Traveler Posted June 11 Report Posted June 11 On 6/9/2025 at 7:15 PM, Phoenix_person said: BTW, remember that policy blueprint from the Heritage Foundation that Trump and the entire GOP tried to convince us wasn't a consequential part of their platform? The one that we were called conspiracy theorists for talking about until we were blue in the face? Well, one of the main authors of P2025 is now the head of OMB and an online tracker has us at 42% implementation. Page 555 recommends mobilizing the National Guard to assist with border security (nothing about Marines, though). I hope you've all read up on it, because it's going to define virtually everything about Trump's second term. https://www.project2025.observer/ What do you suggest when foreign interests are involved in planned and executing destruction of property (federal, state and private), endangering the life of citizens (both officers of the law as well as innocent citizens), looting of property that causes citizens to lose their businesses – local law enforcement openly states that they are overwhelmed and local authority refuse to intercede or call for backup? How much of LA has to burn to the ground before you will say – enough, it is time to make a change? The Traveler mirkwood and Carborendum 2 Quote
LDSGator Posted June 11 Report Posted June 11 31 minutes ago, Traveler said: What do you suggest when foreign interests are involved in planned and executing destruction of property (federal, state and private), endangering the life of citizens (both officers of the law as well as innocent citizens), looting of property that causes citizens to lose their businesses – local law enforcement openly states that they are overwhelmed and local authority refuse to intercede or call for backup? How much of LA has to burn to the ground before you will say – enough, it is time to make a change? The Traveler If you open the door to Marines being deployed to address these issues, you better be ready to keep your mouth shut when a democrat does it. This is a slippery slope. Phoenix_person 1 Quote
Traveler Posted June 11 Report Posted June 11 2 hours ago, LDSGator said: If you open the door to Marines being deployed to address these issues, you better be ready to keep your mouth shut when a democrat does it. This is a slippery slope. When property is being damaged, lives of las officers and citizens are being threatened (physically not by verbal), law enforcement is being overwhelmed, and the local governing body is ignoring federal law – like when the Democratic president called up military troops to assist during civil rights and integration. How soon we forget. However, our prophetic scriptures of the restoration do indicate that violence will abound on this continent. I do suspect that there is a trend. The Traveler Quote
pam Posted June 11 Report Posted June 11 I don't know if this has been mentioned, but President George H.W. Bush ordered Marines into Los Angeles back in 1992 after the Rodney King verdict. Quote
Phoenix_person Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 (edited) On 6/11/2025 at 3:52 PM, Traveler said: What do you suggest when foreign interests are involved in planned and executing destruction of property (federal, state and private), What foreign interests? Immigrants are the backbone of the LA community. ICE isn't just going after criminals. They've started snatching people out of their homes, jobs, immigration court hearings, etc. DHS has been playing very loose with the civil liberties of people detained, and both Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller have insinuated that they could go a step further by susending habeus corpus.. When you're deporting people with no due process, public trust in immigration enforcement will erode pretty fast. Communities will come together and defend themselves. This is starting to morph from protests to active resistance. A lot of Americans have reached the conclusion that fascism has arrived in America, and fascism is never removed without violence. We may be approaching the very circumstances the 2A was meant for, and it seems the 2A enthusiasts are determined to sit this one out because it's brown people being tread on. To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong), there's been no looting or retail stores torched. The anger seems to be being directed exclusively towards agents and property of government. The only exception that I'm aware of is the Google-owned robicabs torched in LA. I don't condone that, but I'm also not going to weep over spilled Google IP. I think they can afford new ones. I saw a great quote recently about the unpredictable nature of resistance movements. "It's like yelling at water about the proper way to boil." I wonder how some people in this forum would have reacted to the Boston Tea Party in real time. Would you have grabbed your muskets? Or would you have scolded the revolutionaries for causing a fuss and destroying property? When I was a kid learning about the Revolutionary War, I was puzzled by the fact that some of the colonists stayed loyal to Britain during the war (or at the very least didn't support the Revolution). After all these years, I think I finally get it. Trump won last year in part because he got more of the Latin American vote than most GOP candidates receive. I think it's safe to say that future GOP candidates won't have the same fortune. There's a right way to go after criminals, and this isn't it. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article308111995.html On 6/11/2025 at 3:52 PM, Traveler said: How much of LA has to burn to the ground before you will say – enough, it is time to make a change? 99% of LA was just another Wednesday today. This past weekend's violence was limited to one or two small areas, which is the whole reason why Newsome was so strongly against federal interference. The media excels at making these things look worse than they are because they go where the smoke and tear gas is. The reality is that LA is geographically massive and most Angelenos haven't been affected by recent events at all. It's just some nuisance going on in another part of the city. Edited Friday at 01:11 PM by Phoenix_person Backroads 1 Quote
