Ignorance and Faith

[laronius]

Does

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Teach us anything about 

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

Does

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Teach us anything about 

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

I think the two scriptures are compatible in that knowledge opposes ignorance. We are saved in Christ, not ignorance.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, laronius said:

Does

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Teach us anything about 

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

D&C 131:5 teaches us a lot about D&C 131:6.

Edited April 26 by Vort

[zil2]

You cannot be saved without knowing you're being saved.

You cannot be saved until you have learned all that you need to know as a participant in that process.

The mysteries of God are nothing more or less than knowledge.

Those who inherit the celestial kingdom will eventually gain all the knowledge which God now has.

Man cannot be saved in ignorance.

That said, I believe, in large part because of Lectures on Faith, that there are two kinds of faith, only one of which is made "dormant" by knowledge.

[Traveler]

It is not by faith alone but rather by faith in Jesus Christ that we hold to the iron rod to obtain the Tree of Life.  In essence, it is by faith that we obtain knowledge.  Jesus explained it this way – John 8:31-32

Quote

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

The Traveler

[Ironhold]

7 hours ago, laronius said:

Does

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Teach us anything about 

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Look at it this way.

IRL, I'm an entertainment writer. 

I don't have any sort of training or education in the arts; I was actually training for a career in insurance when the 2008 recession happened and I had to remake myself a few times. 

However, I've been a big fan of movies & "escapist" entertainment all my life, to the point that even before I got started I'd consumed enough content to have a pretty fair reference pool of what was or wasn't worthwhile. I had also spent well over a decade teaching myself about the larger entertainment industry as I participated in internet forums and other sites dedicated to various forms of entertainment and specific franchises. 

I don't have a "perfect" knowledge in that sense, but I know more than the average person and can properly evaluate a given work on its merits. 

[laronius]

21 hours ago, zil2 said:

 

That said, I believe, in large part because of Lectures on Faith, that there are two kinds of faith, only one of which is made "dormant" by knowledge.

This taps into the potential issue that arises from these doctrine. On the one hand the scriptures appear to teach that faith must at some point yield to knowledge to yield it's full fruit, such as:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

But we also  have Joseph Smith making statements such as it by faith that God essentially creates and governs the universe (not sure how omniscience plays into that).

So perhaps the ignorance referred to is ignorance of the truth only and that there is an aspect of faith that must persist even with the acquisition of knowledge.

That word "dormant" may also be something worth pondering on as well.

Edited Sunday at 01:59 PM by laronius

[laronius]

21 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is not by faith alone but rather by faith in Jesus Christ that we hold to the iron rod to obtain the Tree of Life.  In essence, it is by faith that we obtain knowledge.  Jesus explained it this way – John 8:31-32

 

The Traveler

It makes me wonder. The light of the gospel is not shelf stable. It must be continually fed otherwise it is lost. Is that an eternal principle or a result of the fallen existence we find ourselves in? If eternal, is faith required in the eternities to maintain exaltation?

[zil2]

3 hours ago, laronius said:

But we also  have Joseph Smith making statements such as it by faith that God essentially creates and governs the universe (not sure how omniscience plays into that).

The wording of this portion suggests it's based on Hebrews 11:3 (I'll bet it's even linked - I'll go look)... Yes. Here's the relevant bit of Lectures...

Quote

13.As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, 11:3 --

14."Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

15.By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him.

But look at the wording in Hebrews.  Is it saying: "[We understand through faith] that the worlds were framed by the word of God"?  Or is it saying: "We understand that [through faith the worlds were framed by the word of God]"?  That is, is it our understanding that happens through faith (a few Bible translations take pains to phrase it so this is the only interpretation), or was it the framing of worlds that happened through faith?  (And it could be both!)

Is #15 the explanation, given by revelation, or is #15 a conclusion from a misunderstanding of the verse in question?

Regardless, the idea is that faith is both [belief in the unknown sufficient to drive action toward making the unknown known by experience] and [acting in the certain belief that what you know will produce the intended result].

The first is designed to gain knowledge based on hope.  The second is designed to produce results based on knowledge.  Our faith teaches us of God (sure, it may do stuff, but it really brings us knowledge, as described in Alma's analogy).  God's faith produces results - it makes things, it saves people, it carries out plans.  That the end is known (assumed, without doubt?) doesn't alter that it's faith in the surety of the end that produces the action...

Or something like that.

Edited Sunday at 05:27 PM by zil2
I should not be allowed to rush a reply before church!

[laronius]

16 hours ago, Ironhold said:

 

I don't have a "perfect" knowledge in that sense, but I know more than the average person and can properly evaluate a given work on its merits. 

This made me think of this:

Alma 7:12 ...he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things...

