Satan knew not the mind of God

[laronius]

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

The interpretation I've heard in regards to the underlined part is that Satan did not realize that God planned for Adam and Eve to fall so Satan was really just playing into God's hands. 

If that is correct, does that mean the fall was not explained in the council in heaven? And what did he think Jehovah's role in all this was? 

If you don't think that is correct, what do you think it refers to?

[mikbone]

The basics were explained.  But no one understood the specifics (excepting Jehovah).

[CV75]

10 hours ago, laronius said:

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

The interpretation I've heard in regards to the underlined part is that Satan did not realize that God planned for Adam and Eve to fall so Satan was really just playing into God's hands. 

If that is correct, does that mean the fall was not explained in the council in heaven? And what did he think Jehovah's role in all this was? 

If you don't think that is correct, what do you think it refers to?

Perhaps the serpent is one of the premortal spirits drawn after Lucifer/Satan [“for he had drawn away many after him”] who no longer knew the mind of God, being in complete subjection to Lucifer/Satan.

Or, perhaps the serpent is a figurative expression of the filters of the veiled human mind which affect the perception and interpretation of spiritual messages from any source. The serpent in this case represents the limited understanding of Adam and Eve, whether regarding the voice of God or the voice of Satan, hence their back-and-forth between beguiling and rationalizing themselves.

But if it is Satan himself who knows not the mind of God and seeks to destroy the world, it could simply be a reference to his not being united or one with the Father, Son and holy Ghost. He is not of one, or the same mind, as God.

[Traveler]

It is my impression that the scripture you are referencing gives spiritual pieces into events that are part of our pre-existence and specifically into the Plan of Salvation.  This is why the creation and Eden epochs are symbolically presented in scripture – they are critical in order to participate in the ordinances and covenants that comprise the Plan of Salvation.  I think we also get a little insight into the war in heaven – among other things.

 @mikbone presents a most important element of “knowledge”.  There is a difference of intelligence between being exposed to light and truth and embracing light and truth.  Hugh Nibley believed that the role of the Messiah was to guide us through the fall.  Satan, not knowing the light and truth of the Plan of Salvation sought not so much to destroy the plan as to insert himself and the darkness of his mind such that all would lose their agency and become bonded (in bondage) to him.

In essence he is of a different mind than that of the mercy and compassion of G-d.   We are told in scripture that without the Atonement (Kippur in Hebrew) the only possibility is that man would become trapped into the bondage servitude of Satan – I believe this would be true even without the fall of mankind.  That the Plan of Salvation is the only means by which man can have agency and know good from evil in order to become exalted and worthy to reside as Celestial beings in the presents of G-d.

I believe that there is much to be discussed in order to better understand what little glimpses we are given in scripture of that war begun in heaven that is still going on over the freedom or captivity of the individual soles of mankind.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

Random thoughts:

Perhaps Satan thought that his actions would lead to a different outcome (as opposed to God teaching Adam and Eve sufficient for them to make the choice to fall without Satan enticing them - or however it was "done in other worlds" (assuming that wasn't a lie, too)).

Perhaps Satan was hoping to get them to partake of the tree of life and live forever in their sins, but because he didn't know the mind of God, he didn't know God would intervene to stop that.

Perhaps we also don't know the mind of God and therefore can't fully understand this verse (without further revelation).

These verses come to mind as relevant:

Quote

D&C 132:24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

Clearly, Satan did not know God.

Quote

D&C 76:94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

Better understanding of what it means to know.

Quote

D&C 93:37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

I knew someone who had fallen away from the Church - and was not that many years from being active - maybe a handful at most.  And yet, she had forgotten a lot about the Church and the gospel.  (Good news: she and her husband returned to full activity.)  Perhaps the moment Lucifer was cast out, he also began to forget.

Quote

D&C 50:24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

Quote

D&C 1:33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Quote

D&C 43:10 That inasmuch as ye do this, glory shall be added to the kingdom which ye have received. Inasmuch as ye do it not, it shall be taken, even that which ye have received.

Quote

D&C 60:3 And it shall come to pass, if they are not more faithful unto me, it shall be taken away, even that which they have.

Also...

11 hours ago, laronius said:

he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

...or perhaps he was just so dang arrogant that he actually thought he had a chance of succeeding at destroying the world - because he knew not the mind of God (see above for what this means).  Perhaps it also means he had no faith....

