Temple confusion

[semodex]

I recently went through the Temple and have a huge amount of confusion on salvation. I don't understand how clothing, signs and tokens can matter when the Savior is The Savior. If I don't have the clothes, signs, tokens and eternal marriage I can't live in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father even though I confess that Jesus Christ is my Savior. Hope someone can clarify things because right now I'm wishing I had never gone to the Temple.

[Jenamarie]

I recently went through the Temple and have a huge amount of confusion on salvation. I don't understand how clothing, signs and tokens can matter when the Savior is The Savior. If I don't have the clothes, signs, tokens and eternal marriage I can't live in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father even though I confess that Jesus Christ is my Savior. Hope someone can clarify things because right now I'm wishing I had never gone to the Temple.

A lot (most?) of what's in the Temple is symbolic. You're right, signs and tokens and clothing don't matter... except to point us to the Savior. Any more than eating a piece of bread and drinking a dinky little cup of water each week has nothing to do with Salvation, except that they point us to the Savior. The symbols (which is what the Sacrament, and the Temple ceremonies are) aren't, in and of themselves, important; it's what they represent (the Atonment, and preparing to enter the Precense of the Lord). They aren't what save us, but they serve to draw us closer to He Who Does.

Keep going to the Temple. Talk with your Bishop. Maybe buy some books from Deseret Book on the subject. Going through the Temple can be overwhelming. It's nothing like our Sunday services. It takes bit of time to adjust to being immersed in such a symbolic ceremony when we're used to a very literal world.

[sister_in_faith]

I think that the first time temple experience is probably not something ANYONE is really prepared for. The thing that got me past my 'run for the hills' feeling was promising myself that I would go back at least 5 times, no matter what, and soon. So I went back, and then again, and my perspective started to change on it. The ceremony was easier to understand, and it is true that you learn something new each time you go. Start doing as many different kind of ordinace work you can, initories are my favorite, sealings, endowments, all of it. And then when you are done, take some well earned time in the celestial room to reflect.

Pray to feel our father's love, see yourself in Heaven with Him. Feel the other spirits around you. Know that you stand on holy ground.

Yes the first time can be a bit over whelming and confusing, but I promise you that if you give it an honest shot, you will come to learn some things that will comfort you and make you very glad that you are an endowed member of our church!!!

Don't let yourself get caught up in the clothes and the actions you preform. Sit back and absorb what is being taught. That is more important. And once I learned the symbolism behind the clothing, I was able to put those concerns aside. Trust me, it gets better!

[Mamas_Girl]

Hi semodex,

Jenamarie recommended that you get a book or two on the topic, may I recommend:

The House of the Lord by Elder James E Talmage and You May Claim the Blessings of The Holy Temple by President Boyd K. Packer. I'm sure others have come out more recently, but these are two classics and are packed with information.

I just saw where Jenamarie also mentioned talking to your bishop, and that's an excellent suggestion. I might also add that if you'd be more comfortable talking to a lady, talk to your Relief Society president -- I've seen that suggested a number of times for various things like this.

As sister_in_faith said, it does get easier, really! :)

Edited November 30, 2011 by Mamas_Girl

[annewandering]

I was told that any questions I had to ask a temple worker in the temple. It is better to talk about it there than outside.

[james12]

Truman G. Madsen once talked about ritual and symbolism in a talk entitled "House of Glory". I don't have the talk right in front of me so I will just paraphrase his ideas in the first two paragraphs and then give you a few of my own...

Separate The Symbol From The Symbolized: Sometimes as members we have a hard time with ritual. We cannot get past the symbol. This of course includes clothing and other actions. Brother Madsen says we are in essence throwing out the baby with the bath water. We don't believe in "pagan ritual" but we do believe that God has revealed certain ordinances, certain rights and rituals anew.

Ordinances Are Eternal: Ordinances are vital to salvation. The Lord has said, "Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live" (D&C 84:20-22). You cannot receive the power of godliness except through ordinances! God has establish certain symbols, certain rights of passage that are necessary to enable a person to reach the Father. The more I study the more I believe these ordinance are eternal. They are and ever will be gates through which one must ascend to receive exaltation.

Ordinances Are Participatory: Almost all ordinances are more than just listening. They are active and participatory. Baptism and the sacrament are good examples. We do not merely listen but we are lowered in the water, we eat of the bread. The ordinances in the temple are no more "strange" then what happens with these ordinances. We are simply used to them.

