The Grossest Form of Church Criticism

[Connie]

The Grossest Form of Church Criticism | TempleStudy.com - LDS Temple Study Blog - Sustaining and Defending the LDS (Mormon) Temple

From the article:

Our beloved Prophet and President Ezra Taft Benson once strongly warned:

Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

[Hemidakota]

Worthy reading for all members of the church; including those of honorary status in the halls of the church academia.

You can add more to this list but it suffices what is currently happening within the walls of our Savior's church:

* They claim to be active, temple-attending, members of the Church

* They claim to have served faithful missions and currently have callings in their wards or stakes.

* Somehow they have become disaffected from what the prophets and apostles teach, whether it is through anti-Mormon literature, peer pressure, other apostates, being offended by someone in the Church, losing their testimony, becoming too infatuated with Babylon/world, or other ways, but they remain in the Church for social/familial/political/monetary or other reasons.

* They believe that we can’t trust that the leadership of the Church are the Lord’s anointed servants.

* They believe that we can’t trust what the leadership teaches is truth.

* They believe that we shouldn’t believe that the Church is the “one true Church.”

* They believe that we can’t trust that what the prophets and apostles teach us is the mind and will of the Lord for our day.

* They don’t believe in continual revelation through the authorities of the Church.

* They believe that the prophet and apostles have taught and continue to perpetuate false precepts and doctrines, and they focus all there efforts and attention on these controversial subjects.

* They believe that the Church is engaged in intentionally covering-up or hiding its history from its members.

* They believe it is more important to question, doubt, be skeptical, have suspicion, uncertainty, mistrust, waver, fear, and hesitate about the teachings of the Church and its authorities rather than have faith, seek answers, believe, trust in the Lord, have confidence, seek increased learning by study and faith, pray for confirmation, look to ecclesiastical leaders and the authorities of the Church for answers, trust that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is guiding this work by and through his chosen and anointed servants, and that they will never lead the Church astray.

* If they think that the prophets and apostles are teaching incorrect or false principles, they believe they have a moral obligation to teach and tell others within the Church about it, and thereby lead them into the same mode of belief in opposition to Church leadership.

[Traveler]

The Grossest Form of Church Criticism | TempleStudy.com - LDS Temple Study Blog - Sustaining and Defending the LDS (Mormon) Temple

From the article:

Our beloved Prophet and President Ezra Taft Benson once strongly warned:

Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

I am impressed that when Jesus met with his apostles and talked about one that was not in harmony with the truths of his gospel that John did not turn to James and say, "I bet he is talking about Judas - he has been acting strange lately."

I have yet to talk to anyone that thinks they have strange ideas - we all think that we are the one that is right and everybody else is just a little off in their thinking. But the example of the apostles is that when Jesus warned of someone not being right with their covenants -- that the apostles asked, "L-rd is it I?" Perhaps this is the best indication of who it isn't.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

I believe there is truth to the story of the 10 Virgins. While all are decent members of the Church on the surface, only 1/2 have kept extra oil.

When those 50% come tardy to the marriage supper and the Lord peeks out the door at them, I do not think he will accept their excuses: "I was just fashionably late!", "I was faithful, even though I openly disagreed with the Church on _______."

[BenRaines]

Great thread and good point Traveler.

Ben Raines

[HiJolly]

Hemi, one of your points was:

* They believe it is more important to question, doubt, be skeptical, have suspicion, uncertainty, mistrust, waver, fear, and hesitate about the teachings of the Church and its authorities rather than have faith, seek answers, believe, trust in the Lord, have confidence, seek increased learning by study and faith, pray for confirmation, look to ecclesiastical leaders and the authorities of the Church for answers, trust that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is guiding this work by and through his chosen and anointed servants, and that they will never lead the Church astray.

I think that many times we cannot choose what doubts come to us. We certainly can choose how to deal with the doubt once it surfaces, but doubts come unbidden for most of us. Same with other weaknesess. Paul is a great example not only of the human condition, but of the change that can come as a result of our hope in Christ as we struggle.

HiJolly

[Prodigal_Son]

I think that many times we cannot choose what doubts come to us. We certainly can choose how to deal with the doubt once it surfaces, but doubts come unbidden for most of us.