Phoenix_person Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 (edited) Speaking of 1776, here's a sampling of the stated reasons why the colonies revolted against Britain: He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences: For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. Edited June 12 by Phoenix_person LDSGator 1 Quote
mirkwood Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 Google search, first story to pop up. https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/multiple-los-angeles-businesses-ransacked-during-anti-ice-riots I don't think you tried very hard NeuroTypical 1 Quote
Phoenix_person Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 20 minutes ago, mirkwood said: Google search, first story to pop up. https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/multiple-los-angeles-businesses-ransacked-during-anti-ice-riots I don't think you tried very hard Fair, but at the end if the day I value people over property. A few bad apples aren't enough to make me lose sight of the bigger picture. Quote
Carborendum Posted June 12 Author Report Posted June 12 10 hours ago, Phoenix_person said: Fair, but at the end if the day I value people over property. A few bad apples aren't enough to make me lose sight of the bigger picture. 55% Phoenix_person 1 Quote
NeuroTypical Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 (edited) 13 hours ago, Phoenix_person said: The only exception that I'm aware of is the Google-owned robicabs torched in LA. I don't condone that, but I'm also not going to weep over spilled Google IP. I think they can afford new ones. I suppose this is one unbridgeable divide between me and thee, @Phoenix_person. If lawless violence and fire and destructive acts from people I consider "my people" were heading towards something you value, I would use whatever legal means at my disposal to stop them. And I would weep if my side was successful at criminal acts of burning things to ashes. Even if I despised whatever you were valuing. Even if I thought the world might be better without whatever you were valuing. I suppose it's nice that you're not out there actively condoning and supporting it, I guess. Edited June 12 by NeuroTypical zil2 1 Quote
Ironhold Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 14 hours ago, Phoenix_person said: To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong), there's been no looting or retail stores torched. The anger seems to be being directed exclusively towards agents and property of government. The only exception that I'm aware of is the Google-owned robicabs torched in LA. I don't condone that, but I'm also not going to weep over spilled Google IP. I think they can afford new ones. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-the-waymo-car-fires-in-recent-los-angeles-protests-caused-the-robotaxis/ It was Waymo, which branched off of Google a while back. It's my understanding that at least five vehicles were torched before Waymo sent a recall order pulling all units out of the area to protect them. Yes, that article is from Scientific American, which should explain how big a deal it is. And yes, there are various ostensible reports of looting going on, which is part of why I fear we might see a return of the "Rooftop Koreans" or otherwise see vigilante actions. As it is, last night someone made the claim on Twitter that a person was going around to the vehicles driven by protestors and putting pro-Trump stickers on those vehicles in the hopes that it would cause the protestors to torch each other's cars. Phoenix_person 1 Quote
Phoenix_person Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 (edited) 50 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: I suppose this is one unbridgeable divide between me and thee, @Phoenix_person. If violence and fire and destructive acts from people I consider "my people" were heading towards something you value, I would use whatever legal means at my disposal to stop them. And I would weep if my side was successful at criminal acts of burning things to ashes. Even if I despised whatever you were valuing. Even if I thought the world might be better without whatever you were valuing. I value human life and human dignity above all else. I value the laws that are designed to prevent governments from abusing their authority. I value those things more than I value my local Starbucks or Target. I value them more than a self-driving Taxi. I value them more than my $700 guitar, my car, and every other material thing I own. Hope that helps. As I've said many times here and elsewhere, I don't condone violence or destruction of private property. Ever. It's not behavior that I would ever engage in or encourage my peers to engage in. But in times like these, when our president is trying his hardest to overreach executive authority at the expense of entire communities of immigrants, I choose to focus my anger at the oppressive actions of our government, not the reaction to it. Nothing that happened in the summer of 2020 made me angrier than what happened to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. Nothing that's happening in LA makes me angrier than seeing people ripped from their families and deported without due process. I don't care what their legal status is, it's inhumane. We're creating a police state over the issue of whether or not people have the right piece of paper to live here. A lot of those people already fled violence and oppression in places like Venezuela. They are the downtrodden that your religion tells you to care for. It's impossible to deny that at this