Covenants Make Ordinances Precious: What makes baptism and the sacrament meaningful is the covenant. Temple ordinances are the same. Covenants cannot be separated from saving ordinances and saving ordinances from covenants. Truly honor the covenant and the ordinances are sacred. Without the the heart they are mere forms.

I could go on explaining but ultimately one must feel for themselves the truth of these things. If you keep going with the right attitude I promise you your feelings will change.

[applepansy]

The Bishop and Relief Society President are good resources for you regarding the temple. However, Because of the sacred nature of the ordinances there are some things that can only be discussed in the temple. That is why the matrons are there. Ask for help in understanding. Don't be afraid to ask. Asking is how we learn. The matrons are there to answer questions not just usher people from place to place.

I agree with Sister-in-faith, go back to the temple often. The more you go the more you'll understand and the symbolism will become more beautiful as time goes by.

[Guest]

Keep going.

[semodex]

So our definition of salvation (living with Heavenly Father...where we end up) is different? We have to do all these things in order to be with Him?

Thank you everyone for trying to help me understand!

[estradling75]

So our definition of salvation (living with Heavenly Father...where we end up) is different? We have to do all these things in order to be with Him?

Thank you everyone for trying to help me understand!

Semodex you are running into the the very common combining of two different terms that we Mormons do. We in most cases equate Salvation with Exaltation. They are not the same, but it is a common combination that we do... We even have GAs that say "Salvation without Exaltation might as well be Damnation." This makes perfect sense according to how Mormons in general understand the various terms... But appears quite oxymoronic to anyone that doesn't use the terms the way we do.

The Temple is about gaining Exaltation not Salvation, this is in spite of our habits of combining the two concepts.

[applepansy]

Semodex you are running into the the very common combining of two different terms that we Mormons do. We in most cases equate Salvation with Exaltation. They are not the same, but it is a common combination that we do... We even have GAs that say "Salvation without Exaltation might as well be Damnation." This makes perfect sense according to how Mormons in general understand the various terms... But appears quite oxymoronic to anyone that doesn't use the terms the way we do.

The Temple is about gaining Exaltation not Salvation, this is in spite of our habits of combining the two concepts.

Very good point.

[Blackmarch]

I recently went through the Temple and have a huge amount of confusion on salvation. I don't understand how clothing, signs and tokens can matter when the Savior is The Savior. If I don't have the clothes, signs, tokens and eternal marriage I can't live in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father even though I confess that Jesus Christ is my Savior. Hope someone can clarify things because right now I'm wishing I had never gone to the Temple.

Ditto what Jena said.

God uses symbolism to teach us important things. I'd suggest sitting down and first start thinking about the sacrament- Why do we do it? Why is it important? THen think about baptism, why is it important? and why do we do it?

and finally what is it tryint to teach me?

Then as we go throught the temple maybe after you have gone through the ceremonies, choose one to remember and ponder about, and ask those same questions. As we go back to the temple, it might help to think about one of the ceremonies and those questions as we go throught them. You may also want to study the sections in Genesis, Moses, and book of Abraham that cover many of the parts that are touched upon within the temple.

Now the sacrament is very symbolic but it's short and brief as is baptism, whereas the Just about everything that happens in the temple is layered with symbolism, and unless you're a recent convert from catholicism or from some other culture that uses a lot of rite and ritual, the temple is going to seem very weird just because generally we aren't in a culture or populace that really understands rite and ritual and where everything has to be intellectually explained. It's a little like going from drinking a few drops of water to try drinking up a river.

[Guest gopecon]

We are saved according to the covenants that we have made and kept. Baptism is where we make the first covenant. Being faithful to this covenant (repentance, enduring to the end) qualifies us for the Celestial Kingdom. We are told in the D&C that there are 3 degrees in the Celestial Kingdom. In order to enter the highest we must enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. This highest degree is what is referred to as exaltation. We will still be with our Heavenly Father in the other 2 levels, and it is faith in Jesus that is needed to get us anywhere in the Celestial Kingdom.

[AGStacker]

I just went through this month and even though I don't understand it all I definitely felt the Spirit many times throughout the process. Going through my first time I felt it most when I first arrived and when I was sitting in the Celestial room.

[sister_in_faith]

I don't know if this would help at all, but I am thinking about how I most enjoy the endowment. When I go in, I go into my 'sponge' mode. I don't think about what I know is coming, I try to watch it like I'm seeing it all for the first time. I don't think about what is happening while it is happening, I try to be like a little child seeing it all for the first time.