Absolutely true. The thing that separates the sheep from the goats is that too many, when in doubt, seek answers from all the wrong sources. Instead of studying the scriptures, and the living prophets - and then praying IN FAITH on their knees... they talk it out with others - often those who will be sympathetic to their concerns. They google for answers (and heaven knows that you can find ANYTHING, be it true or false, via google). It's unfortunate, but it's also indicative of an already existent chink in the armor. Perhaps the doubt would never have arisen if they'd been faithfully studying and seeking personal revelation in the first place...

I find the need to constantly remind members (and myself) that the 10 virgins and the goats/sheep were ALL church members!

[pam]

I believe there is truth to the story of the 10 Virgins. While all are decent members of the Church on the surface, only 1/2 have kept extra oil.

When those 50% come tardy to the marriage supper and the Lord peeks out the door at them, I do not think he will accept their excuses: "I was just fashionably late!", "I was faithful, even though I openly disagreed with the Church on _______."

Or that I was on "Mormon Standard Time."

[Hemidakota]

PS - Don't be let down is the Spirit tells you to Google it. LOL

[bmy-]

* They believe it is more important to question, doubt, be skeptical, have suspicion, uncertainty, mistrust, waver, fear, and hesitate about the teachings of the Church and its authorities rather than have faith, seek answers, believe, trust in the Lord, have confidence, seek increased learning by study and faith, pray for confirmation, look to ecclesiastical leaders and the authorities of the Church for answers, trust that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is guiding this work by and through his chosen and anointed servants, and that they will never lead the Church astray.

I doubt everything. I'm skeptical about most of it. That's how my 'faith' grows. When I put my leaders and beliefs to the 'test'.. they'll stand or fall.

If they fall -- they weren't worth believing in. So far with this Church.. nothing really falls down. That's why i'm a member.

[Snow]

* They claim to be active, temple-attending, members of the Church

* They claim to have served faithful missions and currently have callings in their wards or stakes.

* Somehow they have become disaffected from what the prophets and apostles teach, whether it is through anti-Mormon literature, peer pressure, other apostates, being offended by someone in the Church, losing their testimony, becoming too infatuated with Babylon/world, or other ways, but they remain in the Church for social/familial/political/monetary or other reasons.

* They believe that we can’t trust that the leadership of the Church are the Lord’s anointed servants.

* They believe that we can’t trust what the leadership teaches is truth.

* They believe that we shouldn’t believe that the Church is the “one true Church.”

* They believe that we can’t trust that what the prophets and apostles teach us is the mind and will of the Lord for our day.

* They don’t believe in continual revelation through the authorities of the Church.

* They believe that the prophet and apostles have taught and continue to perpetuate false precepts and doctrines, and they focus all there efforts and attention on these controversial subjects.

* They believe that the Church is engaged in intentionally covering-up or hiding its history from its members.

* They believe it is more important to question, doubt, be skeptical, have suspicion, uncertainty, mistrust, waver, fear, and hesitate about the teachings of the Church and its authorities rather than have faith, seek answers, believe, trust in the Lord, have confidence, seek increased learning by study and faith, pray for confirmation, look to ecclesiastical leaders and the authorities of the Church for answers, trust that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is guiding this work by and through his chosen and anointed servants, and that they will never lead the Church astray.

* If they think that the prophets and apostles are teaching incorrect or false principles, they believe they have a moral obligation to teach and tell others within the Church about it, and thereby lead them into the same mode of belief in opposition to Church leadership.

It's easy to create a list a black and white characteristics and invent a fictional person(s) to match those criteria and say - ooh, look, bad mormon - repent or suffer.

In reality, people are much more complex. Take the last point, for example. I don't think, generally, that prophets teach false principles, but if asked I can give you a bunch of examples when they have. I don't feel I have any obligation to teach and tell others about it, but when applicable to the conversation I don't mind discussing the truth of it... and I don't think God is going to disown me for it.

