Traveler

Just a couple of thoughts:
I should probably vote “I don’t care” in the survey because “organic evolution” can mean so many things; so much so I think that on some level and in some ways, you believe in it too.
Science is as godless as a hammer. It is a tool for learning about the world around us and can be used equally for good or evil, and by a faithful person as well as a wicked person. As a discipline, it “leaves out God” just as a hammer does no matter who drives the nail. It still works.
Satan does seek to remove God from everything, but also to pervert an understanding of Him and His ways, and to foster enmity with and intentionality against Him.
Celestial laws (whether physical, spiritual, mathematical/logical) do not necessarily correspond to terrestrial laws, and terrestrial laws do not necessarily translate into telestial laws. For example, processes such as hybridization and viral mutation are unlikely operative in paradise, the spirit world or in the resurrection.

The basic concept of insurance is to prevent someone from going bankrupt from a catastrophic cost.  When insurance goes beyond helping in catastrophic situations to common, regular and usual situations - the purpose for insurance has been removed and a very different purpose substituted.  
 
The Traveler

The basic concept of insurance is to prevent someone from going bankrupt from a catastrophic cost.  When insurance goes beyond helping in catastrophic situations to common, regular and usual situations - the purpose for insurance has been removed and a very different purpose substituted.  
 
The Traveler

I thought I would share with you two personal experiences:
First - While doing consulting in Phoenix I met a doctor (and member of the church) that had a clinic in Mexico.  He use to have a practice in New York.  I was interested in why he opened up a medical clinic in Mexico.  He said that he can fly a patient from New York to his clinic, perform open heart surgery, keep the patient at his clinic under medical care during recovery and fly the patient back to New York for less than they will pay for a year of medical insurance - and he makes more profit than when he charged outrageous  prices for his services in New York.
Second - About a year ago I had to have cataract surgery on one eye.  I was prescribed specialized eye drops for pre and post surgery that would cost me $600 in deductibles from a decent medical plan.  I refused to pay the for the medication and first argued with the pharmacists and got no where - so I went back to my doctor and requested that he prescribe a generic or something else.  My doctor said there was no generic of substitute.  (You are right about one thing - our current system is not capitalistic).  I went back and argued some more with my pharmacists - Finely they said there was one other possibility - I could buy the eye drops out of pocket without filling an insurance claim - my out of pocket expense would by $150.
 
Most in the discussion concerning the cost of medical care in the USA do not realize that the top three reasons for increases in medical costs over the last 50 years is not medical.  Currently over 80% of what a person pays for their actual medical care (with or without insurance) does not go towards their specific medical care.  Let me explain what happens when money goes through a government agency (which is currently one of the top three reasons already for the most substantial increases in medical costs).  Lets take Social Security for example.  By federal law any private retirement fund must operate with 6% or less overhead or the controllers of that fund go to federal prison.  Social Security operates with 60% overhead.  That means that only 40% of the funds collected will be returned to those receiving Social Security.  Currently those receiving Social Security - if they only received back what they put in - using the current life expectancy tables they would receive $70,000 per year on average.  Guess what happens to money going through a government agency?
Any purported changes to health care that does not address directly why health care costs are sky rocketing - is in essence a scam.  Currently one of the most rapidly increasing costs of health care is the amount paid to government for services that have nothing to do with patient health care.  The notion that universal health care will decrease health care care cost is an outright bold face lie and deception!  Especially because it does not decrease the cost of governmental interference, nor does it address the other two reason that health care costs have increased much more than inflation for the last 60 years.
One last point - I have a brother that use to be a strong advocate of universal health care - a couple of years ago we (my brother and I) were on vacation in Norway when he contracted a gull stone.   Norway has the best universal health care in the world or so it is touted.  After his experience - he has had a complete reversal in his attitude concerning universal health care.  His response was that anyone that advocates universal health care has never been forced in to using it.
 