I always sit in the back so I don't feel like people are watching me. That just makes ME more comfortable. I literally sit back in a comfortable position and open my mind. I let feelings and thoughts just wash over me.

EVERY time I go, I recognize something new. The spirit teaches you.

I kept studying about the temple and symbolism. I walked around the temple trying to find as many symbolic things as I could. I walked around the celestial room, played with the flowers, got on my hands and knees and felt the shaping in the carpet (when no one else is there, of course), and looked at all the windows. I stop and study the paintings, and sit in different seats. I totally love the temple experience. And if you let yourself continue to go and let the things that seeem strange loose their strangeness, then you will find that you enjoy the experience, and will start learning the things you want to learn.

Trust me! Promise yourself that you will go back 5 times in the next 2 months. NO MATTER WHAT. You won't be sorry!

[sister_in_faith]

Another suggestion... If the endowment is a little overwhelming right now, go in and do initories. I LOVE doing that. It is such a BEAUTIFUL ordinance. And then you can go into the celestial room and chill afterwards. You still get the temple experience, but you don't have to take as much time as you would doing an endowment session.

just a thought

[semodex]

Another suggestion... If the endowment is a little overwhelming right now, go in and do initories. I LOVE doing that. It is such a BEAUTIFUL ordinance. And then you can go into the celestial room and chill afterwards. You still get the temple experience, but you don't have to take as much time as you would doing an endowment session.

just a thought

That is a good idea.....thank you

[rameumptom]

I suggest you read one of my recent posts regarding the Book of Revelation - Sunday School class. It goes into detail of white clothing, new names, tokens, and many other things that you don't seem to understand. All of this is important to God, as he expressed it to the apostle John.

http://www.lds.net/forums/new-testament/43568-new-testament-gospel-doctrine-lesson-45-he-overcometh-shall-inherit-all-things-rev-1-4-a.html

Also, many Mormons use the term "saved" differently than the rest of Christianity. There are two forms of being "saved" in Mormonism. The first saved is similar to that of all other Christian churches, being rescued from hell and damnation through the atoning blood of Christ - what is called justification. In this, when we believe and repent, we are made sinless in Christ.

Mormons also understand levels of salvation, such as the three degrees of glory or heaven. So, there are levels of salvation, with the highest level being exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. This is a process called "sanctification" (Paul discusses both in Romans, and I also discuss it in the Sunday School post on Romans). Sanctification is where we not only become sinless/guiltless through Christ's atonement, but where we become holy. The level of holiness we achieve here and in the Spirit World will determine our final kingdom of glory. It is a line upon line process: as we increase in faith, we increase in the amount of the Holy Spirit is with us. We desire to be obedient, to make and keep covenants, and learn the things we need to know and do to be more Christ-like. The temple ordinances and teachings help us to be more like Jesus and Heavenly Father, and prepare us to return into their presence. IOW, the temple is not necessary for justification to be saved, but it is necessary in our path of sanctification to become exalted.

Edited December 1, 2011 by rameumptom

[HEthePrimate]

A lot (most?) of what's in the Temple is symbolic. You're right, signs and tokens and clothing don't matter... except to point us to the Savior. Any more than eating a piece of bread and drinking a dinky little cup of water each week has nothing to do with Salvation, except that they point us to the Savior. The symbols (which is what the Sacrament, and the Temple ceremonies are) aren't, in and of themselves, important; it's what they represent (the Atonment, and preparing to enter the Precense of the Lord). They aren't what save us, but they serve to draw us closer to He Who Does.

I agree with Jenamarie. It's not the clothing, or even the ordinances that save us, but Jesus Christ. However, the symbols and ordinances can be beautiful and useful for teaching us about the Savior and helping us draw closer to Him.

Peace to you, my friend. :)

HEP

[MrShorty]

It's not the clothing, or even the ordinances that save us, but Jesus Christ. However, the symbols and ordinances can be beautiful and useful for teaching us about the Savior and helping us draw closer to Him.

It seems to me that this is exactly what Abinadi was trying to teach in Mosiah 12 and 13. To paraphrase:

Abinadi: Does salvation come by the law of Moses?

Priests: Yes.

Abinadi: I know it is important to be obedient, but salvation does not come by the law alone, but through the atonement of Christ. Without His atonement, we must all perish in spite of our obedience to the law.

