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Isn't that kinda like claiming, "Weight loss is beyond our control. If you doubt this try this experiment, become 25 lbs lighter for the next five minutes and then revert back to 25 lbs heavier. If you succeed I stand refuted." Your quip makes a nice rhetorical flair but it's not really a considered experiment.

Many people can have shaken faith despite being diligent and obedient in nourishing our spirit (prayer, scripture study etc.). Its a great over simplification to think that if one is diligent then they will never have a faith crisis. Prayer and scripture study doesn't magically cure all ailments. IMO, the church has done its members a great disservice in the way it presents its history. In church I was taught a near fictional representation of early church leaders and events. When I began learning of controversial issues that occasionally blot church history I was distraught. I grew up being taught of a nearly infallible church being led by leaders that were almost perfect. When the truth emerged that our history isn't quite the polished fairytale Id been taught, I had a struggle of faith. It was a real and difficult struggle. I felt lied too, misled, and deceived. It's easy to say "oh, he must have never really had a strong testimony" - but that is an easy cop out response. The truth is that when historical facts contradict what you've been taught in church, it feels as if you're world has been turned upside down. People who have these struggles shouldnt be labeled as weaklings or apostates, but they have a real conflict of conscience that needs to be understood. They need compassion. What have I done? I have realized that belief is a choice. I still choose to believe, despite the difficult history and other issues, because it makes me happy.

I oppose gambling, but two-parent families are like the favorites in horse racing. They don't always win, but they are the better bet.

Of course our beliefs are within our control. Who else would have the control? We're not helpless creatures. We all have free agency to believe and act as we do. That free agency also includes the ability to change our minds, which can also include changing our beliefs. I converted to the church from Judaism. The whole "Jesus thing" (as I used to call it) made no sense to me. Then a member of the church shared his testimony with me and invited to read the Book of Mormon and go to church. I took the missionary lessons. I was presented with information that I never heard before. My beliefs changed. That was my choice. I could have said thanks, but no thanks (and I initially did. I fought changing my mind). But I made the choice to change my beliefs. At some point, we all choose. To believe X or believe Y. Or not to believe.

Instantly flip a switch and believe whatever the switch is flipped to? If that is the question, then yes, your 'experiment' is relevant. However... That we can will what we believe, and that we can instantly will what we believe are not the same thing. Your experiment address the idea of if one can simply flip a mental switch into believing what one might like, it does not address if belief is volitional in nature. I think you'll find that while some on the board will argue for a volitional foundation to belief they aren't likely to agree with your 'flip a switch' premise.

If two people both learn the so-called "fairly tale" history, and then they both discover the so-called "true" history, and the one experiences shaken faith, and the other does not, then what would you ascribe the difference too if it is not testimony?

New entry: Hunger Wars

If we are counting on Christian goodness to save the world (which is what Christians ought to do) then we need to be saving souls.

Despite MoE's bit of smarminess the newsletters won't be replacing the Ensign (which is available online already if one wanted to avoid a paper copy) and unless I've missed something over the years, they won't be replacing monthly paper newsletters coming from the First Presidency. So it's unlikely this will reduce paper use. I suppose if they are gung ho enough about monthly newsletters such that they'd do them even with the costs involved in a hard-copy newsletter it could be considered a paper reduction measure, but from the sounds of it they aren't deciding to save paper by burning electronics, they just decided to burn more electrons.

You see what it could do.... But you are ignoring/unaware of why it has not done so... You need solid answers to questions you are not even asking before you can make this happen. I know what the LDS aspect of Christendom is doing to try to rise to this challenge. I assume (and I have seen glimpse of) other aspects of Christendom are also trying. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel why don't you try talking to the various aspects of Christendom and find out what they are doing and trying?

Are you suggesting that her faith and testimony was exceedingly strong but she decided that the church wasn't true anyhow?

Why is this such a common comment members make about other members? M.

If you're a religious person, you'll ultimately feel that the most urgent is to save one's soul, and everything else is secondary to that. So that would mean, if you're able to convert someone to X because in your belief this is the first step to salvation, that's probably going to be your first attempt. No amount of food or water will save your soul. If you're not a religious person, you might not even believe in souls, etc. But you might have the desire to give charity to those that need food, water, and shelter. And this might even be more important than ensuring someone has a belief system. Personally, I'm not the converting type, but over the years I have become more aware of those in need. I am more than happy to help financially or with my time, aide those that need food, clean water, and finding shelter. There are so many families and people totally on their own that need help.

that looks good 2RM A recipe for nonalcoholic wsassail that i use a couple times a year good for holidays. Wassail drink (nonalcoholic version) - a very delicious drink to celebrate the change from fall to winter. ( I make it once or twice a year, one for Halloween and one for thanksgiving, and it's my fave drink) that is made of apple cider, citrus drinks, and various spices. you'll want to have a kettle that can hold a few gallons in it. the closest commercial drink I've found to it, is Mott's citrus and spice drink mix.. and it doesn't even compare to it at all. 1 put 2 - 2 and 1/2 quarts of water in the kettle then add: 6 cups of sugar 16 all spice 20 whole cloves 4-5 cinnamon sticks some ginger ( I use ground ginger, a couple good shakes of the can with a perforated top or about 1/8-1/4 teaspoon) bring it to a solid boil, and let it boil for 5 minutes while stirring occasionally. after the 5 minutes remove the heat and let it sit for an hour. it gets a nice golden red hue to it by this time for me. 2 after the one hour add; 1 gallon of apple cider (the fresher the better... I suppose you can use apple juice but having pressed cider is wayyyy better) 2 cans of orange juice concentrate, and then use those cans add 6 cans of water 1/2 cup of real lemon juice concentrate (or you can use a can of lemon juice concentrate) bring to the desired temperature and serve (best served hot, but also is good cold) for added flavor you can throw in orange and lemon slices and/or cranberries. Granted this isn't a western native traditional food, but its so flippin good I think I'll add it here if you think its out of bounds for this group then please remove this. Also its a bit on the sugar heavy side so its not very diebetic friendly. I believe this drink comes from an old eastern tradition that used this drink to bless the trees to live through the winter months as well as various rites to scare away the bad spirits and evil luck. I understand that it usually has some sort of wine added to it but I like how I do it better.