Family Proclamation controversy

[DB37]

My wife and I have been married for just over a year, and in the last couple of days we have had our first real fight. I know--we're really lucky. Unfortunately, this fight is about the Family Proclamation, the last thing I thought we'd ever fight about.

Anyway, for Christmas my sister sent us two matching, very nice frames with a Family Proclamation in one and a picture from our wedding in the other.

Now, it should be said that my wife is the real spiritual fortress in our home. She has been faithful all her life, is a returned missionary, and is just generally a better person than me. I, on the other hand, was inactive for six or seven years, breaking commandments left and right, didn't serve a mission, and still struggle with following some commandments. I try hard and I want to do the right things, but I haven't had the strong spiritual manifestations that my wife has had. I am most definitely in the class of people who are mentioned in D&C (42:7? I'm too lazy to look it up), those who are "given to believe on their words," meaning the ones who know for themselves.

Back to the issue at hand: I want to hang up this photo and Family Proc, but my wife is opposed to hanging the Family Proc prominently in our home. She is in a PhD program, and she is taking a film class this semester. Only 6 people are in the class, so in order to make the class more enjoyable/comfortable, they have decided to rotate among classmember's homes to watch the films. One of the members of the class is gay, and my wife has had many conversations about his feelings towards Christians. He feels that Christians are judgmental towards his lifestyle and consequently, he has a very negative view of Christianity. My wife has tried to send the message that Mormons are not like other Christians (which we're not) and that we don't hate gay people (which we don't).

So the bottom line is that she doesn't want to hang up the Family Proc in the front room because she feels like it has very anti-gay undercurrents and that it will offend her friend and possibly other people in the class. My feeling is that she is worrying too much about the issue: First of all, we have a right to believe what we believe and hang what we want in our home. Second of all, the Family Proclamation is not an anti-gay or even an overtly political statement. It is a beautiful document about the Spiritual aspects of the family. Third of all, the way she treats people is what is going to send the message about what we believe, and her friend may not even read the document (although she's sure he will). Fourth of all, I'm not sure I want someone in my home who would judge me or my wife for stating our beliefs and not backing down because of intimidation from someone with an opposing viewpoint.

Where we left the issue last night is that we can hang it, but when these people come to our home she will simply take it down for a few hours. This honestly bothers me more than not hanging it at all. I was reading the scriptures last night before bed, and I came across this one:

Matthew 5:15

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

I feel like my darling wife is hiding her candlestick. Should I give in one way or another (hang it and take it down, or simply not hang it at all) or should I stand firm, as the eternal family and the sanctity of the family are the most beautiful part of the Gospel for me. It is what drew me back to the Church, and what ultimately encourages me more than anything else to strive to follow the commandments: I don't want to lose my wife and our future kids.

Advice?

[NeuroTypical]

This is a fine thing to fight about, IMO. :)

I can see both perspectives. How do you create an inviting home where people feel comfortable, share your beliefs in ways that don't offend, and not hide the truth of who you are just because someone might find it offensive or uncomfortable?

My initial thought, was that there's not a gay person in America that hasn't heard of Prop-8 in California, or LDS opposition to it. I'd bet ten bucks that this member of your wife's film class has already heard a few things about LDS beliefs outside of what your wife has talked about. An open question is whether any of these things are true or not.

My two cents: If your wife is having discussions with this person about religion, she's in a good position to judge what's best. Consider - when everyone meets at the gay person's home, what sort of things would you like that person to not have hanging on their walls for your wife to see?

The 'worrisome' part of the proclomation: God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.

There's fodder to be offended by that, whether you're gay, a single parent, an athiest, or a modern feminist. But folks who would get offended by what people have hanging in their own homes, will often find another reason to get offended, even if it's not hanging there.

Maybe a compromise - print out a few of these and have them at hand if the topic comes up?

LM

Edited January 13, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Elgama]

OK just the way I feel. I want people to be comfortable in my home - I right now don't have it hung up but because haven't sorted the house out like that before that I had it in the hallway or kitchen that way anyone who I felt it would be inappropriate for could be taken into the living room, most people I take into the kitchen

[ryanh]

OK, if that is the only fight you have had in a year, you two are doing great (unless everything is just being swept under the rug or something?)

Show her you love her, and just drop the issue. I don't see it being a big deal either way. Use the disagreement as an opportunity to get closer by dropping it, not something that can build by holding onto it.

