Official church resources for those who have doubts?

[estradling75]

Does God change? was it once a good idea and then a bad one?

 

I believe in President McKay's account, I also think that the political climate of the time did not allow for it to take place

 

That is what I am asking you because you are making for a very changeable God...

 

I accept that political climate can cause God to give instructions that he later revokes...  But I can not accept the idea that political climate regarding race some how got worse between Young and McKay.  That flies in the face of everything we know about race relationships for the last 200 years.

 

Let break it down... First you appear to make the claim that Young is that did the Ban.  God let him because apparently the political climate wasn't an issue and God is a hands off kind of guy.

 

Then McKay come along and wants to remove the ban but God says no.  Because now God is a hands on kind of Guy and/or the Church is in some kind of danger in getting out ahead of the race issue. (Really???  seriously???)

 

Then Kimball comes along and also wants to remove the ban and God says yes.  (In a very hands on kind of way from the reports I have read)

 

That is somehow the easier and more understandable then Brigham taking a problem to God and God giviing him a answer and then holding the church to that answer until God says it is Ok to stop?

[The Folk Prophet]

Does God let us as mortal men make mistakes and allow us to correct them later? Yes

 

Do mortal men lead the church? Yes

 

Was the church led astray from its divine purpose as a result of the ban? No

 

So if the church was not led astray as a result of the ban, is it not possible that God let Brigham Young make a mistake? Or is it not possible that Brigham did not heed the counsel of God? I'm sure that has never happened to a prophet before. Some mistakes are hard to undo and once they become policy are even harder to rectify. 

 

This is besides my point. My point is simple. God is in charge. His will runs the church, not imperfect mortal men's.

[The Folk Prophet]

Does God change? was it once a good idea and then a bad one?

 

Like Polygamy?

[The Folk Prophet]

to preach the freaking Gospel.

 

Yes. I believe that is how I also learned this mission of the church. Along with perfect the stinking saint saints and redeem the blankity dead.

[The Folk Prophet]

I am a believer, and I do have a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, but I also believe that God lets us choose our path, we have the building blocks, the foundation, the tools necessary to find our way back to him. Those that think that God is involved in our everyday decision making process may be disillusioned to find out that he is not. 

 

If you think that he truly is then ask yourself this: why is there disease? why do people turn from the truth when they hear it? why is there famine, death, murder etc, etc.... the list can go on and on. He "God" lets us work 99% of things out for ourselves

 

This entire premise is precisely opposite of what I have been taught and believe to be true. It's also a pretty sad way to look at things.

 

Yes, God lets us choose our own paths. That is agency. but He is, without a doubt, involved in our everyday decision making processes if we only will let Him be.

 

But what does disease, murder, famine and death have to do with that? Your logic here is escaping me.

 

When I am diseased, I surely expect the Lord to comfort me. When I face famine, His guidance will help me through. When death or murder come into my life, by and through His grace I will be upheld, maintain my faith, and be give specific, direct counsel on how to act and respond.

 

Oh yes, the Lord will be with me in every instance of pain and difficulty if I will turn to Him. He has promised this. And I believe it.

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes. I believe that is how I also learned this mission of the church. Along with perfect the stinking saint saints and redeem the blankity dead.

 

Ah, I see you learned them from J. Golden Kimball as well. 

[omegaseamaster75]

Do you have a source for this?

 

M.

 Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:206.

 

The guy built a distillery, never sold a drop or produced any so he claims. Have you ever been to the beehive house in Utah? It's been 20 years since I went and the number of wine decanters decorating the place went well beyond recreational usage. Things may have changed since.

 

Is it so hard to believe that our prophets were fallible and made mistakes, that they we encumbered by the plague of a mortal body with mortal weaknesses like we are?

[omegaseamaster75]

That is what I am asking you because you are making for a very changeable God...

 

I accept that political climate can cause God to give instructions that he later revokes...  But I can not accept the idea that political climate regarding race some how got worse between Young and McKay.  That flies in the face of everything we know about race relationships for the last 200 years.

 

Let break it down... First you appear to make the claim that Young is that did the Ban.  God let him because apparently the political climate wasn't an issue and God is a hands off kind of guy.