point. I understand that a lot of reprehensible criminals make it over here too. I get that. But why are we punishing entire immigrant communities for the actions of criminals? We managed to catch people like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson without using scorched earth tactics. Why is this justified against immigrant families whose only crime was trying to find safe haven from violence and death? Criminals aside, because we're way past DHS only going after criminals, what does your faith tell you about what's happening to immigrant communities? Because a lot of the Mormons I grew up with are with me on this one, including both of my Reagan Conservative parents. At what point does compassion trump unwavering devotion to law and order? I'm not saying you have to choose one, but there has to be a point where enough is enough, right? Otherwise you folks wouldn't be so gung ho about the 2nd Amendment. Edited June 12 by Phoenix_person Quote
Phoenix_person Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 5 minutes ago, Ironhold said: As it is, last night someone made the claim on Twitter that a person was going around to the vehicles driven by protestors and putting pro-Trump stickers on those vehicles in the hopes that it would cause the protestors to torch each other's cars. Unsurpsrising, if true. It was confirmed that the infamous "umbrella man" who set the first fire in Minneapolis in 2020 was a white supremacist and a member of Hell's Angels. Fox News even reported on it. They're playing straight out of J Edgar Hoover's playbook from the 60s: "discredit, disrupt, and destroy". https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-umbrella-man-autozone-fire-hells-angels-police Quote
Phoenix_person Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 34 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said: because we're way past DHS only going after criminals Even Trump can't pretend this isn't the case anymore. And once again, Biden had a very good immigration bill that was killed by Trump. 🙄 Quote
NeuroTypical Posted June 12 Report Posted June 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said: I value human life and human dignity above all else. I value the laws that are designed to prevent governments from abusing their authority. I value those things more than I value my local Starbucks or Target. I value them more than a self-driving Taxi. I value them more than my $700 guitar, my car, and every other material thing I own. Hope that helps. Me too. We just have different views of how reality works and how to best go about it. The devil always lie in the details. Concepts of "we" and "should" get turned into "government should be allowed to use force in able to" by both of us. Quote Nothing that happened in the summer of 2020 made me angrier than what happened to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. I get it. The left is fueled by emotion far more than the right. There is anger, or sadness, or the tortured cry of a child reacting to a perceived injustice, and therefore "we" "must" do "something". Each one of those words carry a definition and a weight. Left and right have different understandings of what those words should mean, and what started as a unified position of valuing life and human dignity, immediately becomes two divergent and conflicting ways to go about being a good human. Quote Nothing that's happening in LA makes me angrier than seeing people ripped from their families and deported without due process. I don't care what their legal status is, it's inhumane. Yep. Left is emotional, therefore laws and systems and policies and rules no longer matter. The left individual doesn't care. (Source: Phonenix_Person: "I don't care".) There has been perceived injustice. That means something is wrong and must change. Preserving human life and dignity is a function of government, and government must do everything in it's power to preserve life and dignity. Conservatives such as myself start where you start: "human life and dignity is important". But we perceive the world as inherently unfair, full of threats and violence and sadness and trials. And humans are by nature greedy and selfish. Human history is a laughably long loop of people taking power for noble reasons and then becoming corrupt because humans are corruptible. The more power, the more corruption. The largest attempts of government to ensure everyone is treated fairly become the most deadly murderous regimes that end up with human death tolls in the millions. The millions starved in the Ukraine, the purges in Russia and China, the killing fields of Cambodia, none of these come from capitalism. They come from other -isms. So, the best answer is as just a government as you can come up with, people with folks who serve at the behest of those who have elected them, with a constitution which specifies what government can do (protect borders and enforce immigration law), and what it can't do. Checks and balances to ensure power doesn't get too concentrated. Quote We're creating a police state over the issue of whether or not people have the right piece of paper to live here. No, we're enforcing existing immigration laws that were put into place by a government made up of representatives of the people. The political will to do so hasn't existed in our country for a long time, because videos of sad people don't win elections. Now, an election has been won by someone who doesn't care about being re-elected. By majorities of people tired of hearing about people like Laken Riley and Matthew Denice and Ivory Smith and Maverick Martzen and AJ Wise Jr. and Larisha Sharell Thompson and Rachel Morin. Tired of hearing about cartel-fueled violence and drugs in the US. Tired of hearing about how the Biden administration misplaced thousands of trafficked children by doing dumb things. Yeah, there's plenty of blather about MS13 