Sometimes it seems that as LDS we can get a little too caught up in our "performances and ordinances" that we forget that these things are there to point us to Christ as the author and finisher of our salvation.

[Jezebel2011]

Hi semodex,

Jenamarie recommended that you get a book or two on the topic, may I recommend:

The House of the Lord by Elder James E Talmage and You May Claim the Blessings of The Holy Temple by President Boyd K. Packer. I'm sure others have come out more recently, but these are two classics and are packed with information.

I just saw where Jenamarie also mentioned talking to your bishop, and that's an excellent suggestion. I might also add that if you'd be more comfortable talking to a lady, talk to your Relief Society president -- I've seen that suggested a number of times for various things like this.

As sister_in_faith said, it does get easier, really! :)

I have to say that both of those books are just superb!

[bytor2112]

I suggest you read one of my recent posts regarding the Book of Revelation - Sunday School class. It goes into detail of white clothing, new names, tokens, and many other things that you don't seem to understand. All of this is important to God, as he expressed it to the apostle John.

http://www.lds.net/forums/new-testament/43568-new-testament-gospel-doctrine-lesson-45-he-overcometh-shall-inherit-all-things-rev-1-4-a.html

Also, many Mormons use the term "saved" differently than the rest of Christianity. There are two forms of being "saved" in Mormonism. The first saved is similar to that of all other Christian churches, being rescued from hell and damnation through the atoning blood of Christ - what is called justification. In this, when we believe and repent, we are made sinless in Christ.

Mormons also understand levels of salvation, such as the three degrees of glory or heaven. So, there are levels of salvation, with the highest level being exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. This is a process called "sanctification" (Paul discusses both in Romans, and I also discuss it in the Sunday School post on Romans). Sanctification is where we not only become sinless/guiltless through Christ's atonement, but where we become holy. The level of holiness we achieve here and in the Spirit World will determine our final kingdom of glory. It is a line upon line process: as we increase in faith, we increase in the amount of the Holy Spirit is with us. We desire to be obedient, to make and keep covenants, and learn the things we need to know and do to be more Christ-like. The temple ordinances and teachings help us to be more like Jesus and Heavenly Father, and prepare us to return into their presence. IOW, the temple is not necessary for justification to be saved, but it is necessary in our path of sanctification to become exalted.

Off topic...but in reading your gospel doctrine lesson (very good by the way) you say that the Tree of Life is a representation of the Mother of God? (Mary?) Do you conclude this because Nephi is shown her in vision or? The scriptures say love of God......

[rameumptom]

Anciently, the wife or consort of God (often named Asherah, aka Wisdom, Sophia, etc), represented love, fertility and wisdom. Mary symbolized our Heavenly Mother. You can read a bit about her in Proverbs 8.

Daniel Peterson wrote on this in an article entitled, "Nephi and his Asherah."

And Margaret Barker spoke on it at the 2005 Joseph Smith Symposium at the Library of Congress (session 2)

[mrmarklin]

I recently went through the Temple and have a huge amount of confusion on salvation. I don't understand how clothing, signs and tokens can matter when the Savior is The Savior. If I don't have the clothes, signs, tokens and eternal marriage I can't live in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father even though I confess that Jesus Christ is my Savior. Hope someone can clarify things because right now I'm wishing I had never gone to the Temple.

None of the clothing etc has anything to do with your salvation. But remember the temple is a learning experience, and all these things are there to reinforce what you are learning in the ceremonies. We not only learn with our ears, but also our eyes and actions etc.

[Vort]

I recently went through the Temple and have a huge amount of confusion on salvation. I don't understand how clothing, signs and tokens can matter when the Savior is The Savior. If I don't have the clothes, signs, tokens and eternal marriage I can't live in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom with Heavenly Father even though I confess that Jesus Christ is my Savior. Hope someone can clarify things because right now I'm wishing I had never gone to the Temple.

You take the sacrament every week. How can eating a tiny piece of bread and drinking a little cup of water matter when the Savior is the Savior?

God gives us truths in symbolism to allow us to learn to understand things that we don't have words or ideas for in our normal language and lives. If you think the temple endowment is all about robes and tokens, you are entirely missing the point. These symbolic elements are important, even necessary, but not because they secure salvation in themselves -- any more than a tiny piece of bread and sip of water have any saving power in themselves.