 

Then McKay come along and wants to remove the ban but God says no.  Because now God is a hands on kind of Guy and/or the Church is in some kind of danger in getting out ahead of the race issue. (Really???  seriously???)

 

Then Kimball comes along and also wants to remove the ban and God says yes.  (In a very hands on kind of way from the reports I have read)

 

That is somehow the easier and more understandable then Brigham taking a problem to God and God giviing him a answer and then holding the church to that answer until God says it is Ok to stop?

examine the history of the civil rights movement and David O Mckay's timing. President McKay may have been a forward thinker and saw the political and social winds changing but was told to wait.

 

Sometimes when a decision is made good or bad you have to stick to your guns until the time is perfect to make the change.

 

1954

In Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, the Supreme Court overturns the principle of "separate but equal"

1955

Rosa Parks begins the Montgomery Bus Boycott

1957

President Dwight Eisenhower sends U.S. Army troops to Little Rock, Arkansas, to enforce the desegregation of schools

1957

Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) founded to coordinate localized southern efforts to fight for civil rights

1960

Sit-in at the F. W. Woolworth lunch counter in Greensboro, February 1

1960

Hundreds of university students stage a sit-in at downtown stores in Nashville, Tennessee, to protest segregated lunch counters

1960

Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) founded to coordinate student-led efforts to end segregation

1960

Civil Rights Act reaffirms voting rights for all Americans

[Blackmarch]

as for resources i've enjoyed help from  http://www.fairmormon.org/  a few times.

[The Folk Prophet]

 Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:206.

 

The guy built a distillery, never sold a drop or produced any so he claims. Have you ever been to the beehive house in Utah? It's been 20 years since I went and the number of wine decanters decorating the place went well beyond recreational usage. Things may have changed since.

 

Is it so hard to believe that our prophets were fallible and made mistakes, that they we encumbered by the plague of a mortal body with mortal weaknesses like we are?

 

This is evidence that Brigham Young was an alcoholic? You have an interesting sense of logic. Which I've noticed usually goes something along the lines of the worst-case version that puts the church and its leaders in the most negative light, whiles still somehow barely clinging on to "the church is true". I have to wonder why your sense of logic constantly takes you there. I think this reply speaks volumes more about you than it does about Brigham Young's drinking habits though.

[estradling75]

 

examine the history of the civil rights movement and David O Mckay's timing. President McKay may have been a forward thinker and saw the political and social winds changing but was told to wait.

 

Sometimes when a decision is made good or bad you have to stick to your guns until the time is perfect to make the change.

 

1954

In Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, the Supreme Court overturns the principle of "separate but equal"

1955

Rosa Parks begins the Montgomery Bus Boycott

1957

President Dwight Eisenhower sends U.S. Army troops to Little Rock, Arkansas, to enforce the desegregation of schools

1957

Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) founded to coordinate localized southern efforts to fight for civil rights

1960

Sit-in at the F. W. Woolworth lunch counter in Greensboro, February 1

1960

Hundreds of university students stage a sit-in at downtown stores in Nashville, Tennessee, to protest segregated lunch counters

1960

Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) founded to coordinate student-led efforts to end segregation

1960

Civil Rights Act reaffirms voting rights for all Americans

 

 

Indeed all pointing to Race relations going from terrible to better over time.  Thank you for making my point quite clearly.  Nothing you cited would have even been remotely thinkable 50 years earlier.  Whatever logic, justification, rationalization, and/or reasoning you give to support McKay...  They are equally capable of supporting Young.   With the exception of a document were Young claims he talked to God about it and then acted according to instruction.  We lack that (and it is why this is even open to debate really) but all the social context were the same or worst in Young's day

[omegaseamaster75]

Brigham Young was a great man, a true prophet of God.

 

You can stick your head in the sand about his flaws, but to me his flaws make him more real and the accomplishments of his life more important.

Edited October 14, 2014 by omegaseamaster75

[Just_A_Guy]

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:206.

 

The guy built a distillery, never sold a drop or produced any so he claims. Have you ever been to the beehive house in Utah?