The Traveler

Hmm, let me see now. "Universal" health care for:
@Vort, yes we should care for the elderly, and he's of an age where he probably won't need it for too many more years
 @MormonGator, @Fether and @LiterateParakeet? No, that would be vet care.
@zil? IN NO WAY, IN ANY FORM, ANYWHERE, EVER.
@anatess2 and @Sunday21 Yes, with the best possible doctors on call 24 hours a day
@Carborendum no, that would be stone masonry for the rough stone rolling
@lostinwater perhaps not, it could be for a lost cause
@pam Why?
@Traveler No, should be covered by travel er insurance
@NeuroTypical not typically 
 
 
 
 

So, the only valid definitions and rankings for science are those given in a medical (specifically looking at surgical methods) journal? As a chemist, I am well aware of some of the disdain that we in the hard sciences can express towards those in the social sciences. If we want, we can branch into our own bash on the social sciences thread. When all gets said and done, though, I'm not sure it is appropriate to stubbornly insist that surveys like this are not science, when they are a perfectly good, scientific way to measure people's (in general or a specific demographic) attitudes, beliefs, and opinions. Certainly they can be done well, or they can be done poorly, some have better methodology than others, and there can be real value in critiquing someone's methodology (and they frequently do). For those who are interested in how members of the Church view evolution (and some of the theological challenges and nuances that science versus religion bring), the survey results should prove interesting.

This guy is often on-point as well:

Part of the problem is understanding ancient culture and terms used within the culture.  The concept of a church is sort of a term created during the Dark Ages.  Previously such references were more associated with congregations or gatherings.  For example - in the Dead Sea Scriptures there are references to the congregations of "The Children of Light" and "The Children of Darkness".  In general ancients thought more in term like "gathering" so in essence a church is kind of an official term for a gathering.  
As far as official gatherings - Jacob references an individual that came among the Nephites shortly after the death of Nephi (but does not mention from where - a little side note here about the Book of Mormon being a "historic" document - obviously there are historical information missing - indicating that the purpose is not historic but rather something else - in the past I have suggested that the actual purpose is not historic but prophetic).  Jacob references that this person preaching against Christ, created followers.  I suggest this means a "gathering" or "congregation" - which is the essence of what we think of as a church in our modern time.  The reference in Mosiah indicates that Alma was a descendant of Nephi.  It is common in ancient documents to reference someone that is an heir of authority as a descendant.  In essence - this would mean that Alma was an official of the church that was using their position in Noah's court outside of covenant.  Alma was renewed in the covenant by a washing ordinance that was called "baptism".  But the actual term on the golden plates may have been different but is properly translated as baptism.
I would point out that ritual cleansing (or preparation) was not uncommon under the Law of Moses in the Old Testament.  An example is when Joshua baptized the all children of Israel in Jordan before entering Israel.  This was to establish an new era of covenant.  The idea of covenant era is what I believe the Book of Mormon is referencing in Mosiah rather than a whole new "church" that did not previously exist.
I would like to now make two points - first is to the accuracy and proof that the Book of Mormon is of ancient source and not a fabrication of Joseph Smith in our modern era.  Joseph Smith could have been a literal genius but being a farm boy of early American culture - could not have had access to such in depth understanding of ancient cultures to have created the Book of Mormon by his own devices.  
The second point concerns prophesies of two churches in the last days.  One being the Church of G-d and the other the Church of the Devil.  Many try to point to some modern Church (for example the Catholic church) as the church of the devil.  This is an incorrect understanding of the ancient terms.  What we should understand is that in these last days - people will be divided by issues.  A good example of this is access to religious covenants (in particular marriage) by individuals unwilling to follow the divine religious covenant of marriage between a man and a woman to bring children into the world by sexual relationships).  We see this particular division taking place not so much by what we may think of as "Church" but as a "gathering" of like thinking peoples.
 
The Traveler

That Js jr. had schizophrenia is laughable at best. As somebody who has sz I can say with a surety he did not have sz. A big part of sz is negative symptoms. Those include avolition, anhedonia and flat affect to say a few. Avolition is when you have no motivation to do anything and anhedonia is when you can’t experience pleasure. Those two negative symptoms do not apply to js jr. by all accounts. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to LDS critics but there is no way he had sz. From my experience with az the chances of him having it are zero.