That's my $0.02

[Vanhin]

I would hang it up and not worry about it. It is truth, and it shouldn't surprise anyone that latter-day saints disagree with things like homosexual sex, same sex "marriage", adultery, fornication, pornography, etc... It doesn't mean we can't be friends. One of my best friends and his wife, were our friends for years before they were actually married, yet they lived together, and they knew how we felt about the law of chastity. Never caused any problems, because what they did was none of our business.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Dravin]

Show her the scripture, tell her how you feel (feel is good, say I feel, not you are) and make sure to make it inclusive. We are hiding our light, not she is hiding her light.

Ultimately there isn't all that much that is going to resolve it (and resolution may mean it coming down when they come over) but communication, unless she just happens to have a weakness for accepting what random people on the internet think. :)

[Saguaro]

I would have avoided the fight altogether and said "Yes, dear" and let her have her way. Is it really worth fighting over? But then we don't have any LDS pictures or art of any kind hanging in our house, and the wife and I are both fine with that.

[Just_A_Guy]

Couldn't you compromise by getting a copy of the "Living Christ" proclamation and hanging that up in the living room? Put your Family Proclamation in your room or a spare bedroom--if someone's in either of those rooms, they should be good enough friends not to be offended by your religion.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[jadams_4040]

My wife and I have been married for just over a year, and in the last couple of days we have had our first real fight. I know--we're really lucky. Unfortunately, this fight is about the Family Proclamation, the last thing I thought we'd ever fight about.

Anyway, for Christmas my sister sent us two matching, very nice frames with a Family Proclamation in one and a picture from our wedding in the other.

Now, it should be said that my wife is the real spiritual fortress in our home. She has been faithful all her life, is a returned missionary, and is just generally a better person than me. I, on the other hand, was inactive for six or seven years, breaking commandments left and right, didn't serve a mission, and still struggle with following some commandments. I try hard and I want to do the right things, but I haven't had the strong spiritual manifestations that my wife has had. I am most definitely in the class of people who are mentioned in D&C (42:7? I'm too lazy to look it up), those who are "given to believe on their words," meaning the ones who know for themselves.

Back to the issue at hand: I want to hang up this photo and Family Proc, but my wife is opposed to hanging the Family Proc prominently in our home. She is in a PhD program, and she is taking a film class this semester. Only 6 people are in the class, so in order to make the class more enjoyable/comfortable, they have decided to rotate among classmember's homes to watch the films. One of the members of the class is gay, and my wife has had many conversations about his feelings towards Christians. He feels that Christians are judgmental towards his lifestyle and consequently, he has a very negative view of Christianity. My wife has tried to send the message that Mormons are not like other Christians (which we're not) and that we don't hate gay people (which we don't).

So the bottom line is that she doesn't want to hang up the Family Proc in the front room because she feels like it has very anti-gay undercurrents and that it will offend her friend and possibly other people in the class. My feeling is that she is worrying too much about the issue: First of all, we have a right to believe what we believe and hang what we want in our home. Second of all, the Family Proclamation is not an anti-gay or even an overtly political statement. It is a beautiful document about the Spiritual aspects of the family. Third of all, the way she treats people is what is going to send the message about what we believe, and her friend may not even read the document (although she's sure he will). Fourth of all, I'm not sure I want someone in my home who would judge me or my wife for stating our beliefs and not backing down because of intimidation from someone with an opposing viewpoint.

Where we left the issue last night is that we can hang it, but when these people come to our home she will simply take it down for a few hours. This honestly bothers me more than not hanging it at all. I was reading the scriptures last night before bed, and I came across this one:

Matthew 5:15

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

I feel like my darling wife is hiding her candlestick. Should I give in one way or another (hang it and take it down, or simply not hang it at all) or should I stand firm, as the eternal family and the sanctity of the family are the most beautiful part of the Gospel for me. It is what drew me back to the Church, and what ultimately encourages me more than anything else to strive to follow the commandments: I don't want to lose my wife and our future kids.

Advice?

Hang it for all to see and when those whom will be offended come over, take it down; in time your wifes heart will have a change.:)

[talisyn]

One thing about hanging it on the wall, it's a great opportunity for people to see why the LDS Church came out in favor of Prop. 8. It could spark dialog. You could even have scripture chases lol. What I find really odd though is your straight and narrow wife is the one who doesn't want the proclamation hanging up. That would be a shiny red flag for me.

[funkenheimer]

A few thoughts I had while reading your post.

-> It is your house and it is up to you and your wife to decide what goes where. I don't think anyone is questioning that

-> Does hanging these now have any affect on your belief in eternal families?

