"We Mormons aren't all that great!"

[Vort]

Someone, typically a Church investigator, will mention how nice all these Mormons are, how polite the children are, how it seems like no one ever gets in trouble -- no cops at the door at 2:00 am, no tales of kids getting suspended from school or bailed out of the hoosegow for a drunken teen party, no worries about high school pregnancies.

And then in comes.

Almost invariably, seemingly like clockwork, someone has to pipe up: "Hey, now, Mormons aren't perfect! Yeah, we have lots and lots of problems! You just don't see them, but believe me, they're there! Fact is, we're just like everyone else!"

What is up with that?

First off, it's obvious that Mormons aren't perfect. Duh. You might as well say the sun rises in the east. No new information there, so why say it?

Secondly, it's a false statement that "Mormons are just like everyone else". Mormons are manifestly not like everyone else. Statistically, Mormons are ahead of the curve in physical and mental health, in education, in life satisfaction, in kids not getting in trouble. To say otherwise is simply false.

Thirdly, what's the point? Are they trying to talk people out of joining the Church? Is this some deeply embedded effort at sabotage? I mean, seriously, these people say, "Hey, you Mormons are nice people," and the response is, "No, we're not!"

I can think of a few possible explanations:

• False modesty. Avoiding bragging and other obnoxiousness is so ingrained into us that we have a knee-jerk response of avoiding legitimate praise. Unfortunately, this backfires when people (who after all are not stupid) see the ridiculousness of our denying these things and decide that maybe we're telling the truth after all -- because who would bother denying something so obvious?

• Overambitious avoidance of hypocrisy. Many Mormons buy into the lie that "hypocrisy" means "saying one thing and doing another". Since Mormons (like any other mortal people) fail to live up to their own lofty standards every waking moment, some are afraid of being tagged with the scarlet 'H', and so are only too willing to deny the good that is done for fear of being "found out" as less than perfect. The irony here is that the deception itself is hypocrisy. Refusing to acknowledge merited praise or truthful recognition of good deeds or works is an intentional putting on of a false face -- and an ugly face, at that. It's as if a beautiful woman, upon being told she's beautiful, immediately scratched up her face, cut off her hair, and spread mud all over her features, then said, "Why, no, I'm not!"

• Inoculation attempt. We see the imperfections in ourselves and our fellow Saints, and we are desperate not to disillusion others who might be looking into the Church. We fear the devastation they might feel upon learning that the Saints are actually human beings and not perfected angels walking among the mortal. So, some of us go a bit (or a lot) overboard in an attempt to make sure our friends and acquaintances don't make the error of overestimating the Saints. Of course, the predictable result is that they will instead underestimate the Saints, deciding (based on our own words) that Mormons are hiding something, that they cannot possibly be as happy as they seem, that it's all just a fraud and that Mormons really are hypocrites. Mission accomplished!

I don't know. I think that, just maybe, we would be much better off learning how to respond to a sincere compliment by saying "Thank you", or maybe even with a short explanation of what our teachings are that help us to be as happy as they perceive us to be (which, in the main, is probably a true perception).

[Backroads]

According to my husband I'm the worst at taking compliments because I respond with things like "I know!" and "I try!"

No one has to be that extreme, but a "thanks" is always a suitable reply. 9/10 times when people stay stuff like this, it's a sincere compliment.

[KrazyKay]

According to my husband I'm the worst at taking compliments because I respond with things like "I know!" and "I try!"

You sound like me... I have been trying to say "thank you" but sometimes without realizing it - especially when someone tells me how mature my 11 year old daughter behaves, I say "I have tried to raise her right" instead of "thank you".

I agree we should simply say "thank you" when someone gives us a compliment.

[JudoMinja]

I think there may be another reason. People have a natural desire to conform and blend in, so perhaps we say we are "just like everyone else" because we do not want to feel alienated, because we do not want to appear or feel like we are so different that others cannot relate to us.

The problem with that though, is that you are right- we are not "just like everyone else". Of course, we have our similarities. We are, afterall human, and have the flaws that come with it. But we are very different from your "typical" non-LDS. Those members who actually adopt the LDS way of living are a "peculiar" people, and we were meant to stand out as different and apart from the world.

[Dravin]

First off, it's obvious that Mormons aren't perfect. Duh. You might as well say the sun rises in the east. No new information there, so why say it?