I did a brief check, so apologies if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it.
After musing on the changes we've seen recently, not just the 2-hour Sunday block, but the shift towards ministering vs home-/visiting-teaching, but also other things such as the lowering of the age for missionaries, introduction of Preach My Gospel, the shift from PH/RS "manuals" from teachings of the prophets towards recent general conference messages, council meetings, focus on special topics (Sabbath day, ministering, personal scripture study), various iterations of Come Follow Me youth manuals over the past few years, a new Gospel Principles book, new For the Strength of Youth pamphlets, etc. etc.
The trend that I'm seeing is that it's steering the members towards deeper conversion, taking more responsibility for keeping the Holy Ghost with them and making the Gospel part of their daily doings. This is great. I fully believe that each person should do his or her best to get Christ's image in his / her own countenance, and the new resources and programmes to guide us to do this are wonderful.
However.
We currently have many members who are just floating along. You know the ones I'm talking about. They are good people and attend (most of) their meetings, they don't swear, drink coffee or steal from their employers, they have read enough of the scriptures at some point in their lives to be able to answer questions in a Sunday School class. And yet, they are not particularly diligent in studying the scriptures or praying regularly, or perhaps they don't pay a full tithe or fulfil home-teaching assignments very well. (They might not even know it's called "ministering" now because they took a holiday on that conference weekend.) In my most honest moments, I can see this has actually been me for parts of my life, though not always.
Corridor-talk at a leadership training meeting this past weekend in my stake suggested that many leaders are of the opinion that these changes are filters, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I kind of see their point, but at the same time it worries me a bit.
I'm keen to hear some others' thoughts. What will happen to our members who aren't as diligent perhaps as they could be? Will they get left behind somehow? Will it be possible to maintain their current status quo, albeit with an hour extra to nap on Sunday afternoons? Will there be a divergence between "wheat" and "chaff"?

At a stake training last night, our Stake President presented a slightly different view, and I think we will all be benefited by adopting it and helping others to adopt it:
1) Home-Centered, Church-Supported
Many members currently have this reversed - they think what they do at home supports the Church - they study for lessons, as instructed, they serve in callings to support the Church, they give talks for Church.  Church is the 3-hour block + activities + callings, and what they do outside that time is to prep for that time. The proper view is that their faith and religion are meant to be centered in their home.  They are to learn, study, and teach at home.  When they come to Church (the building or the events), whether as an "attendee" or as one called to perform specific functions, they do so to gain support for what they're doing at home, and to support others in what they are doing at home. 2) A pattern from 3 Nephi:
In 3 Nephi 17, which takes place after the Lord's initial appearance and teaching of the Nephites (day 1), he says this:
...there's only so much they can take in at once, so he tells them to go home, ponder, pray and prepare. Then, what happens in chapter 18?   The Lord institutes the Sacrament.
The SP suggested this as a pattern for the new schedule and curriculum - We learn only so much at a time, then go home to ponder, pray, and prepare (to receive the Sacrament); then we come together again.  And this pattern repeats.  He also pointed out what happens in chapter 19 - that the people, all excited and converted, go seek others to bring "on the morrow".  This too should be part of the pattern (even if not an overnight change).
To me, this relates to one of the best things we can get from these changes, if we so choose: customization.  Instead of sitting through a lesson that may not relate to you at the moment, may not be what you need, or similar, you can determine your own focus for your study.

Who are going to be the Wheat and who are going to be the chaff though?
Just because they do not do the scripture study does not make them chaff, and just because they do their scripture study does not mean they are wheat.
Pride seems to be the dividing line between wheat and chaff in the Book of Mormon.  One particular group would go to church every Sunday and then proclaim how they were chosen above all others, but as we see, were the most wicked.  Meanwhile those who could not attend were those humble enough to listen to Alma.
In the New Testament the Pharisees and Saducees probably studied the scriptures and adhered to church law far more than any other.  However, due to their pride in doing so the Lord continually spoke ill of them and their fates while ministering to the poor and humble.  Many of the poor and humble didn't even know the scriptures all that well, but found faith enough to follow the Savior's words.
Division between Wheat and Chaff I think is going to be FAR more than simply two hour church and following the study program they put out.  I think it may have a tendency to lend a hand up or down to those who choose to follow it, but in and of themselves, most of the changes I see are not specifically to divide wheat and tares anymore than other changes have been in the past. 

