The Family

[Anddenex]

There may be hope for you yet.

Maybe... a pinch.

[Dravin]

I think I know where his line of logic is coming from.

Do you remember this?

http://rumorfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/kim-kardashian.jpg

Essentially, the logic is that if gay marriage devalues marriage, why doesn't marriage to criminals, abusers etc.

This logic still presupposes that sinners getting married is the ultimate issue and I don't think it is. The opposition to same-sex marriage, while underlain by the idea of such unions being a sin, is to prevent the societal and legal redefinition of marriage. If the issue is that same-sex marriage takes marriage which is seen as written in stone and rewrites it on water, opens it up to redefinition as fits the whims of society then it accomplishes something that an abusive drunk being married does not. The concern is society fundamentally changing the way in which it views marriage.

Note I'm not trying to argue that you must see it in this light, but if we're going to talk about the Church's stance on the issue then casting it as, "Somewhere there are married people sinning, this is the fundamental problem." is a mischaracterization, at least to my understanding.

[BadWolf]

Should this be a surprise recognizing the individual who shares this has the word "Bad" as part of their username??

Also, since dogs evolved from wolves, is it appropriate to say "Bad...Dog"?

If anyone is not able to tell, I am jesting with BadWolf.

ROFL

Just doing my part to make sure Rose can save the Doctor! (And the known universe ; )

Back awaaaaaay with that rolled up newspaper.

[rayhale]

I think I know where his line of logic is coming from.

Do you remember this?

http://rumorfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/kim-kardashian.jpg

Essentially, the logic is that if gay marriage devalues marriage, why doesn't marriage to criminals, abusers etc.

The correct answer, I think, is people who abuse their spouses and families DO devalue marriage. But you can't exactly identify the abusers ahead of time. I have to say, if people declared there intent to abuse their spouse ahead of time, I'd have no problem with preventing the marriage.

So if you feel that gay marriage is wrong, and people have to proactively declare their sexual orientation before getting married, then it isn't nearly as hard to identify the gay marriages as it is to identify the abusive marriages. that's kind of where the logic falls apart. As far as reasons for supporting same sex marriage, I don't think this hold water very well. But this has never been a logical issue for most people.

Yes, this is my line of thinking, especially since one of the things said during the Prop 8 battle, was that gays thought marriage is a right, which it is not.

This logic still presupposes that sinners getting married is the ultimate issue and I don't think it is. The opposition to same-sex marriage, while underlain by the idea of such unions being a sin, is to prevent the societal and legal redefinition of marriage. If the issue is that same-sex marriage takes marriage which is seen as written in stone and rewrites it on water, opens it up to redefinition as fits the whims of society then it accomplishes something that an abusive drunk being married does not. The concern is society fundamentally changing the way in which it views marriage.

Note I'm not trying to argue that you must see it in this light, but if we're going to talk about the Church's stance on the issue then casting it as, "Somewhere there are married people sinning, this is the fundamental problem." is a mischaracterization, at least to my understanding.

I understand what you are saying, Dravin. Marriage is one of, if not THE, most important aspects of society, so if someone alters its definition, it should be seriously looked at as a threat to society.

Edited March 16, 2013 by rayhale
Spelling

[BadWolf]

So are you saying that those Latter-day Saints who do NOT support same sex marriage are not faithful?

No. Of course not.

The OP came to the conclusion/or posed the question that as a faithful Latter Day Saint, they must oppose same sex marriage laws being enacted (as Im sure, do many). I come to the opposite conclusion. As, Im sure, do many.

The reasons I listed were mine. I cannot, in good conscience, believe or act otherwise.

That hardly means that my way is the only way, and disparages everyone else's beliefs that disagree with mine. 'Reasonable people can and do differ'. Especially in politics & parenting.

2 faithful people can have differing political views, without it making one persons faith null and void. We are using the same principles to come to two separate conclusions.

[carlimac]

Ok, now I'm going off topic a bit. I believe there are many things that can disrupt family happiness more quickly than two gays calling their relationship "marriage". Yeah that's problematic in many cases, especially if there are kids involved in the mix. But what about:

-Ugly divorces

-Overly controlling parents forcing their kids to live an uber Mormon lifestyle.