[bytor2112]

Great article...gotta love President Benson! Truly the solution to troubling issues or lapses in faith because of newly discovered peculiararities in church history or doctrine......is to "believe, trust in the Lord, have confidence, seek increased learning by study and faith, pray for confirmation, look to ecclesiastical leaders and the authorities of the Church for answers, trust that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is guiding this work by and through his chosen and anointed servants, and that they will never lead the Church astray."

[bytor2112]

It's easy to create a list a black and white characteristics and invent a fictional person(s) to match those criteria and say - ooh, look, bad mormon - repent or suffer.

In reality, people are much more complex. Take the last point, for example. I don't think, generally, that prophets teach false principles, but if asked I can give you a bunch of examples when they have. I don't feel I have any obligation to teach and tell others about it, but when applicable to the conversation I don't mind discussing the truth of it... and I don't think God is going to disown me for it.

I think it is more about setting yourself above the General Authorities of the church and while pretending to sutain the church leadership, inwardly you doubt their credibility and outwardly you express it as fact to other members. I don't think the Lord faults us for questioning things we don't undertand......many of us including JS wouldn't be a Latter Day Saint if it weren't for burning questions.......

I worry sometimes about some of the more colorful issues in church history that is not usually taught can lead members with new or weak testimonies out of church and am generally very cautious about who I discuss these issues with.......

[bytor2112]

Off topic question......When President Benson had so deteriorated.....who was leading the Church? Quorum of the Twelve? Kind of like when Joesph was murdered? I read an anti site that asked this question......I am guessing....but since we sustain the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers and Revelators that they would lead while the Church President is convelesing? Of couse, the Lord could simply restore health when needed......

[jjrogers]

I think the oil in the lamps represents our personal worthiness. That is what God is going to look at, at judgement time. And it is the only thing we can't share.

I heard that with President Benson he would be sleeping in the meetings and the meetings would reach a point where a decision would need to be made and he would wake up and say what should be done.

[Guest ceeboo]

[font=Verdan

I have yet to talk to anyone that thinks they have strange ideas - we all think that we are the one that is right and everybody else is just a little off in their thinking. But the example of the apostles is that when Jesus warned of someone not being right with their covenants -- that the apostles asked, "L-rd is it I?" Perhaps this is the best indication of who it isn't.

The Traveler

Hello Traveler,

Very well said IMHO, thanks for sharing it :)

God bless,

Carl

[HiJolly]

Off topic question......When President Benson had so deteriorated.....who was leading the Church? Quorum of the Twelve? Kind of like when Joesph was murdered? I read an anti site that asked this question......I am guessing....but since we sustain the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers and Revelators that they would lead while the Church President is convelesing? Of couse, the Lord could simply restore health when needed......

It was President Hinckley, with the others in the First Presidency. Once the prophet DIES, then the Quorum of the 12 steps up. Since Pres. Benson hadn't died, President Hinckley as the senior counselor and (as it happens, the president of the quorum of the 12 apostles) took the lead.

HiJolly

[Vort]

Off topic question......When President Benson had so deteriorated.....who was leading the Church? Quorum of the Twelve? Kind of like when Joesph was murdered? I read an anti site that asked this question......I am guessing....but since we sustain the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers and Revelators that they would lead while the Church President is convelesing? Of couse, the Lord could simply restore health when needed......

The First Presidency leads the Church. Since the First Presidency consists of more that just the president, it is irrelevant whether President Benson was in a condition to fulfill his office. His counselors did so, and did marvelously.

But don't expect the antis to understand this.

[Vort]

It was President Hinckley, with the others in the First Presidency. Once the prophet DIES, then the Quorum of the 12 steps up. Since Pres. Benson hadn't died, President Hinckley as the senior counselor and (as it happens, the president of the quorum of the 12 apostles) took the lead.

Actually, Elder Hunter was president of the Twelve during President Benson's tenure.

[HiJolly]

Actually, Elder Hunter was president of the Twelve during President Benson's tenure.

Oops. Right you are.

HiJolly

[prisonchaplain]

I'm guessing that the context of the article linked was that some LDS professors had developed research and theories that seemed to criticize some church teachings. One fellow in the Seattle area was either disciplined for considering his own findings as greater than the teachings of the leadership, or something to that effect. It's all quite vague...but am I understanding the problem being addressed correctly?