 

Here's the full quote from President Young:

 

From the beginning I have striven with my might to get men to bring machinery into the country, to get them to raise sheep and wool, have the wool made into cloth and then wear it. Who has followed my example in this? Instead of bringing in machinery and in every way within my power encouraging home production, suppose I had brought large quantities of goods from abroad, encouraged gold mining, trading, trafficking, specu lating, erecting whiskey palaces and gambling saloons, I should have been hailed as a great Prophet, a wise leader, and a great financier by those who love to swim in such waters, and hundreds would have been with me heart and hand.

 

When there was no whiskey to be had here, and we needed it for rational purposes, I built a house to make it in. When the distillery was almost completed and in good working order, an army was heard of in our vicinity and I shut up the works; I did not make a gallon of whiskey at my works, because it came here in great quantities, more than was needed. I could have made thousands of dollars from my still, which has ever since been as dead property. Have others followed my example in this? They have not, but there was a whiskey shop established here and another there. Some have even told me that they would starve if they did not make whiskey. I said to them, make it then, and be damned, for they will be damned anyhow. Am not I able to make whiskey? Yes; there stands the still and the stillhouse to this day, which I have never used and from which I might make thousands of dollars. Have I made whiskey and sold it in what some call Whiskey Street? No. Had I done so how many would have hailed me with, "You are a good man, brother Brigham, and you are the right man to lead Israel; thank God for such a man: he keeps a whiskey shop, drinks liquor, trades with our enemies and hugs them to his heart as long as there is any money in their pockets, and takes them to his house and introduces them to his wives and daughters; what a blessed man brother Brigham is."

 

(Source)

 

I see no way an impartial, sincere, and informed reader could get "alcoholic" from that.  Are yousuggesting that Young was lying, that he did keep the distillery running, and that he actually never sold any whiskey because he himself drank every drop of his product?  If so, what evidence do you have of that?

 

Now, there's pretty good evidence of other alcoholics in our history--Joseph Smith Sr., for example.  But your statements seem to go beyond acknowledging fallacies that were actually there; to accusing people of sins for which there is no evidence.

 

It's been 20 years since I went and the number of wine decanters decorating the place went well beyond recreational usage. Things may have changed since.

 

(Psst.  Omegasmaster.  Brigham Young had a dozen wives and their children living in that structure; and an alcoholic only needs one wine decanter--lots of bottles, but only one decanter.  And that's assuming that the ones you saw, are the ones that were present over a century earlier--in a structure that is a restaurant, not a museum, and has functioned as such for decades.)

 

Is it so hard to believe that our prophets were fallible and made mistakes, that they we encumbered by the plague of a mortal body with mortal weaknesses like we are?

 

You're flirting with going beyond reasonably historically-supported mistakes which form part of a larger character, into speculative caricatures that border on character assassination.

 

You can stick your head in the sand about his flaws, but to me his flaws make him more real and the accomplishments of his life more important.

 

I have no delusions of perfection about Young; but you seem to be bent on inventing flaws that weren't there--in the very same thread where you've been essentially accusing Young of allowing his racist beliefs to guide the Church into a policy that God did not sanction (though I still can't get you to clearly state whether you think the policy was wrong or not . . .)

 

I don't think that's coincidental; and under the circumstances your refrain that Young was "a great man, a prophet of God" sound more than a little perfunctory.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

There's a distinct difference between a prophet having flaws and a prophet being a sex-crazed, alcoholic, racist who ignores the will of God in favor of his own perverse drunken biases.

 

It's totally incongruent to me to imply that Joseph Smith was a secret pervert who forced women into adultery, but he was still a righteous prophet of God, and/or Brigham Young was an overt drunkard and racist who ignored God and did his own thing, but he was still a righteous prophet of God. I'm not buying it.

 

There's a distinct difference between having a temper, speaking out of turn, having a bit too much frivolity, etc., and committing severe sin. Moreover, there is a distinct difference between speaking out of turn, holding biased opinions, etc., and sending the church down a path that is entirely against the intent that God had for it. By accepting this as a possibility, we lose all ability to trust in our leaders. And yet God has specifically told us in many instances that the prophet's voice is His voice, that the church will not be led astray, that He leads this church, and that we can trust in the church, it's organization, and it's leaders.