-Not allowing the use of social media or cell phones AT ALL

-Parents who are hypocrits

-Parents who verbally abuse their children or withhold love at appropriate times

-Dads (or moms) who are involved in porn

-Parents who give their kids EVERYTHING and never require anything from them

-A parent having an extramarital affair

-A parent sexually abusing a child

-Parents who let their kids run wild with no consequences

-Parents who don't follow through with threats of consequences.

-Etc, etc, etc

All this stuff happens inside the home and affects kids directly. Gay marriage is something that is external. Yes it makes us uncomfortable and perhaps sad that they just don't "get" eternal marriage ideals and all that. And yes that is ultimately important. But more kids and families are going to be negatively affected- families going down the toilet by things going on under their own roofs than under the roof of "married" gays. In a way I almost think gay marriage could be used as a tool of Satan to distract us from our own family issues that are far more destructive to our own kids. I'm afraid it's easy to become obssessed with what some other random folks sins are and forget to keep our own lives in order.

[Vort]

I don't understand the "logic" being displayed here. There are worse things than homosexual "marriage". So, therefore, homosexual "marriage" is okay?

News flash: There are worse things than forcible rape, too. Ergo...?

[carlimac]

I don't understand the "logic" being displayed here. There are worse things than homosexual "marriage". So, therefore, homosexual "marriage" is okay?

News flash: There are worse things than forcible rape, too. Ergo...?

Was this directed to my post? If so, I never said homosexual marriage is OK. It's not. But I don't really believe gays marrying can damage my own family. I need to be proactive in teaching my children right from wrong and then be a good example and leader for them. My own kids- my own family will be OK whether gays marry or not.

I also don't think most gays are likely to marry someone of the opposite sex. ( Some will of course.) I believe those with same gender attraction who are solid members of the church will either not marry at all or will give marriage a go and make the best of it. And hopefully have successful famlies. So really, very few LDS marriages are impacted by gay marriage.

Gays who aren't members of the church are pretty likely to partner up with one or many partners over the course of their lives anyway. So whether or not we call their relationship "marriage" doesn't make a ton of difference. They are still acting in sin. The biggest problem I see is when they bring children into their partnership. THAT is a big problem because of the implications of teaching the wrong thing (relativism) to kids by example and bringing them up without a parent of one gender or another BY CHOICE.

But then again, relatively few children (compared to all the children in the world) will ever be directly affected by gays marrying. Even one is too many, but honestly there are worse conditions a kid could grow up in. I agree with who ever said that we need to focus on our own famlies and keeping them safe and teaching them eternal principles. If they know what's right, they will go on to have righteous families themselves and be untouched by someone elses wickedness. The fact that my friend's parent drank alcohol, coffee and smoked didn't affect my testimony at all.

Edited March 16, 2013 by carlimac

[talisyn]

My church may refuse to marry anyone it chooses...

But my government better not!

BW

This sums up my view. My 13 yr old and I were discussing this the other day, she couldn't understand how I can be against gay marriage, and for gay marriage, all at the same time. I had to explain that this life has many challenges for us, and some will be challenged by same-sex attraction. These people want love and to be loved, and it's very hard when there is no really good secular reason for them to not marry and then be prohibited from marrying. It's up to us as Saints to tell the world about the plan of salvation, the eternal nature of the family, and God's love for His children so that everyone can make up their own mind knowing all the facts. She said that made it hard for us, too, because we then look like the bad guys.

Educating others is how I fight the good fight.

Edited March 16, 2013 by talisyn

[Traveler]

Wow - Some interesting thought!

First thought - All that any law is - is the power of any government to enforce one segment of the population's morals upon all the rest of the citizens. All laws are a direct reflection of morals. There is no other possibility - does anyone actually believe that we can change the universal gravitational constant by passing a law? Also what point would there be to bass a law concerning a moral for which the entire population already agreed to? No the only reason to pass a law is to get others to live by the morals of those with power to pass laws.

Second thought - in all the discussions no one has ever answered one particular question - what possible benefit is there for society in accepting same sex marriage? The only responses I have ever received Vort has already addressed in this thread - if it is better that something worse? That is not a benefit.

Third thought - Why should I care as long as I take care of my marriage and my family. This was the doctrine of the foolish Germans that believe as long as the Nazis were killing Jews - why should Christians care?