and Tren de Aragua and whatnot, but there is also a lot of fact that this stuff exists and there are monsters among us. Quote A lot of those people already fled violence and oppression in places like Venezuela. They are the downtrodden that your religion tells you to care for. The US has legal ways to enter the country. What's happening right now are for those who have not just cut in line, but bypassed the line completely. It makes it harder for those trying to do things legally. The claim that we must abandon immigration laws because people are fleeing oppression is false on its face. The claim that Mormons who are in favor of imposing just consequences on people who have intentionally broken the law, are somehow going against the dictates of our religion, are nonserious. Born of a lack of critical thought about the importance of immigration laws, and what borders mean. Born of emotion, as you demonstrate above, and not reason. Quote I understand that a lot of reprehensible criminals make it over here too. I get that. But why are we punishing entire immigrant communities for the actions of criminals? We managed to catch people like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson without using scorched earth tactics. "Such tactics": ICE enters an area attempting to serve warrants on known criminals who have done more than just overstay a visa, more than just drive without a license, more than just petty theft because they're hungry. Individuals with records and convictions. These people are, to varying degrees, accepted parts of the communities in which they live. So people get mad and resist, and ICE/HSA/Local authorities start grabbing anyone who is resisting by breaking the law in ways like throwing rocks/bottles/molotovs. When someone with a warrant is found amongst other lawbreakers, they get grabbed too. Family members with legal status are given the choice: You wanna go with deported dude, or stay in the states? Families of illegals are deported together. "Scorched earth tactics" - gimme a break. The cops aren't the ones scorching the earth. People torching Google cars are scorching the earth, being defended by folks who "don't condone" the act, but "don't shed any tears" over it either. I'm emboldened to see the number of legal migrants on social media standing up and being recognized, voicing their support for these tactics. One suggestion I would have for you, is find one of them to argue with. Quote Why is this justified against immigrant families whose only crime was trying to find safe haven from violence and death? Deporting illegal families is justified when they break the law and deportation is one consequence. If you enter the US illegally, it's a federal violation 8 U.S. Code § 1325, which includes entering without proper inspection or making false statements during entry attempts. If you remain in the U.S. unlawfully, you're committing a crime according to 8 U.S. Code § 1182(a)(9). If you remain for more than 180 days but less than one year may face a three-year ban from re-entering the U.S. Those who remain for one year or more may face a ten-year ban. Facts > feelings. Quote Criminals aside, because we're way past DHS only going after criminals, what does your faith tell you about what's happening to immigrant communities? I reject the premise. ICE starts by going after specific individuals. If there's a family of criminal illegal aliens associated with that individual, their crimes are minor, and yet they have committed crimes. The minors in these situations are not criminals, but they have been moved by their parents (or trafficked by traffickers). In these cases, my faith tells me it's best to allow each situation to be determined by what's best for the children, and I believe our laws reflect this. When a whole family is illegal, keep them together as they're deported. When some are and some aren't, you give the legal folks the choice to stay or go with those being deported. That's the most just, humane, fair way to deal with family members who have broken laws that earn the penalty of deportation. My faith tells me that Trump's offer to pay anyone here illegally $1000 to self-deport is just, humane, and more than fair. Hope all this helps. Edited Thursday at 05:52 PM by NeuroTypical Vort and zil2 2 Quote
LDSGator Posted Thursday at 05:52 PM Report Posted Thursday at 05:52 PM Some humor on the subject. Backroads, Vort and Phoenix_person 3 Quote
Phoenix_person Posted Thursday at 07:02 PM Report Posted Thursday at 07:02 PM (edited) 1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said: I get it. The left is fueled by emotion far more than the right. There is anger, or sadness, or the tortured cry of a child reacting to a perceived injustice, and therefore "we" "must" do "something". Each one of those words carry a definition and a weight. Left and right have different understandings of what those words should mean, and what started as a unified position of valuing life and human dignity, immediately becomes two divergent and conflicting ways to go about being a good human. Emotion drives all reform. It always has, from the American Revolution to the Industrial Revolution. People who live under a boot long enough will tend to get very emotional about it when the boot starts to get heavier. You and I are incredibly privileged to have been born on the right side of the right border with the right skin color. The path to leftism starts with trying to understand the plight of those who were not so fortunate, which means studying the parts of history that this administration is trying to erase . You've said in the past that you want all Americans to enjoy the same amount of privilege you enjoy. The path to that isn't always going to smooth and peaceful, as much as we'd both like it to be. 1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said: Yep. Left is emotional, therefore laws and systems and policies and rules no longer matter. The left individual doesn't care. (Source: Phonenix_Person: "I don't care".) There has been perceived injustice. That means something is wrong and must change. "You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask, "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "An unjust law is no law at all." Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. -Martin Luther Kung Jr, in a letter addressed to white liberals who didn't like his "disruptive" protest tactics. 1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said: Conservatives such as myself start where you start: "human life and dignity is important". But we perceive the world as inherently unfair, full of threats and violence and sadness and trials. And humans are by nature greedy and selfish. Human history is a laughably long loop of people taking power for noble reasons and then becoming corrupt because humans are corruptible. The more power, the more corruption. The largest attempts of government to ensure everyone is treated fairly become the most deadly murderous regimes that end up with human death tolls in the millions. The millions starved in the Ukraine, the purges in Russia and China, the killing fields of Cambodia, none of these come from capitalism. They come from other -isms. The reason why you and I will never see eye-to-eye on this is because you seem to believe that the US is immune from the levels of corruption and tyranny that fascilitated many of the 20th Century's worst atrocities, or at the very least that it could never happen in a developed capitalist nation. I don't believe any of that is true, and the past 6 months have made me believe it far less. 1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said: The claim that Mormons who are in favor of imposing just consequences on people who have intentionally broken the law, are somehow going against the dictates of our religion, are nonserious. Born of a lack of critical thought about the importance of immigration laws, and what borders mean. Born of emotion, as you demonstrate above, and not reason. I guess that'll happen when you treat mortal laws as absolute and infallible. 1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said: I reject the premise. ICE starts by going after specific individuals. If there's a family of criminal illegal aliens associated with that individual, their crimes are minor, and yet they have committed crimes. The minors in these situations are not criminals, but they have been moved by their parents (or trafficked by traffickers). In these cases, my faith tells me it's best to allow each situation to be determined by what's best for the children, and I believe our laws reflect this. When a whole family is illegal, keep them together as they're deported. When some are and some aren't, you give the legal folks the choice to stay or go with those being deported. That's the most just, humane, fair way to deal with family members who have broken laws that earn the penalty of deportation. If you remain in the U.S. unlawfully, you're committing a crime according to 8 U.S. Code § 1182(a)(9). If you remain for more than 180 days but less than one year may face a three-year ban from re-entering the U.S. Those who remain for one year or more may face a ten-year ban. Facts > feelings. The crux of my position is that our immigration laws, well-intended as they may have been, have failed. Both parties share plenty of blame. However we got here, we're here now, in a situation where millions of migrants are undocumented in this country. Past administrations have taken steps to legitimize the immigrants who pass the sniff test while we work on securing the border. I get that your side hates that, but it's a far more humane solution than just sending them all back at once. And just because a Democrat does it doesn't make it illegal. It may not be ideal, but it's not unreasonable given the systemic failings that got us here. 1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said: My faith tells me that Trump's offer to pay anyone here illegally $1000 to self-deport is just, humane, and more than fair. Hope all this helps. How will $1000 help them when they're sent back to authoritarian regimes? BTW some of those regimes were propped up by us because coffee and bananas don't grow in most parts of the US. The horrors of the USSR and East Asia weren't created by capitalism, but a lot of the horrors south of our border were. You don't get the 1.6 Billion pounds of coffee consumed in the US without bankrolling tyranny in the countries where coffee is grown. Capitalism has just as much blood on its hands as the other -isms. More, actually. Capitalism gave us the British empire, the slave trade, and foreign sweatshops. Edited Thursday at 07:23 PM by Phoenix_person Quote
Traveler Posted Thursday at 07:26 PM Report Posted Thursday at 07:26 PM 18 hours ago, Phoenix_person said: What foreign interests? Immigrants are the backbone of the LA community. ICE isn't just going after criminals....... There is a long list of criminal syndicates with foreign ties operating here in the USA. Many from the past, such as the Cosa Nostra, have gone more underground. There are several Mexican transnational criminal organizations (TCOs) that pose significant threats in the US. And there are other groups from Latan America, Asia and Eastern Europe. There are even indications of organizations from Africa. In 1970 the RICO (Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act) was passed to fight organized crime. If we include RICO with international ties, we will find that with the efforts of globalization in today’s landscape that the vast majority of RICO problems in the USA do have some level of international reach. It is not uncommon for criminal TCOs to have organizational reach inside our prison systems and there is significant evidence that among their