-> If you wait a few months until after your wife is done with her film class, does this mean you believe less in eternal families?

I really don't see the harm in waiting until the class is over to hang these in the family room. If this reduces the stress in your wife's life what is the harm? Ultimately it has no impact on your salvation.

My advice - pick your battles wisely, if it were me - this would not be a battle I would choose. There are much more important decisions you can argue about.

[HiJolly]

Great comments thus far. I would hang them up and then if your wife chooses to take 'em down, I would not resent her decision, but would know that it is her choice and it doesn't mean she's a bad person.

HiJolly

[GaySaint]

Ok, you didn’t ask for the gay perspective, but I’m going to give it to you anyway :)

First of all, I’m not offended at all by the proclamation, except for the few times when I’ve had it throw up in my face as an excuse for people to be jerks to me (at a prop 8 rally I attended here in SLC, there was a rather rude individual who pulled out the proclamation, shoved it in my face, and told me I was going to Hell. I responded rather calmly that although the proclamation affirms doctrine and is a beautiful statement of what he believed the family to be, the document, itself, was not confirmed doctrine per the order laid out in D&C. At this point, he almost hit me. In fairness, perhaps I didn’t come across as calmly as I thought I did, and this man certainly wasn’t going to give me the opportunity to explain).

I really like Just-A-Guy’s suggestion that you hang the document in a private room – but I guarantee that if the guy in the class knows your beliefs, he knows what you may think of gay marriage and the proclamation.

Strangely, I know many people who believe fully in the proclamation, but still support gay [civil] marriage. I don’t think there is as much of a disconnect there as some people think, and if you and your wife feel this way, tell your wife's friend this, and then you have no need to worry about it further.

Maybe your wife could talk to the individual? I’m sure if she asks him his feelings, even if he is angry at the church or anti-LDS, he probably wouldn’t ask her to give up her beliefs for him, especially if he feels at least SOME level of support from her. Perhaps she could tell him that while you have this document hanging in your home, it is a reminder to her of what she wants HER family to become, while recognizing the importance HIS family has to him.

That would be all I would need to hear to feel comfortable.

[Gwen]

i don't think it's a big deal for the wife to take it down. maybe she hasn't discussed anything religious with the guy and would prefer not to. just an avoidance of the topic by not having it. whatever her reasons in the end it's about reducing her stress. it's not about the gay classmate or level of testimony.

i find ppl in general on their own are very understanding and enjoyable to be around. an experience i found kinda funny with it. when i was dating my husband i was taking an ethics class (talk about opportunities to stand out as different). we did a lot of group work and i ended up in a group with a girl that was putting herself through school as a stripper on the beach, a gay girl (found out later that she was raised lds), a single mom that was very open about her exploits with her boyfriend, and a single dad that was living with his girlfriend that was significantly younger than him (could have been her dad). we were an odd mix to say the least. one of the most fun classes i've ever had. so anyway my husband lived 6 hours away from me so our "dating" consisted of full weekend trips. there were obvious assumptions made about this by my other classmates. i found when the jokes or conversations got to anything that was coming to the line of making me uncomfortable, before i would ever have to speak up the gay girl would step in and say "hey, gwen is mormon, change the subject" or "don't tease gwen like that it's not that kind of weekend" she had a very playful but serious way of doing it that ppl heard her but didn't make it awkward. she only had to step up a few times before it became unnecessary. now that's not to say i didn't get an education in a lot of things that yr. lol but over all it was a great experience for me, and i hope it was for them. my husband and i got engaged while i was taking that class and the paperwork (had to get a sealing clearance) was taking to long. the gay girl caught me after class and said, "you want to get them to make the paperwork go faster? i promise you this will work. make an appt with your stake pres and tell him. 'look, i'm staying there on the weekends due to distance and i really want to get married in the temple but the sexual tension is killing me. do you think we can hurry this up any?' it will work i promise, it's the last thing they want to hear".

my point i guess is as long as you aren't being judgmental about it most ppl really are understanding and welcoming. sometimes we work ourselves up into a ball of stress for nothing. help reduce her stress and make this a great experience and memory for her instead of a negative one.