There's a difference between knowledge we are taught and knowledge we acquire by experience. I don't know what exactly the Savior experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane but it was sufficient for Him to relate to everything we experience in life and that was important to Him.

 

[laronius]

36 minutes ago, zil2 said:

 

But look at the wording in Hebrews.  Is it saying: "[We understand through faith] that the worlds were framed by the word of God"?  Or is it saying: "We understand that [through faith the worlds were framed by the word of God"?  That is, is it our understanding that happens through faith (a few Bible translations take pains to phrase it so this is the only interpretation), or was it the framing of worlds that happened through faith?  (And it could be both!)

And is it saying that it is God who exercised faith to frame the worlds or was it the faith in God as exercised by everything else that framed the worlds?

[Carborendum]

On 4/26/2025 at 9:19 AM, laronius said:

Does

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Teach us anything about 

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

We "know" things through faith.  Although it is not a "perfect knowledge."  And "ignorance" is not what you think it means.

Look at the footnote on the word "ignorance"

Quote

7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

 -- Malachi 2:7-8

Ignorance (at least in this context) appears to mean:

• Misinterpreting/corrupting the scriptures and true doctrine.
• Having faith in that which does not save.
• Applying the commandments incorrectly.

Edited Monday at 01:21 PM by Carborendum

[Anddenex]

On 4/26/2025 at 8:19 AM, laronius said:

Does

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Teach us anything about 

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

The answer to this question is yes -- yes, this scripture does help us more further understand that without faith it is impossible to please God, and that we will not be able to claim ignorance and still be saved.

I often think of agnostics and atheists when reading these verses. An agnostic, after death, will ultimately claim ignorance after death, "If I had 'known' (temporal evidence) I would have believed." And will expect to be saved without pleasing God through faith. Once they realize they outsmarted themselves they then will experience the gnashing of teeth.

I also find this verse interesting because it ultimately deals with the after life, and not our mortal life. There have been many of our brothers and sisters who have perished without knowing who Jesus Christ is, thus salvation was never declared unto them. Ultimately, they are ignorant, and upon these the Lord's mercy is extended (Mosiah 15:24). In their mortal life they were ignorant, but the gospel will be preached unto them in the spirit world -- so ultimately -- no man/woman is saved in ignorance.

[CV75]

On 4/27/2025 at 9:55 AM, laronius said:

This taps into the potential issue that arises from these doctrine. On the one hand the scriptures appear to teach that faith must at some point yield to knowledge to yield it's full fruit, such as:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

But we also  have Joseph Smith making statements such as it by faith that God essentially creates and governs the universe (not sure how omniscience plays into that).

So perhaps the ignorance referred to is ignorance of the truth only and that there is an aspect of faith that must persist even with the acquisition of knowledge.

That word "dormant" may also be something worth pondering on as well.

I think faith (which can be considered foreknowledge) and knowledge (which can be considered confirmed faith) are two aspects of the same thing. Existence is  experienced through the application of action and intelligence (the combination being agency) within the sphere that God has placed truth, and a fulness of experience would then be a fullness of truth (D&C 93: 30, 31; 26, 27). All of God's children, whatever sphere in which He has placed them, will have this opportunity, an idea I take from Acts 17: 26, 27. (that last recognizes @Anddenex's comment about haply finding God in the spirit world  ).

Edited Thursday at 10:08 PM by CV75

[CV75]

On 4/27/2025 at 10:56 AM, laronius said:

This made me think of this:

Alma 7:12 ...he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things...

There's a difference between knowledge we are taught and knowledge we acquire by experience. I don't know what exactly the Savior experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane but it was sufficient for Him to relate to everything we experience in life and that was important to Him.

 

D&C 93: 1 - 20 speaks of the grace Jesus received step by step through His entire life experience as He fulfilled all righteousness by faith (verse 17 refers to this as "continued from grace to grace" -- a practical expression of godly faith, which we need to develop and exercise) and obedience, until He received a fulness. The sense I get is that He began this process "before the world was" (verse 7).

[JohnsonJones]

Faith can also be seen as believing something that is true.  In that same light, if something has not occurred, but you believe it will, and it will occur as you think it will, and then you act upon that belief, then this is faith.

A prime example.  Your arm is on a desk relaxing.  You believe that you can lift your arm up.  It has not happened yet, but you have enough experience and reliably feel that you can lift your arm if you wish to.  You then lift your arm.  You have practiced your faith.

You may do this without even thinking about it, and yet, if it has not happened, but you basically know it will, it is still faith, as it is something you believe will happen that has not actually occurred.

In this same manner, the Lord can act in faith to make worlds and to enact various ideas that he fashions via his power and authority.