As I learned from my father - I encouraged (pushed) my kids to do good things and a mission I considered a good thing.  Some of my kids did not serve a mission - and though I was disappointed - I still love them - and my one son that did not serve a mission has married in the temple.  I believe that there are blessings lost from not serving but life goes on and there are other blessings.
 
The Traveler

In white water rafting there is a hidden danger in certain smooth places where the river runs deep over vast river bottom changes.  At the top the river flows almost uneventful but because the river run very deep there can be a 100 foot water fall into a hole that is filled to level where the river is running.  Sometimes the strong down current will create a whirlpool that will suddenly appear and disappear.  I have seen such hydraulics pull a kayak or small 4 man raft completely under.  There are times when river rafting it is fun to trow people in the river or jump in a swim a bit.  But there are places where you want to stay in the safety of the boat. 
Because most in my generation grew up on a relatively safe river - we may not realize how dangerous things are getting for them.  I am not a porn expert but in my youth it was impossible to avoid pron.  Or course we were advised to avoid it - but young men were attracted to certain pleasures with young ladies.  It was thought of as part of the process of growing up.  But I am thinking there are very different undercurrents in the rivers that youth are currently growing up in and they are introduced to a more deadly variety of of such things at a much earlier age.
I have argued on this forum that all cognitive behaviors in an intelligent species are acquired or learned behaviors.   Pavlov proved that cognitive behaviors can be acquired by subtle associations that would seem unrelated except for happening at the same time.  Skinner and Freud proved that behaviors learned in youth are believed by an individual to have been acquired at birth or something they were "born" to do.  I recently was talking to a psychologist that was explaining that behaviors acquired in youth seem most difficult to break or alter.
It is my personal theory that children are the key to when G-d will determine when to step in and destroy a society - that is when children have no psychological chance to grow up to adult hood without acquiring "forbidden" behaviors (mostly related to violence or sexual).  I believe the term used in scripture to describe the perversion of children - is "ripe in iniquity".  I think we are getting closer - not just to accepting all kinds of iniquity (sexual and violence) and "natural" for adults but common for children as well.
 
The Traveler

Sometimes I think this is a chicken or egg kind of thing.  I remember some years ago when serving in a calling with the young men we were advised to have a priesthood purpose for each activity.  It did not change the activities we planned that much – what it changed was the creativity employed to come up with a priesthood purpose for the activities we planned.
Another observation – a while back I was called to be our ward nursery leader.  My ward is kind of a newlywed and nearly dead ward.   I have never been that involved with young children.  My dear wife kept our home and I did a lot a traveling with work.  She thought ward nursery leader was the perfect calling for me.   I approached it like any other calling – I read all the information and intended to install all the recommended procedures and structures.  Nothing worked and nursery workers were quitting – it seemed weekly.  So I prayed a lot – visited other nurseries and talked to anyone that thought they were an expert.  Things still did not work out very well.  Especially lesson time was a disaster.   Then I had a thought – the thought was to make nursery fun.  Not just fun for the kids but fun for the adults serving as well.
There was a dramatic change within just a few weeks.  Sometimes lesson time was me holding up a picture of Jesus and saying to the children – “This is Jesus Christ.  He loves you and wants you to have fun and love coming to church.”  But getting through the second hour was a challenge.  Until I had an idea.  We had this large knitted bag of balls of various sizes.  About half way through the second hour I took the bag and all the balls with the kids into the cultural hall for about 15 minutes.  I gave each kid a ball and told them to kick it and run after the balls.  The balls in the cultural hall was a unprecedented success.  The little darlings got out of the confined nursery and they got to run with the herd.  Lots of good and fun things started happening in the nursery – but the best thing seemed to me that the kids bonded with each other and the leaders.  But then, one day there was someone that complained about the little children running wild in the cultural hall.  I honestly do not know who it was but they complained to the bishop that this particular activity must stop.  I think it may have been a former stake president – but that is beside the point.  We were told that the children were not wild animals – or something like that. 
I came up with another idea that worked almost as well but the point I want to make here is that being Christ centered is not always having a lesson or something where we talk about Jesus.  As adults we are encouraged to read scriptures daily – This is not because reading scriptures in the goal of life or eternity.  That is not what we are trying to do – especially in this life.  Some days the real goal is to just get through the day.  I understand that for many – having a Christ centered life would be a drastic change for them.  But I believe for most of the Latter-day Saints; having a Christ centered life really does not change anything we will do – but thinking about being Christ centered will remind us and help us remember why we are here on earth – trying to get through the day.  And my advice?  Every day has 24 hours in it regardless of what you do, say or think – so while getting through the next 24 hours it will be a lot more enjoyable if you have fun or think you are having fun and remember Jesus wants you to enjoy every second of your life – not just while being a mortal but for every second of the rest of eternity as well.
 