[justaname]

I can see how this would be bothering you, no doubt. But I can also see how this could turn into something much bigger than it needs be. I dont think that there is a right or wrong answer here. There is an opportunity for compromise and to build your communication skills. I truly think that challenges lead to strength in marriage if handled properly. I also believe that a great marriage is one where neither party is afraid to voice their opinion in fear of retribution. If the proclamation goes on the wall or stays down, one of you could easily interpret it as a 'win' or a 'loss'. I hope this isnt the case. I think you both win if you are able to politely share your opinions with one another without feeling resent or a strong disconnect at the end.

My personal feelings about your issue is that if the document is something you both believe in and have a testimony of, then put it on your wall. There is a talk by Elder Bednar that I really love titled "And None Shall Offend Them" that I think maybe you could recommend to your wife. It helps us to understand that we choose to be offended by things, rather than our actions offending others. There is a good chance that if you hang the proclamation, your friend may choose to be offended. But hanging it doesnt mean that you are being offensive. If she is that concerned about offending people, she might as well lock herself in a room and speak to no one. (Yet even that could offend someone). If this guy is the type to be easily offended, your membership in the church has probably already done so.

[WillowTheWhisp]

You could try looking at this from the opposite perspective and ask yourself if you and your wife are offended by the fact that this guy is gay? If the answer is 'no' then surely it works the other way too - he should not be offended by your LDS lifestyle and beliefs. After all he is coming to your home where you are perfectly entitled enjoy your own beliefs and display something which is meaningful to you. It's not as if you are trying to impose those beliefs on anyone else or force them to live by your standards.

Would the person who gave you this gift be offended if it was not displayed? You could always compromise and like Just-A-Guy suggested display the proclamation elsewhere.

[Wingnut]

When I go to a person's home, I look at the things on their walls, because their decor gives a feeling for what they themselves like and are like. If I were to see something like the Proclamation on the Family hanging up, I might read the first paragraph or two before getting bored, especially if I'm there for a specific purpose (schoolwork). I'm not going to stand there staring at a document hanging on the wall long enough to read it and then launch into a tirade. I think your wife is a little overcautious in this situation, but like funkenheimer, it's not a battle I would choose to fight.

[Misshalfway]

There is a time and a place to show people what we believe and why. But I am not sure I would take down a picture of Christ if an athiest or Muslim friend were coming to my home. I would hope they wouldn't take down a statue of Buddha if I came for dinner. When we bring others into our homes, we introduce them to who we are. It's not an indictment of who they are. It shouldn't be made into such.

On the other hand, I am bothered by the implication that not wanting to hang the proclamation is a sign someone is hiding their testimony under a bushel. I am not one to decorate my house like a Deseret Book show room. I don't have, nor do I plan, to display the proclamation in my home. The proclamation, like other doctrines, should be written in our hearts and as I live my religion the best I can I hope that is enough.

I appreciate Loudmouth's balanced comments. He stated it well. What you hang in your home should make you comfortable. If the hanging bothers the hostess, she won't be able to help others feel comfortable.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Misshalfway

[Wingnut]

I am not one to decorate my house like a Deseret Book show room. I don't have, nor do I plan, to display the proclamation in my home. The proclamation, like other doctrines, should be written in our hearts and as I live my religion the best I can I hope that is enough.

Thank you for saying this. I have a Family Proclamation in a picture frame in my living room, but the whole thing feels a little awkward. I can't seem to get it to look right, and it just seems out of place. Your words make sense to me, about keeping the words in my heart, and not necessarily on my wall.

[Wisc]

DB37, if you're still following this thread here is my opinion. Your gay friend is being "who he is" openly and without regret. Your wife has ALREADY shown to him that she can be his friend and openly get along with him for who he is. Dont you think its only right that you and she return the favor? And also dont you think you DESERVE to be able to express who YOU are as well and as openly and without regret just as he?

If you dont display the family proc then several things are happening

1. You are not bearing the name of Christ in all places and at all times.(if you dont display it based on your fear of what others may think )

2. You are allowing yourself to be bent by the will of men.

3. You are not being a good friend to your Gay pal because you are in essence lying to him about who you are. He's been kind enough to show his true colors *no pun intended* so you show yours back. Thats the only way he will see that YOUR colors can still love him dispite the difference in belief.

4. You are allowing the values of an otherwise stranger dictate what goes on in your own home. Right down to what and what not may be hung on your walls!!!

In the words of some wise old men with great tans-- "Be true to your school. Just like you would to your girl."