most prized targets are judges and elected officials. It is estimated that in Mexico 80% of their judges and elected officials have ties to criminal organizations – especially drug cartels. No one that is not a US citizen has a right to enter, visit or in any way come to the USA. Even if they enter by any designated legal process – they do not have a right to stay. Their time spent here is a privilege that can be granted or removed without legal due process. All that is necessary to be proven is that an individual is established as a non-citizen. The Secretary of State has the authority to cancel any visa or work permit for any reason they wish. I would be surprised if any non-citizen in the USA has any legal ground to be here if they do not have a legal visa or work permit. I am not sure what due process is necessary to deport a foreign national from the USA. In all my travels I have never encountered any country that I could stay in, if any legal official on any whim decided to cancel whatever permissions I had and expel me from their country. At my age I do take some prescription medication. Forgetting to register all my meds or even making a spelling error is likely to end my visit quickly. Our Homeland Security has said they are going after mainly anyone involved in RICO criminal activity but if they encounter any undocumented (illegal) immigrant while going after criminals all will be deported. Undocumented immigrants have more to fear from criminals and being associated with criminals than they do with our Homeland Security and ICE. The last question – how can we determine what politicians and judges (or even media operatives) are assisting international drug and other criminal activity organization? Quote 99% of LA was just another Wednesday today. This past weekend's violence was limited to one or two small areas, which is the whole reason why Newsome was so strongly against federal interference. The media excels at making these things look worse than they are because they go where the smoke and tear gas is. The reality is that LA is geographically massive and most Angelenos haven't been affected by recent events at all. It's just some nuisance going on in another part of the city. Last point - officials in LA seem to have difficulty preventing and putting out fires. It is so bad that most major insurance companies will not provide fire coverage for homes or businesses anywhere in or near LA. This is not a problem that can be blamed on Trump or even the republican political party. The problem of fires in LA are strictly onerous to one political party that dominates the LA and the California state. Isn’t it about time to change that? The Traveler Quote
Phoenix_person Posted Thursday at 08:15 PM Report Posted Thursday at 08:15 PM 26 minutes ago, Traveler said: There is a long list of criminal syndicates with foreign ties operating here in the USA. Many from the past, such as the Cosa Nostra, have gone more underground. There are several Mexican transnational criminal organizations (TCOs) that pose significant threats in the US. And there are other groups from Latan America, Asia and Eastern Europe. There are even indications of organizations from Africa. In 1970 the RICO (Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act) was passed to fight organized crime. If we include RICO with international ties, we will find that with the efforts of globalization in today’s landscape that the vast majority of RICO problems in the USA do have some level of international reach. It is not uncommon for criminal TCOs to have organizational reach inside our prison systems and there is significant evidence that among their most prized targets are judges and elected officials. It is estimated that in Mexico 80% of their judges and elected officials have ties to criminal organizations – especially drug cartels. No one that is not a US citizen has a right to enter, visit or in any way come to the USA. Even if they enter by any designated legal process – they do not have a right to stay. Their time spent here is a privilege that can be granted or removed without legal due process. All that is necessary to be proven is that an individual is established as a non-citizen. The Secretary of State has the authority to cancel any visa or work permit for any reason they wish. I would be surprised if any non-citizen in the USA has any legal ground to be here if they do not have a legal visa or work permit. I am not sure what due process is necessary to deport a foreign national from the USA. In all my travels I have never encountered any country that I could stay in, if any legal official on any whim decided to cancel whatever permissions I had and expel me from their country. At my age I do take some prescription medication. Forgetting to register all my meds or even making a spelling error is likely to end my visit quickly. Our Homeland Security has said they are going after mainly anyone involved in RICO criminal activity but if they encounter any undocumented (illegal) immigrant while going after criminals all will be deported. Undocumented immigrants have more to fear from criminals and being associated with criminals than they do with our Homeland Security and ICE. The last question – how can we determine what politicians and judges (or even media operatives) are assisting international drug and other criminal activity organization? I'm aware of the criminal organizations operating in the US. I spent most of my adult life in one of their Texas strongholds. I don't buy that cartels are driving the violence in LA. If that were true, Saturday would have been far more violent. 26 minutes ago, Traveler said: Last point - officials in LA seem to have difficulty preventing and putting out fires. It is so bad that most major insurance companies will not provide fire coverage for homes or businesses anywhere in or near LA. This is not a problem that can be blamed on Trump or even the republican political party. Interesting you should bring that up, because our southern neighbors in Mexico played a role in fighting those fires. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mexico-sends-firefighters-california-help-with-raging-blazes-2025-01-11/ 33 minutes ago, Traveler said: The problem of fires in LA are strictly onerous to one political party that dominates the LA and the California state. Isn’t it about time to change that? It's not (strictly) a party issue, it's a corruption issue, and we see it in all of our biggest cities. The parodox of giant blue cities is that their leadership is often massively unpopular with blue voters. Look at people like Eric Adams, and Cuomo before him. You'll be extremely hard-pressed to find a middle- or working-class Dem voter in NYC who doesn't hate both of them. They didn't get into office by kissing babies and knocking on doors. They got into office by kissing the right posteriors and keeping the right bank accounts full. And if you think Trump's GOP is the solution to that, I have bad news for you. Trump doesn't care about law and order. He cares about loyalty, regardless of party. Kiss his ring and you can get away with murder, or at least assaulting a police officer. Quote
NeuroTypical Posted Saturday at 04:01 PM Report Posted Saturday at 04:01 PM On 6/12/2025 at 1:02 PM, Phoenix_person said: Emotion drives all reform. It always has, from the American Revolution to the Industrial Revolution. This attempt to justify violence and the destruction of property is not persuasive. The fact that any group of humans contains elements that can be whipped into a fervor and pointed at a target, does not mean that the LA riots were some sort of moral thing. On 6/12/2025 at 1:02 PM, Phoenix_person said: You and I are incredibly privileged Liberal guilt over privilege, demonizing the word and forming it into a weapon to be used against those who have it, is also not persuasive. My people were once forced out of their homes at gunpoint and made to trek across the plains in a winter that killed 1 out of every 12 refugees. My wife's ancestry includes a slave (the little Indian girl bought by a family of Saints who had settled in Utah), and slaveowners (the members of the various Ute tribes who raided each other for children to sell to the Saints). Closer to the present, my grandfather lost everything in the great depression, and left my young teen dad as the oldest male to care for a family while he rode the rails looking for work. My Dad & his mom and siblings moved a lot trying to find food - Utah, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico - literally starving at times - only potatoes for days on end at times - only one pair of clothes. And I was once forced at knifepoint to recant my religion. I was once pushed against a set of lockers by a guy who showed me his knife and said "I cut mormons - are you a mormon?" Me, my dad, my grandpa: 3 generations of honest law-abiders, striving for a better future. They had to deal with those who tried to cut corners and break laws back then too. There have always been people who figure the laws shouldn't apply to them. People willing to do violence to get what they want. No, you don't get to use the word "privilege" against me, pal. The United States of America is one of, if not the greatest nations out there when we're measuring who can work their way into earned privilege. Again, you're as familiar with social media as I am - I suggest again that you go find the ever-growing numbers of legal immigrants who are supporting the deportation efforts, and go argue with them. On 6/12/2025 at 1:02 PM, Phoenix_person said: You've said in the past that you want all Americans to enjoy the same amount of privilege you enjoy. The path to that isn't always going to smooth and peaceful, as much as we'd both like it to be. I've said it before and I'll say it here again - you and yours haven't learned a single thing since T took the election with nationwide gains in almost every category. It's not that T and the cops won't stand for it, Americans won't stand for it. Your lawlessness and rioting will be put down, and every thrown brick turns into another 1000 Americans supporting more deportations. Your basic attitude of "I don't condone it but I won't shed any tears over it, and besides, it's useful for change" is widespread across the political left. And y'all seem hell-bent on losing the next decade's worth of elections over the issue. Go for it. On 6/12/2025 at 1:02 PM, Phoenix_person said: -Martin Luther Kung Jr, in a letter addressed to white liberals who didn't like his "disruptive" protest tactics. Yeah, MLK was a heck of a guy. Guess what else he said: "Every summer we are going to have this kind of vigorous protest. My hope is that it will be nonviolent. I'm hoping we can avoid riots because riots are selfish and socially destructive." "I'm here to say tonight that if every negro in the United States turns against nonviolence I'm gonna stand up as a lone voice and say this is the wrong way!" "The basic idea that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to the negro in his struggle for freedom and justice. I think for the negro to turn to violence would be both impractical and immoral." Again, once the fires start, once the protests turn into riots, once the rocks or bricks or water bottles are thrown - you lose. Especially after the riots of 2021 are recent enough in people's memories, and the results were basically failed cultural reform efforts like DEI and Kendi's stupid antiracism. On 6/12/2025 at 1:02 PM, Phoenix_person said: The reason why you and I will never see eye-to-eye on this is because you seem to believe that the US is immune from the levels of corruption and tyranny that fascilitated many of the 20th Century's worst atrocities, or at the very least that it could never happen in a