I think people are trying to inoculate new investigators from when a member or members do eventually disappoint them. Kinda like having a friend point out that no, the girl you are infatuated with does have flaws, she is not perfect and you will eventually find something annoying or difficult about her if you go out with her long enough so be realistic about her 'perfection', she may be great but perfect she is not.

Not sure if it's well advised to do such, but I think that's generally the idea.

Secondly, it's a false statement that "Mormons are just like everyone else". Mormons are manifestly not like everyone else. Statistically, Mormons are ahead of the curve in physical and mental health, in education, in life satisfaction, in kids not getting in trouble. To say otherwise is simply false.

Depends what metrics you use. When combined with pointing out that we aren't perfect I think the idea is to point out "We're imperfect just like everyone else." Not necessarily that "There are no significant difference in LDS populations compared to the general public by any reasonable metric." So it would depend on the context how valid a claim it is.

Thirdly, what's the point? Are they trying to talk people out of joining the Church? Is this some deeply embedded effort at sabotage? I mean, seriously, these people say, "Hey, you Mormons are nice people," and the response is, "No, we're not!"

I think my first response addresses this question.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Dravin

[Traveler]

While discussing Matt 5:48 a few weeks ago our SS gospel doctrine teacher asked if anyone thought they were perfect. An elderly gentleman stood up in the back of the class and raised his hand. Astonished the teacher questioned the gentleman and ask if he understood the question and if he really thought he was perfect. “Oh I understood the question all right”, the old man said. “But it is not for me - I’m just standing here in proxy for my wife’s first husband.

The Traveler

[MorningStar]

I freely admit that we Mormons are pretty nice as a whole, but I do worry about new converts or investigators who put us on a pedastal and the shock they go through when they have their first negative experience with members. In fact, we have some new converts who have drifted because they feel they aren't being served enough (said to one sister while she was serving this woman). Well, we only have so much time and energy like anyone else and we have families who need us.

I agree that when a compliment is given, say "thank you".

[Jamie123]

Well, we only have so much time and energy like anyone else and we have families who need us.

I agree - and this is why other churches have certain dedicated members who engage in what is negatively referred to as "priestcraft" and are supported (directly or indirectly) by the general members' tithes.

The trouble is, these paid clergy are few in number and have a horrendous amount of work dumped on them because the general members think: "It's the vicar's job, not ours!" The Church of England is not as wealthy as it once was and cannot support so many paid clergy, so in some areas a single overworked priest serves 3 or 4 different parishes. That is why lay people are being encouraged to train for unpaid ministry; the ideal situation would be 2 or 3 voluntary unpaid clergy (what we call "readers", "SPA's" and "ordained local ministers") assisting each full-time vicar - but that's often a far-off dream.

The idea of a fully unpaid clergy is further off still, but I suppose the LDS church has shown it could work. And the thought that the vicar "has a day job too" would be a disincentive for people to shirk their fair share of serving others!

[NeuroTypical]

I can think of a few possible explanations:

[*]False modesty.

[*]Overambitious avoidance of hypocrisy.

[*]Inoculation attempt.

I can think of one more:

[*]Innocent ignorance about what we have that others don't. Sometimes, we don't realize what we have. Think about it - peace, love, joy, strength against the world's ills, security in a bright future that spans past physical death - these are blessings most of us can reap (at least partially) in this life. Many of us are reaping them now. We sometimes have no earthly clue how rare these things are in other people's lives. If you've never known what it's like to be starving, how can you realize what a blessing it is, compared to someone standing there starving?

[Guest saintish]

I honestly don’t think we should embrace the "perfect Mormon" image. Yes, perfection is our goal but I’m willing to wager that it’s a far off goal for 80% or more of us.

I can think of far too many times when a new member hear the "perfect Mormon" line and then when someone fails to meet up to that standard they start to ask "well, what else that they say is wrong" and it’s just a downward spiral from there.

[applepansy]

I think there is a difference between false modesty and honesty. I've been in conversations where we've compared trouble with our teenage kids and someone pops up with "Oh, you can't be having that trouble. You're LDS." Responding with just because we're LDS doesn't mean we're perfect isn't false modesty. Its reality.

Yes we are a peculiar people and the stats show that. But I don't know one family today who isn't dealing with some of societies ills right in their own immediate families. Acknowledging that fact isn't

False modesty. Overambitious avoidance of hypocrisy. Inoculation attempt.

[Connie]

So Vort, what should i say if someone says "Connie, you're so perfect"?

[Vort]

So Vort, what should i say if someone says "Connie, you're so perfect"?

Smile knowingly, thank them kindly for their perceptive insight, and change the topic.