Firth thought - one good question in discerning good and evil and if you personally are looking for a difference between doing good or evil consider asking the question - If everyone did it would it still be good. or if everyone did not do it would there be any evil. I submit that if everyone were to assume the persona of homosexual - the human race would end in one generation. Is is not good. And to the contrary - if everyone was to assume the persona of heterosexual - that in 10,000 generations no one would find even a single disadvantage. Why fight against heterosexuality as the better of the two and the absolutely necessity in order for human survival?

The Traveler

Edited March 16, 2013 by Traveler

[Connie]

Same-sex marriage may not be a threat to my own marriage, but that doesn't mean it's not a threat to marriage in general.

Just a thought.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Traveler. I hope you are having a good day! :)

Third thought - Why should I care as long as I take care of my marriage and my family. This was the doctrine of the foolish Germans that believe as long as the Nazis were killing Jews - why should Christians care?

No matter how benign or rational the usage, may I politely ask that we refrain from any Nazi references in this thread?

Any reductio ad hitlerum or anything like unto it will in all likelihood result in derailing the intent and purpose of this thread.

It just will.

Regards,

Finrock

[MorningStar]

Of course same sex marriage isn't a thread to my marriage. It degrades marriage in general and affects our whole society. On one hand, we have the heterosexuals who have decided that marriage is just a piece of paper, so you might as well just live together. On the other, we have homosexuals who want society to validate their choices and are trying to use marriage to do so. I'm not going to play into the delusion that what they are doing is natural, normal, right, and no different than what heterosexuals do.

Other attacks on marriage include addiction, abuse, adultery, etc. The majority of children are now born out of wedlock.

[Traveler]

Good afternoon Traveler. I hope you are having a good day! :)

No matter how benign or rational the usage, may I politely ask that we refrain from any Nazi references in this thread?

Any reductio ad hitlerum or anything like unto it will in all likelihood result in derailing the intent and purpose of this thread.

It just will.

Regards,

Finrock

Sorry - but you misunderstood - my reference is not to what the Nazis did but what others did (and the danger in thinking it is not necessary to stand up for things not beneficial for society) and how historical examples chang by thinking no action need be taken until it adversely affects me.

[Just_A_Guy]

IMHO: The idea of marriage being "threatened" doesn't get a whole lot of mileage for me. My own perception is that the state doesn't recognize and incentivize marriage because government bureaucrats are hopeless romantics; it (the state, acting on behalf of society as a whole) recognizes marriage because it gains something from that union. Under that analysis, I think it is quite fair to ask whether the state receives the same benefit from a gay (or polygamous, or some other form of) marriage that it does from a straight monogamous marriage.

My primary concern with state-sanctioned gay marriage is that, once in place, it will be used to create a culture in which socially conservative organizations and individuals can be bludgeoned into compliance--or at least, into silence.

[carlimac]

Here's a good explanation for why traditional marriage is important.

Why Marriage Matters: Consequences of Redefining Marriage

[MarginOfError]

To show another side of the argument, the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of same sex marriage yesterday.

Technical Report

[Anddenex]

Here is the best explanation as to why traditional marriage, between a husband and wife should only be supported:

WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children...

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose...

We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife...

THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity...

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets... (emphasis added in some parts)

Same sex marriage is one of the threats forewarned by our prophets which brings the disintegration of the family, inhibits children from their entitlement to be reared by a mother and father, and will bring the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

[The Folk Prophet]

The power of the adversary's lies is astounding.

I cannot understand believing it has no harm. Let's just let people do any evil thing they want, as long as they don't hurt anyone, then the depravity won't matter? Moreover, let's proclaim it and celebrate it as human-rights and justice for all. It won't leak into people's thinking and value systems? It will have no power to seep into the fabric of our sensibilities and our children's sensibilities? No strength to allow further encroachment on the rights of religion and truth? Really? How anyone can fail to find this self-evident within the scope of gospel doctrines... I'm baffled by this thinking.

The only valid argument for not fighting against gay marriage is to accept that it is not harmful. And outside the church, I can see that. With no moral understanding of family, sexual relations, gender roles, etc., sure...why not think it's no problem? Within the church, however, these things have been taught pretty plainly.