Here end our random thoughts - got stuff to do before church!

[mikbone]

The temple narrative hints that after Adam and Eve fell, Eve could recognize Lucifer for who he was during the pre-mortal existence.

Yet when Adam sacrifices the lambs, He has no idea that it is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten.  Moses 5:7

And even After being taught this lesson, Adam must have wondered how the slaughtering a lamb, burning it upon an altar and consuming its flesh represented a future act that was described as “providing a Savior”

We have the benefit of witnessing the Atonement after the fact and we still have difficulty making the association between the two events.

Every time Adam gave sacrifice thereafter, he must have wondered how can this horrible act be a similitude - what is going to happen?!

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by mikbone

[mikbone]

In the temple narrative, Lucifer makes many statements.  

But he is the father of lies.  You cannot trust anything that he says.  

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, mikbone said:

In the temple narrative, Lucifer makes many statements.  

But he is the father of lies.  You cannot trust anything that he says.  

Agreed.  It's one of those situations where what he says might be true, might not be true, or might be said in a way to ensure you misunderstand.  Whichever is the case, his intention in say the words is always self-serving.

[laronius]

11 hours ago, mikbone said:

The basics were explained.  But no one understood the specifics (excepting Jehovah).

It would be interesting to know exactly how much comprehension they had, including Satan. I guess it's possible that even they had some type of a veil placed over them on coming to earth. Though clearly not to the same extent as us.

[laronius]

59 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Random thoughts:

Perhaps Satan thought that his actions would lead to a different outcome (as opposed to God teaching Adam and Eve sufficient for them to make the choice to fall without Satan enticing them - or however it was "done in other worlds" (assuming that wasn't a lie, too)).

Perhaps Satan was hoping to get them to partake of the tree of life and live forever in their sins, but because he didn't know the mind of God, he didn't know God would intervene to stop that.

Perhaps we also don't know the mind of God and therefore can't fully understand this verse (without further revelation).

These verses come to mind as relevant:

Clearly, Satan did not know God.

Better understanding of what it means to know.

I knew someone who had fallen away from the Church - and was not that many years from being active - maybe a handful at most.  And yet, she had forgotten a lot about the Church and the gospel.  (Good news: she and her husband returned to full activity.)  Perhaps the moment Lucifer was cast out, he also began to forget.

Also...

...or perhaps he was just so dang arrogant that he actually thought he had a chance of succeeding at destroying the world - because he knew not the mind of God (see above for what this means).  Perhaps it also means he had no faith....

Here end our random thoughts - got stuff to do before church!

You have provided much to chew on, though I will specifically address your last point of Satan's arrogance. I have often wondered, and I know others have as well, about how Satan thought he could prevail against God in the premortal world. He clearly isn't stupid. But there had to be something, even if mistaken, that made him think he stood a chance. It's very possible that this lack of understanding in the garden is a continuation of his original rebellion.

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

 @mikbone presents a most important element of “knowledge”.  There is a difference of intelligence between being exposed to light and truth and embracing light and truth.  Hugh Nibley believed that the role of the Messiah was to guide us through the fall.  Satan, not knowing the light and truth of the Plan of Salvation sought not so much to destroy the plan as to insert himself and the darkness of his mind such that all would lose their agency and become bonded (in bondage) to him.

This comment made me think of this verse:

D&C 45:7 For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world—a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

I think this doctrine was definitely a contributing factor in Lucifer's mental and spiritual state both in the premortal world and the garden.

[zil2]

40 minutes ago, laronius said:

This comment made me think of this verse:

D&C 45:7 For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world—a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

Per Johnson's 1828 dictionary, the primary meaning of "comprehend" is "to include" and the second is "to conceive".

I like to think of this verse with both meanings: darkness doesn't understand light; but it also doesn't contain or restrain or limit or bound light - which may seem false from a mortal perspective, where light has to be turned on to dispell the darkness that's already there, and yet it feels true to me. 

[mikbone]

Moses 4:6 6 Satan … knew not the mind of God,

Isaiah 55:9 9 my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

3 Ne 28:10 … and the Father and I are one;

[Just_A_Guy]

I suspect that Satan thought some combination of 

a) Father hadn’t *really* wanted to redeem His children at all; and/or

b) any redemptive process the Father instituted wouldn’t really be powerful enough to be effective, because the Father wouldn’t be able/willing to make the sort of sacrifice it would take for a plan of redemption to work.