[Dove]

It's easy to create a list a black and white characteristics and invent a fictional person(s) to match those criteria and say - ooh, look, bad mormon - repent or suffer.

In reality, people are much more complex. Take the last point, for example. I don't think, generally, that prophets teach false principles, but if asked I can give you a bunch of examples when they have. I don't feel I have any obligation to teach and tell others about it, but when applicable to the conversation I don't mind discussing the truth of it... and I don't think God is going to disown me for it.

Thank you Snow,

I find the tone of that list concerning. It seems as if we're esteeming people who do not act in accordance with our value system (mormon, or not) as an enemy who deserves our condescension and derision, as well as our judgement. Ouch!

I say ouch, because for me, while I have had many witnesses from the Spirit about many doctrines in the gospel, remaining an active, "upright" member of the church is an ongoing battle for me. While I believe there is purpose in this for my life's journey, it only makes it harder to read of the attitudes shown on this thread.

Yes, there is the parable of the ten virgins. How grateful I am for modern day revelation as well. There was a prayer given in General Conference a few years back. The one voicing the prayer asked for everyone to show love and kindness to all those who were in opposition to the church. It was so charitably spoken in sincerity. It was like the Balm of Gilead for me.

While we are ultimately judged for our knowledgeable choices, acts, and motives here on earth, I choose to believe that God judges in both mercy and justness, and that it pains Him to see us use our agency in such a way as to bring ourselves unhappiness.

It has been well documented that a great deal of His children are going to make choices that bring them into strict justice at the last day. I have heard that the number of people in the bottom kingdom will be as the "sands of the sea," and will decline in numbers as the kingdoms increase in glory. Let's always be Christlike to those who make decisions that can only bring them more unhappiness. I don't ever want to be accused of adding to someone's sense of despair or hopelessness in the waves of negativity that often accompany being engaged in opposing another's belief system.

[rameumptom]

I'm guessing that the context of the article linked was that some LDS professors had developed research and theories that seemed to criticize some church teachings. One fellow in the Seattle area was either disciplined for considering his own findings as greater than the teachings of the leadership, or something to that effect. It's all quite vague...but am I understanding the problem being addressed correctly?

It isn't an issue of disagreeing with some views. It is an issue of vocally disagreeing with key/core teachings of the Church. It is one thing to disagree with the idea that the Nephites were the direct ancestors of all Native Americans. It is another thing to say that DNA doesn't match up for a Hemispheric Model, therefore the Book of Mormon is false.

Would you consider someone a Christian who studied the Bible and then because there were discrepancies, "proved" that Jesus was not the Savior?

[prisonchaplain]

It isn't an issue of disagreeing with some views. It is an issue of vocally disagreeing with key/core teachings of the Church. It is one thing to disagree with the idea that the Nephites were the direct ancestors of all Native Americans. It is another thing to say that DNA doesn't match up for a Hemispheric Model, therefore the Book of Mormon is false.

Would you consider someone a Christian who studied the Bible and then because there were discrepancies, "proved" that Jesus was not the Savior?

If it was that blatant, then I'm surprised they didn't leave. I suppose every major religion has that segment that finds the sentiment nice, the moral teachings worthwhile, and just wants to chalk everything up to nicely inspired literature and healthy spiritual tradition.

Yes...I think I'd rather be an atheist/agnostic than a monotheist who believes God really doesn't care, but wants to keep up the tradition because it's tradition.

[brother01]

It's easy to create a list a black and white characteristics and invent a fictional person(s) to match those criteria and say - ooh, look, bad mormon - repent or suffer.

In reality, people are much more complex. Take the last point, for example. I don't think, generally, that prophets teach false principles, but if asked I can give you a bunch of examples when they have. I don't feel I have any obligation to teach and tell others about it, but when applicable to the conversation I don't mind discussing the truth of it... and I don't think God is going to disown me for it.

Can't agree more:-)

Which brings to mind a call put out some time ago to do a listing of the teachings of Jesus in the BOM and compare them with those found in the Bible - not even close. Perhaps I could also do an accounting of the teachings accredited to Jesus in D&C and BOC and see how they fair?