The Traveler

I find this most interesting.  Just for information - I stated before that I am from a political family.  My first real experience with politics was working on a campaign.  While involved I discovered criminal activity but I did not say what it was.  I left the Republican Party because of tampering with ballots.  I reported this to the FBI but no one was ever convicted.  I also reported this to both the Deseret News and Tribune - neither of which would report the incident.  I left the Republican Party because of this and now they are blaming the Democrats.   It does not surprise me that Democrats also tamper with ballots.  When I posted this before - I did not provide the information about what was going on.  This is because historically when I have told of Republican criminal behavior - no one would believe me - that the Utah Republican Party could be corrupt.  For a long time I have been concerned about political parties not just that the law was broken but that no one would do anything about it - and that was 50 years ago.
 
The Traveler

Sometimes I think this is a chicken or egg kind of thing.  I remember some years ago when serving in a calling with the young men we were advised to have a priesthood purpose for each activity.  It did not change the activities we planned that much – what it changed was the creativity employed to come up with a priesthood purpose for the activities we planned.
Another observation – a while back I was called to be our ward nursery leader.  My ward is kind of a newlywed and nearly dead ward.   I have never been that involved with young children.  My dear wife kept our home and I did a lot a traveling with work.  She thought ward nursery leader was the perfect calling for me.   I approached it like any other calling – I read all the information and intended to install all the recommended procedures and structures.  Nothing worked and nursery workers were quitting – it seemed weekly.  So I prayed a lot – visited other nurseries and talked to anyone that thought they were an expert.  Things still did not work out very well.  Especially lesson time was a disaster.   Then I had a thought – the thought was to make nursery fun.  Not just fun for the kids but fun for the adults serving as well.
There was a dramatic change within just a few weeks.  Sometimes lesson time was me holding up a picture of Jesus and saying to the children – “This is Jesus Christ.  He loves you and wants you to have fun and love coming to church.”  But getting through the second hour was a challenge.  Until I had an idea.  We had this large knitted bag of balls of various sizes.  About half way through the second hour I took the bag and all the balls with the kids into the cultural hall for about 15 minutes.  I gave each kid a ball and told them to kick it and run after the balls.  The balls in the cultural hall was a unprecedented success.  The little darlings got out of the confined nursery and they got to run with the herd.  Lots of good and fun things started happening in the nursery – but the best thing seemed to me that the kids bonded with each other and the leaders.  But then, one day there was someone that complained about the little children running wild in the cultural hall.  I honestly do not know who it was but they complained to the bishop that this particular activity must stop.  I think it may have been a former stake president – but that is beside the point.  We were told that the children were not wild animals – or something like that. 
I came up with another idea that worked almost as well but the point I want to make here is that being Christ centered is not always having a lesson or something where we talk about Jesus.  As adults we are encouraged to read scriptures daily – This is not because reading scriptures in the goal of life or eternity.  That is not what we are trying to do – especially in this life.  Some days the real goal is to just get through the day.  I understand that for many – having a Christ centered life would be a drastic change for them.  But I believe for most of the Latter-day Saints; having a Christ centered life really does not change anything we will do – but thinking about being Christ centered will remind us and help us remember why we are here on earth – trying to get through the day.  And my advice?  Every day has 24 hours in it regardless of what you do, say or think – so while getting through the next 24 hours it will be a lot more enjoyable if you have fun or think you are having fun and remember Jesus wants you to enjoy every second of your life – not just while being a mortal but for every second of the rest of eternity as well.
 