In short:  I think Satan underestimated how much the Father loved His children.

Additionally:  from the temple drama, I think there’s a dimension of Satan trying to supplant God by setting himself up as the munificent provider of secret knowledge and progression that the Father was hoarding for Himself.  And again, I think Satan miscalculated how far God was willing to go to reconcile Adam and Eve to Himself; as well as the ultimate almost-irresistible nature of divine love and grace and the residual “homing instinct” that the Light of Christ would leave in the human spirit.  Satan assumed that Adam and Eve and their posterity, in their fallen state, would be as incorrigibly jaded and cynical and faithless as he himself was.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Satan assumed that Adam and Eve and their posterity, in their fallen state, would be as incorrigibly jaded and cynical and faithless as he himself was.

This seems consistent with a certain type of person: he thinks that everyone else wants what he wants and thinks as he thinks.  If they say otherwise, they're just lying in an effort to get what they want.  Most people grow out of this and realize that we don't all want the exact same things nor think in the exact same ways.  But some people seem convinced that everyone is after the same thing(s).

[Sal]

I believe in the big Picture God knew what was going to happen Just think about God tested Adam and Eve Didn’t he? God tests us in order for us to grow and mature and to share and bare out testimonies to others to help those in need God all omnipotent all knowing knew what Adam and Eve would do Satan on the other hand didn’t know but was there to try and destroy them Satans Plan failed fast forward to today we are here because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ Gods plan to redeem his own back to him that’s true love !

[Traveler]

I will give my impression of the symbology of the Eden epoch.  I have pondered a great deal about the fall and have come up with two possibilities – both of which seem to disagree with traditional thinking.  The great problem that I have pondered is – how did the fall of Adam and Eve (man) justly have an impact upon all of mankind?

Paramount to my thinking centers around our 2nd Article of Faith:

Quote

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Granted, Jesus suffered and gave us the Atonement (Kippur) that mitigates (redeems) Adam’s transgression but regardless of the Atonement (resurrection)– we will all pay the inevitable price of Adam’s transgression, and we will suffer death (both physical and spiritual).   The question in my mind is why?  How is it just that all will fall – and evitability die?

Here are the only two reason I have logically been able to surmise.  I would entertain any ideas I may not have completely considred. 

1 The Garden of Eden epoch is a symbolic representation of the war in heaven where Lucifer (Satan) attempted to deceive all the children of G-d the Father to follow him.  In essence we all decided (as symbolically represented by the epoch of Adam and Eve) that we choose to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

2 The Garden of Eden epoch is a symbolic presentation of a sacred ordinance performed by Adam and Eve where they represented themselves as well as all the covenant children of G-d by proxy and symbolically partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.  And we accepted the proxy.

 

I would note that from our LDS restored revelation (doctrine) that Satan’s part was not so different that that which had been done before (giving the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).  But I have come to consider that Lucifer conceived a cleaver plan to thwart that which had been done before.  That is that Satan conspired to divide the union (marriage) of Adam (men) and Eve (women) by tempting them separately and not allowing them to decide together to partake.  Thus, Satan introduced a great sin to give him an advantage over the covenant of marriage.  This sin was to convince married couples to make important decisions that affect them both – on their own without consulting with each other and working it out together.

I think that many discount the capabilities of Satan to disrupt G-d and his intent.  I believe that the scriptural mentions such evil efforts as capable of deceiving even the very elect.   That regardless of how clever we think of ourselves – without G-d’s intervention, Lucifer will outwit us.  This is the reason the scripture tells us that he did not know the mind of G-d – because he was not able to outwit G-d.  Everyone else – he will outwit.

 

The Traveler

[mrmarklin]

On 8/25/2024 at 8:43 AM, mikbone said:

In the temple narrative, Lucifer makes many statements.  

But he is the father of lies.  You cannot trust anything that he says.  

If one thinks about it, Satan did not lie in the garden.  He stated that Eve would become as the Gods, and would not surely die.  Very deceptive and omitted a few facts, but not an actual lie.  He did not outright lie about the temporal death (Adam and Eve Went on to live long temporal lives), but he omitted certain things about the spiritual death.  He told the truth about Man's possibilities regarding becoming like Gods.  Fortunately, a Savior has made all OK, both temporally and spiritually.