developed capitalist nation. So, the various -isms have had what, 150 years to work across the planet? There are -isms that have resulted in the worst atrocities, and there is capitalism. The phrase is "the least horrible choice". When paired with a representative republic and a constitution which mandates a limited government, separation of powers, and the notion of govt by consent, there have been zero worst atrocities. Holocaust? Nazis (aka the National Socialist German Workers' Party. The "Nationalsozialists".) The Armenian Genocide that killed 1.5 million? A coup that paired a dictatorship with ethnic nationalism. The Rwandan Genocide that killed around .8 million? Ethnic genocide carried out by a government that engaged in state control of the economy that favored the Hutus over the Tutsis. The Cambodian Genocide and it's almost 2 million dead? Communists seeking to transform Cambodia into a classless society based on their interpretation of Marxist-Leninist ideology. The Great Chinese Famine that killed somewhere between 15-45 million? A result of the Great Leap Forward. More Communists trying to transform China from an agrarian society into a socialist society through rapid industrialization and collectivization. The Soviet Gulags that killed between 1.5 and 2 million? The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics. The 1-2 million deaths in India starting in the late '40's might be your best chance lay stuff like this at the feet of a developed capitalist nation. Britain is maybe 40% to blame, initiating the partition and then granting everyone their freedom and bailing on the whole scene as all the factions that had been kept at bay descended on each other. Ghandi tried hard, and he wasn't the only person preaching nonviolence, but it wasn't in the cards in that place. But the US isn't 1940's India. It's not like anyone is howling for blood (except for the growing numbers of leftists supportive of executing CEOs and assassinating presidents and burning down the system in the name of fighting fascism and racism). But apart from them, it's not like the white christian businessmen or McD's employee are howling to snuff out immigrants. We get to be a nation of laws, governed by consent of the people, with an executive branch enforcing laws passed by the legislative branch, and the judicial branch either giving T the green light or a smack down, depending on the particulars. Porous borders are a threat to this nation. Illegal immigration chews up lives and creates misery in the people seeking a better life. Human trafficking sucks. Child sex slavery sucks. Bad actors using open borders to smuggle humans, drugs, weapons across it must stop. Tall walls, wide well-guarded gates, robust immigration policies, humanitarian efforts, and punishing offenders. All of that is just, moral, and good. Win or lose your next election as you see fit. I don't see defending temper tantrums and yelling about privilege as a path to it, but you do you. mirkwood, Jedi_Nephite, zil2 and 1 other 2 2 Quote
LDSGator Posted Saturday at 04:37 PM Report Posted Saturday at 04:37 PM 6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: I've said it before and I'll say it here again - you and yours haven't learned a single thing since T took the election with nationwide gains in almost every category The left hasn’t learned that lesson since 1968 when Nixon rode the law and order train to victory. Quote
NeuroTypical Posted Saturday at 04:55 PM Report Posted Saturday at 04:55 PM 53 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: No, you don't get to use the word "privilege" against me, pal. Actually, I take that back. I will humbly accept a lecture on privilege from the vet who bears literal outward and inward scars gained during service to this country. Just not from the leftie activist. Tell you what: I wish you a happy flag day, or a happy no kings day. Pick the one you'd like to receive. LDSGator, mirkwood and Phoenix_person 2 1 Quote
NeuroTypical Posted Saturday at 08:31 PM Report Posted Saturday at 08:31 PM On 6/12/2025 at 1:02 PM, Phoenix_person said: You've said in the past that you want all Americans to enjoy the same amount of privilege you enjoy. The path to that isn't always going to smooth and peaceful, as much as we'd both like it to be. I guess not. https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/minnesota-shootings-manhunt-06-14-25 mirkwood 1 Quote
Phoenix_person Posted Monday at 06:55 PM Report Posted Monday at 06:55 PM On 6/14/2025 at 4:31 PM, NeuroTypical said: I guess not. https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/minnesota-shootings-manhunt-06-14-25 It turns out the guy who was lying about being a cop was also being deceptive about being a "No Kings" protestor. Whodathunkit? https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-shootings-lawmakers-suspect-21b2165404bc66f77dd5e0e36efeb065 Quote
NeuroTypical Posted Monday at 08:21 PM Report Posted Monday at 08:21 PM (edited) This one has a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense yet. Stuff pointing in various directions. If Boelter turns out to be motivated solely by his pro-life stance, it'll be probably more horrible than the Planned Parenthood shooting (which happened just down the street from where I worked). That guy was a mentally ill nut who is still showing up in our local news fighting against being medicated so he can stand trial. Boelter doesn't seem to be a mentally ill anything - similar to both T would-be assassins and the UHC CEO killer. I'm against violence, especially deadly violence, from all sides of all fences. The loss in Minnesota is my loss too. And if otherwise mentally stable people are our new class of deadly threats? I'm not a happy camper every time I read the news. Edited Monday at 08:23 PM by NeuroTypical Phoenix_person and mirkwood 2 Quote
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