed taking on the role of such a character.” You didn’t answer the spoken question but you did respond to what she was asking. For the sake of the long-term relationship you should consider if you go out for pizza tomorrow for the fuller assessment.

in the case of roomie she may be asking if the dress highlights her features, but she’s asking if the effort she put into the date will be appreciated. Don’t answer the first question, answer the second. “I tell you what, you look like someone ready to have a great time. You better behave yourself!” The next day while you’re vacuuming your girlfriend’s apartment you can give fashion advice (or just mention it to your date) depending on what the relationship is like.

[zil2]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

...deception and misdirection...

It required him to refrain from saying anything negative initially - you yourself have said you do that.  And it required him to say the only positive thing he could think of - and that positivity seemed sincere to me.  And it required him to wait before he said the negative.  I don't see that as deception or misdirection ("the action or process of directing someone to the wrong place or in the wrong direction.")

If your definition of honesty is "say everything you think, right when asked", then I suppose you have no choice but to risk being perceived as too blunt, tactless, or hurtful.  Or, you know, wrap a bandage around your head and mumble like your jaw is wired shut... ETA: Oops, that's deceptive.  Print up little cards that say, "I have taken a vow of silence. Thank you for understanding." When needed, quickly vow silence (in your mind) and then hand out one of the cards.

Edited June 6 by zil2

[Carborendum]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:19 PM, mordorbund said:

Strangers don’t ask your opinion about whether a dress makes her a desirable date.

I've had it happen to me.

[mordorbund]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've had it happen to me.

I can only imagine that happening when they’re looking to make a purchase. For that case they really mean what they ask and you should answer with relevant honesty. If it’s some other scenario, then you don’t have to weigh a future relationship in the mix so answer the question you think is getting asked.

[Carborendum]

26 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I can only imagine that happening when they’re looking to make a purchase. For that case they really mean what they ask and you should answer with relevant honesty. If it’s some other scenario, then you don’t have to weigh a future relationship in the mix so answer the question you think is getting asked.

The event in question was when I went to pick up a girl for a date.  Her roommate (who was going on a date as well) asked me (in the spirit of "Hey, you're a guy.  I need a guy's opinion") if she looked good in that dress.

I said that I'm not the best person to ask about that.  She did not look good in that dress or any dress.  That was my opinion.

[Carborendum]

I had a conversation with my wife about this.  And she is about the kindest, most polite person ever.  

After a candid conversation, she finally admitted, "it's just a little while lie."

There really is no way around it.  There is always deception in not telling someone the truth for the sole purpose of sparing their feelings.

[Jamie123]

It reminds me of "William's Truthful Christmas" by Richmal Crompton. Eleven year old William Brown is spending Christmas with his aunt and uncle. He has taken a little too literally the vicar's Christmas sermon on "casting aside deceit and hypocrisy and speaking the truth".

Quote

Uncle Frederick looked out of the window and groaned aloud.

“It’s Lady Atkinson,” he said, “Help! Help!”

“Now, Frederick dear,” said Aunt Emma hastily, “Don’t talk like that and do try to be nice to her. She’s one of the Atkinsons, you know,” she explained with empressement to Mrs. Brown in a whisper as the lady was shown in.

Lady Atkinson was stout and elderly and wore a very youthful hat and coat.

“A happy Christmas to you all!” she said graciously. “The boy? Your nephew? William? How do you do, William? He—stares rather, doesn’t he? Ah, yes,” she greeted every one separately with infinite condescension.

“I’ve brought you my Christmas present in person,” she went on in the tone of voice of one giving an unheard-of treat. “Look!”

She took out of an envelope a large signed photograph of herself. “There now ... what do you think of that?”

Murmurs of surprise and admiration and gratitude.

Lady Atkinson drank them in complacently.

“It’s very good isn’t it? You ... little boy ... don’t you think it’s very like me?”

William gazed at it critically.

“It’s not as fat as you are,” was his final offering at the altar of truth.

“William!” screamed Mrs. Brown, “how can you be so impolite!”

“Impolite?” said William with some indignation. “I’m not tryin’ to be polite! I’m bein’ truthful. I can’t be everything. Seems to me I’m the only person in the world what is truthful an’ no one seems to be grateful to me. It isn’t ’s fat as what she is,” he went on doggedly, “an’ it’s not got as many little lines on its face as what she has an’ it’s different lookin’ altogether. It looks pretty an’ she doesn’t——”

Lady Atkinson towered over him, quivering with rage.

“You nasty little boy!” she said thrusting her face close to his. “You NASTY—little—boy!”

Then she swept out of the room without another word.

The front door slammed.

She was gone.

Aunt Emma sat down and began to weep.

“She’ll never come to the house again,” she said.

“I always said he ought to be hung,” said Robert gloomily. “Every day we let him live he complicates our lives still worse.”

“I shall tell your father, William,” said Mrs. Brown, “directly we get home.”

“The kindest thing to think,” said Ethel, “is that he’s mad.”

“Well,” said William, “I don’ know what I’ve done ’cept cast aside deceit an’—an’ the other thing what he said in church an’ speak the truth an’ that. I don’ know why every one’s so mad at me jus’ ’cause of that. You’d think they’d be glad!”

“She’ll never set foot in the house again,” sobbed Aunt Emma.

Uncle Frederick, who had been vainly trying to hide his glee, rose.

“I don’t think she will, my dear,” he said cheerfully. “Nothing like the truth, William ... absolutely nothing.”

He pressed a half-crown into William’s hand surreptitiously as he went to the door....

SPOILER: Uncle Frederick was being overoptimistic. Lady Atkinson returns later in a mercilessly forgiving mood.

Edited June 21 by Jamie123
I before e except after c

[Jamie123]

Reminds me of something else too. When I was about seven, a little girl was abducted and murdered near our school. The investigation went on for weeks, during which all children had it drilled into their heads that they must NEVER talk to strangers and should CERTAINLY never get into a car with a stranger.

Well at the height of all this, I was just leaving school when a bearded man I didn't recognize stepped in front of me and asked me if I wanted a lift.

I said "No".

He said "Why not?"

Had I been a little older I would have invented a little white lie. However, I was only seven. My 100% truthful reply was: "Because you might be the man who murdered the girl."

By the time I got home it was all over the neighbourhood that I'd been "Calling Mr. Williams a murderer". My parents were dying with embarrassment, and it was all anyone wanted to talk about for ages.

Well what the Dickens did they expect?

1. I'd only met the guy once or twice before in my life and in a totally different setting.

2. He had grown a beard since then.

3. We had had it drummed into us for weeks about not getting into cars with strangers, so how the heck was I going to react?

4. Who was to say he wasn't the murderer?

For all I know he still might have been. The police did "get" somebody for the crime, but his conviction was later overturned on appeal. A few years back someone wrote a book about the case claiming it was the Yorkshire Ripper. But after all this time I doubt we'll ever know.

Edited June 21 by Jamie123

[Vort]

There are some very deep differences between Americans and the English in matters of temperament, manners, mannerisms, expectations, and social grace.

[Jamie123]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

There are some very deep differences between Americans and the English in matters of temperament, manners, mannerisms, expectations, and social grace.

I notice in America it's the norm to address people you don't know as "sir" or "madam". I think that was common here once but its gone out of fashion. Instead of "Excuse me, sir," we would just say "Excuse me".

[zil2]

47 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Excuse me, sir

 

[Carborendum]