 

Gen 1:4

4“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

[mikbone]

48 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

If one thinks about it, Satan did not lie in the garden.

He intentionally deceived both Adam and Eve in order to do harm.  He acted out of enmity.

You could also say that God provided incomplete disclosure.  But His intentions were good and actions were motivated by love.

[Carborendum]

On 8/25/2024 at 10:11 AM, zil2 said:

Perhaps Satan thought that his actions would lead to a different outcome (as opposed to God teaching Adam and Eve sufficient for them to make the choice to fall without Satan enticing them - or however it was "done in other worlds" (assuming that wasn't a lie, too)).

Perhaps Satan was hoping to get them to partake of the tree of life and live forever in their sins, but because he didn't know the mind of God, he didn't know God would intervene to stop that.

Perhaps we also don't know the mind of God and therefore can't fully understand this verse (without further revelation).

We tend to look on these situations with the wisdom of hindsight.  Some things are so obvious.  Why to socialists and communists think that capitalism is evil?  Because we're living in a primarily capitalist system.  So, of COURSE they want socialism.  It would take care of so many problems!

No.

Satan was being guided by a set of incorrect principles.  Therefore, he predicted a lot of incorrect outcomes.  What they were exactly?  Well, we don't know since the storyline we have is largely metaphorical.  If we had the literal history, I believe it would fill a volume larger than The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.  So, I'm grateful for the concise nature of metaphors.

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

If one thinks about it, Satan did not lie in the garden. 

How about this?

Quote

You shall not surely die.

There are other lines in the temple that are not found in scriptures which also contain lies told by serpent.

[Jersey Boy]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:50 PM, laronius said:

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

The interpretation I've heard in regards to the underlined part is that Satan did not realize that God planned for Adam and Eve to fall so Satan was really just playing into God's hands. 

If that is correct, does that mean the fall was not explained in the council in heaven? And what did he think Jehovah's role in all this was? 

If you don't think that is correct, what do you think it refers to?

The following verses found in Alma 12 appear to be particularly applicable to this situation. Apparently it’s possible for a man to possess some degree of the knowledge of God through inspiration from the Almighty, but if that man hardens his heart against the knowledge of God he has thus far received, and continues to remain in that hardened state of mind without remorse of conscience and repentance, he will eventually forget what he once knew in what appears to be a state of spiritual amnesia. It seems that once the spirit of revelation is lost through rebellion, clarity of thought ends and all that remains to be perceived and understood emanates from a bottomless pit of lies and distortions of truth.

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

Edited August 29, 2024 by Jersey Boy

[Vort]

On 8/25/2024 at 5:50 AM, laronius said:

Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

The interpretation I've heard in regards to the underlined part is that Satan did not realize that God planned for Adam and Eve to fall so Satan was really just playing into God's hands. 

If that is correct, does that mean the fall was not explained in the council in heaven? And what did he think Jehovah's role in all this was? 

If you don't think that is correct, what do you think it refers to?

A natural inference is that the Fall had already been carefully explained and planned out, not only in the present case for our Earth but for worlds before. Satan's stroke of genius, as he supposed, was that he would throw a wrench into the works by introducing the Fall out of sequence. Ha! Gotcha, Father! Now you're playing by MY rules! Unfortunately for the serpent, Father had foreseen and planned for this eventuality.

As depicted in Genesis and in the temple, Satan reminds me strongly of many Hollywood actors, who present a smooth and attractive façade to mask their unending malevolence and hatred. God forbid that we who call ourselves Saints be deceived by such.

[Vort]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:14 AM, mikbone said:

He intentionally deceived both Adam and Eve in order to do harm.  He acted out of enmity.

You could also say that God provided incomplete disclosure.  But His intentions were good and actions were motivated by love.

God's policy has always been and will always be that knowledge is given to any who sincerely ask for it and who have prepared themselves to receive that knowledge and live by it.

[Vort]

On 8/25/2024 at 6:20 PM, laronius said:

You have provided much to chew on, though I will specifically address your last point of Satan's arrogance. I have often wondered, and I know others have as well, about how Satan thought he could prevail against God in the premortal world. He clearly isn't stupid. But there had to be something, even if mistaken, that made him think he stood a chance. It's very possible that this lack of understanding in the garden is a continuation of his original rebellion.

Satan may indeed be very smart in the carnal sense, but as Elder Bruce R. McConkie made clear, he lacks the least spark of intelligence.