The Traveler

I don't believe in holy relics. I think that's just old plain superstitious magic by another name.

In the book of Jasher, Esau stole the garment from Nimrod and ran to Jacob for help avoiding capture / detection.  This is how Jacob got the garment and the birthright - saving Esau's life - not for a mess of pottage.  I like this expanded version of events - seems more probable than just that Esau was starving.

I find this most interesting.  Just for information - I stated before that I am from a political family.  My first real experience with politics was working on a campaign.  While involved I discovered criminal activity but I did not say what it was.  I left the Republican Party because of tampering with ballots.  I reported this to the FBI but no one was ever convicted.  I also reported this to both the Deseret News and Tribune - neither of which would report the incident.  I left the Republican Party because of this and now they are blaming the Democrats.   It does not surprise me that Democrats also tamper with ballots.  When I posted this before - I did not provide the information about what was going on.  This is because historically when I have told of Republican criminal behavior - no one would believe me - that the Utah Republican Party could be corrupt.  For a long time I have been concerned about political parties not just that the law was broken but that no one would do anything about it - and that was 50 years ago.
 
The Traveler

Study of the 28th chapter of 3rd Nephi is well worth the effort. An event of great import occurs within the chapter, but without careful investigation it will be unappreciated. Pay attention to Mormon’s voice, his actions, and commentary. I don’t wish to spoil the personal discovery, but for convenience I will point out that Mormon is giving us a perfect example of how to read the scriptures. The chapter can be divided into three sections. In the first part, verses 1-16, Mormon studied Nephi the Disciple’s manuscript and then inscribed the material into the Golden Plates. In the second part, verses 17-24, Mormon does some cross referencing and then shares with us his personal insight. In the remainder of the chapter - something special happens.
It may help to visualize the setting wherein Mormon is writing. The following image is Tom Lovell’s Oil on Canvas work titled Mormon Abridging the Plates. The painting does have some inconsistencies with the text, but a picture can give a very useful impression.

Mormon is an old man. With a little research, we find out that the writing of The Words of Mormon took place approximately during Mormon’s seventy-fourth year of life.[1]  The collection of plates that Ammaron had hidden in the Hill Shim had been retrieved ten years earlier by Mormon.[2]  In Lovell’s painting Mormon appears to be in the setting of a Temple or large well-appointed residence. Mormon was probably in a much more spartan setting. He had recently moved his people to the land of Cumorah in preparation for war. Apparently, he inscribed the material between The Words of Mormon and Mormon chapter six within the self-same year.[3]
I recommend picking up the Book of Mormon and giving the chapter some scrutiny. In your mind, modify Tom Lovell’s illustration where you perceive differences within the text.  For example, Mormon probably was not scuffing up prior prophet's manuscripts with his sandals... You can even direct your own movie if you want to; I certainly do. If you don’t find anything of significance with the first reading, keep studying. It may even benefit you to pray and ponder as needed. If there is any interest I will post a follow up of what I think is a pretty exciting find.  
  [1] Mormon 1:6 (Age 11 at year 322 A.D.), Words of Mormon v. 2 (year 385 A.D.)
[2] Mormon 4:23
[3] Mormon 6:2-6

I have no problem with anyone that is willing to permit and carry. I have carried and I have served in the military with opportunity for combat (but was never in actual combat).  At this point of my life - I would rather be shot dead by a bad guy than to shoot dead a bad guy - but that does not mean that I will not shoot a bad guy.  Even Jesus (the Son of G-d) found himself doing things he did not actually want to do but realized that there were somethings he had to do.
 
The Traveler

What is moderate seems to be more dependent on what we want and do not want than it is on what is good or needed.
 
The Traveler

I have no problem with anyone that is willing to permit and carry. I have carried and I have served in the military with opportunity for combat (but was never in actual combat).  At this point of my life - I would rather be shot dead by a bad guy than to shoot dead a bad guy - but that does not mean that I will not shoot a bad guy.  Even Jesus (the Son of G-d) found himself doing things he did not actually want to do but realized that there were somethings he had to do.
 
The Traveler

This is like saying... I’d like to thank the guy who saved the baby he threw into the swimming pool..