Edited January 14, 2010 by Wisc

[KayCee]

When we were living in Southern California, I *must* admit that I felt a bit uneasy about displaying the Proclamation on my wall - especially when I'm the only member in my family and when they would come over, inevitably somebody (especially my anti-Mormon cousins) would stop to read it. But they never said anything about it. It's a fabulous missionary tool because truly...the words are inspired and it's a beautiful statement. I enjoy graphic design so for our home and I did a unique "Proclamation" layout that superimposes our family's pic. It has an "old world" look to it to match my decor.

I think "church art" has come a long way in the past couple of decades (Greg Olsen comes to mind) so I'm happy to display pictures not just for their content (like photos of Christ or a temple)...but also for their beautiful artistic value.

[pam]

Greg Olsen as well as my favorite Liz Lemon Swindle.

[Guest]

Guys - your home should be what YOU want it to be and not what your visitors want it to be. When you are "staging" your house for a sale, that's when you make it what a prospective buyer would want the house to be.

So, taking this into mind, this is my 2 cents:

1.) If YOU (as in both your wife and you) want the proclamation in the living room because that's where you think it belongs, then put it there. Do not take it down for visitors - you're not ashamed of it are you? If you have a visitor that is offended by the color red, I highly doubt that you or your wife would bother to repaint the red wall. But, if you feel that the proclamation picture is better displayed in your bedroom then that's where it should go. The house is YOUR home. It should be what YOU like it to be, not what your friends want it to be. If they're offended by it, then they're offended by who you are. Big deal. We are all unique and we'll just have to agree to disagree. If your gay friend can't take it - then it is his problem.

2.) I have a "formal living room". That's where my visitors go when I invite them to the house - that includes salesmen, jehova's witnesses, class group... You can have a formal living room that is a "public" area - that is, a place where people who don't know you too well - and you don't really care to know too well - can be comfortable in. My formal room does not have any family pictures, has muted colors, has a piano for exhibition, no toys, no mess - it would be just like when you go to a model home. Now, my husband did not like anybody going into our house without a glimpse of who we are, so he put a giant-size book of mormon on the coffee table - it has decorative binding that matches the furniture, so it "fits" perfectly with the decor. Everybody who has come into my house either didn't know what it was so they just think it's decor, or they get curious and open it and read the first few pages, or recognizes it and makes a hearty compliment. It is a conversation piece. The Jehova's witnesses that came over noticed it so I ended up talking to them about the Book of Mormon (they know what it is already and tried to discuss how their beliefs contradict with the BOM).

Anyway, the point I'm making is - you will be hiding your light under a bushel if the only reason that the proclamation is not on the wall is because of your wife's classmates. What you should be discussing is if the Proclamation belongs in the room at all. Putting it up then taking it down when visitors come over is cowardice.

[funkenheimer]

DB37, if you're still following this thread here is my opinion. Your gay friend is being "who he is" openly and without regret. Your wife has ALREADY shown to him that she can be his friend and openly get along with him for who he is. Dont you think its only right that you and she return the favor? And also dont you think you DESERVE to be able to express who YOU are as well and as openly and without regret just as he?

If you dont display the family proc then several things are happening

1. You are not bearing the name of Christ in all places and at all times.(if you dont display it based on your fear of what others may think )

2. You are allowing yourself to be bent by the will of men.

3. You are not being a good friend to your Gay pal because you are in essence lying to him about who you are. He's been kind enough to show his true colors *no pun intended* so you show yours back. Thats the only way he will see that YOUR colors can still love him dispite the difference in belief.

4. You are allowing the values of an otherwise stranger dictate what goes on in your own home. Right down to what and what not may be hung on your walls!!!

In the words of some wise old men with great tans-- "Be true to your school. Just like you would to your girl."

I completely disagree. I don't think the commandment to bear the name of Christ hinges on whether or not one displays the family proclamation on the wall. What is in your heart is much more important. I hardly think this qualifies as "being bent by the will of men."

How can you determine by the original post if she is lying about who she is? Maybe they have had discussions about it? They have talked about it at least to some extent.

My 2 cents (again). I, like you, would want to hang it on the wall. But the last thing I would want to do is make my wife feel uncomfortable around her classmates. Express this to her. Trust me, your salvation does not depend on hanging this on the wall.

[somuchtogive]

I know this may be off the original subject but might be at the root of resolution....do you read your scriptures together and pray together every day? If not, I suggest you do. As you read together, you can discuss problems like this easier and with the Spirit to help guide the both of you.

Some things take courage. I hope your wife chooses courage. I'd let her know how grateful you have been of her example to let her light so shine for you and how that has strengthened you. You can apologize for not being the light you should have been in the past and let her know that you want to be.