[mnn727]

So Vort, what should i say if someone says "Connie, you're so perfect"?

Just say "Thank you, I try really hard but Vort is the perfect one."

[Vort]

Just say "Thank you, I try really hard but Vort is the perfect one."

See, now, that's what I'm talking about.

[mordorbund]

Just say "Thank you, I try really hard but Vort is the perfect one."

I love that Vort is really towing the line here. Everybody else let's loose a chuckle, "hyuck hyuck, you think Vort is perfect," while Vort practices what he preaches. "You think I'm perfect? Well, thank you. I'm flattered you think that."

Well done sir. Well done.

[dahlia]

So, as someone who still feels she is on the outside looking in sometimes, I've admitted on another thread to buying into the perfect Mormon stereotype until I actually met some Mormons. The fact that LDS folks are not perfect (gee, really?) and may have some of the same family problems facing the rest of Western society, didn't phase me that much and didn't put a damper on my feelings about the Church.

I practiced law; I know about human imperfection. I have a grown child who is happy to point out my imperfections to me. My students think I'm perfect (and well they should), but I've probably got some colleagues who don't share their opinion. The world is an imperfect place, what can I say?

None of this diminishes my support for the Church, my belief that being a Mormon does make us different and that difference is good. I don't want to be like everyone else. I don't want my family to be like other families who have little use for each other; even for their small children. I don't want to think that service is something that someone else will do and that I don't need to bother. I don't want to think that being nice and looking out for the other guy somehow makes me a doormat or a wuss.

Are we perfect? Of course not. Are Mormons "all that great"? Yeah, I think so.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I believe the public perception goes for Christians in general. When one makes known that they are a Christian, they are held to a higher standard. Heaven forbid they should slip up and let out a cuss word or (gasp!) have a cold beer after a hard day of work. The expectations can be very unreasonable and worldly people have their hypocrisy detectors on high alert when they know you are Christian. Witnessing under these conditions becomes difficult because while they expect you to hold these standards, doing so gives them the impression that you are aloof from the "real world" where they live. So you're either a hypocrit, or you think you're better than everyone else; take your pick.

[Suzie]

[*]Inoculation attempt. We see the imperfections in ourselves and our fellow Saints, and we are desperate not to disillusion others who might be looking into the Church. We fear the devastation they might feel upon learning that the Saints are actually human beings and not perfected angels walking among the mortal. So, some of us go a bit (or a lot) overboard in an attempt to make sure our friends and acquaintances don't make the error of overestimating the Saints. Of course, the predictable result is that they will instead underestimate the Saints, deciding (based on our own words) that Mormons are hiding something, that they cannot possibly be as happy as they seem, that it's all just a fraud and that Mormons really are hypocrites. Mission accomplished!

Hi Vort. Your thought process on this particular part confuses me a little bit. Personally, I don't think a person will automatically underestimate tthe Saints just because someone may tell them (based on their comments) that Mormons aren't really perfect. Why the extremes?

I rather them to come into terms with the fact that at some point a member may disappoint them or they may see them doing something that goes against the Gospel and know we're just human beings trying to do our very best and we fall...many times. Why let them have the erroneous notion that seems to feed the idea that ALL members are the nicest, the most polite, who never gets in trouble with the police or have a child who is pregnant out of wedlock? I think that's quite dishonest in a way (to let them perpetuate this sort of false belief). I think when people say that "Mormons aren't perfect" (and yes "duh!") they're actually saying "Hey, don't put them in pedestals because you may be disappointed". I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Vort]

Hi Vort. Your thought process on this particular part confuses me a little bit. Personally, I don't think a person will automatically underestimate tthe Saints just because someone may tell them (based on their comments) that Mormons aren't really perfect. Why the extremes?

Because it is what I perceive. It may not be automatic, but it does seem to be common.

I rather them to come into terms with the fact that at some point a member may disappoint them or they may see them doing something that goes against the Gospel and know we're just human beings trying to do our very best and we fall...many times. Why let them have the erroneous notion that seems to feed the idea that ALL members are the nicest, the most polite, who never gets in trouble with the police or have a child who is pregnant out of wedlock? I think that's quite dishonest in a way (to let them perpetuate this sort of false belief). I think when people say that "Mormons aren't perfect" (and yes "duh!") they're actually saying "Hey, don't put them in pedestals because you may be disappointed". I don't see anything wrong with that.

So, then, as I supposed: Inoculation attempt.

If they were saying only what you suggest above, I would have no objection.