 

Moreover, and more important, I don't consider it sticking my head in the sand to simply not presume that ownership of a distillery does not equate to alcoholic in any way, shape or form. (Edit: Wait...was that a triple negative? Hmm. Yep...three instances of "not". What a great writer I am sometimes.)

 

You can call it sticking our heads in the sand, but I call it faith in God's words. And when an issue is big enough to wreak serious havoc with the system, faith, salvation, and the state of the kingdom of God on the earth, yes...I will err on the side of trusting God's word that we are being led by Him and not by the natural man's propensity to evil.

Edited October 14, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[NeuroTypical]

 

 

Would it shock you if I said that Brigham Young was also an alcoholic?

Do you have a source for this?

 

 

 Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:206.

 

Are you kidding me omegaseamaster75?  Are you honestly putting forth JoD 10:206 as your source that Brigham was an alcoholic?

 

Really?  And you expect us to take you seriously?

 

When there was no whisky to be had here, and we needed it for rational purposes, I built a house to make it in. When the distillery was almost completed and in good working order, an army was heard of in our vicinity and I shut up the works; I did not make a gallon of whisky at my works, because it came here in great quantities, more than was needed. I could have made thousands of dollars from my still, which has ever since been as dead property. Have others followed my example in this? They have not, but there was a whisky shop established here and another there. Some have even told me that they would starve if they did not make whisky. I said to them, make it then, and be damned, for they will be damned anyhow. Am not I able to make whisky? Yes; there stands the still and the still−house to this day, which I have never used and from which I might make thousands of dollars. Have I made whisky and sold it in what some call whisky street? No. Had I done so how many would have hailed me, "You are a good man, brother Brigham, and you are the right man to lead Israel; thank God for such a man: he keeps a whiskey shop, drinks liquor, trades with our enemies and hugs them to his heart as long as there is any money in their pockets, and takes them to his house and introduces them to his wives and daughters; what a blessed man brother Brigham is."

JoD 10:206

 

Omegaseamaster75, you do know that alcoholism is a horrible disease, right?  Something that rips apart families and destroys lives?  It's not just some silly word to be banded about and applied willy-nilly as cheap rhetoric to support some point.

 

And yet you seem to believe Brigham was one, and you give the above as your source.  

 

Your reasoning, to put it as charitably as I can, isn't impressive.  

[omegaseamaster75]

All other evidence is circumstantial I will admit to that, I have my thoughts on the matter and that is good enough for me.  

 

Are you kidding me omegaseamaster75?  Are you honestly putting forth JoD 10:206 as your source that Brigham was an alcoholic?

 

Really?  And you expect us to take you seriously?

 

 

 

 

Omegaseamaster75, you do know that alcoholism is a horrible disease, right?  Something that rips apart families and destroys lives?  It's not just some silly word to be banded about and applied willy-nilly as cheap rhetoric to support some point.

 

And yet you seem to believe Brigham was one, and you give the above as your source.  

 

Your reasoning, to put it as charitably as I can, isn't impressive.  

Brigham Young was divorced 10 times. your right alcoholism does rip apart families and destroys lives.

[omegaseamaster75]

Are you kidding me omegaseamaster75?  Are you honestly putting forth JoD 10:206 as your source that Brigham was an alcoholic?

 

Really?  And you expect us to take you seriously?

 

 

 

 

 

 

all sources are unreliable to be quoted, this is my belief circumstantial evidence points to my opinion being correct...

[omegaseamaster75]

There's a distinct difference between a prophet having flaws and a prophet being a sex-crazed, alcoholic, racist who ignores the will of God in favor of his own perverse drunken biases.

 

 

 

I never said sex crazed...but now that you mention it.....

[jerome1232]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked. I would expect to read wild, far-fetched, unsourced accusations flung about in some other sites I have visited, but not this one. This thread has molded into a ridiculous rant.

Edited October 14, 2014 by jerome1232

[Just_A_Guy]

Brigham Young was divorced 10 times. your right alcoholism does rip apart families and destroys lives.

Then you should be able to provide the court records giving the grounds as drunkenness/cruelty, right?

Or barring that, name one eyewitness who saw Young intoxicated (not just partaking of alcohol; but uncontrollably drunk)?

Or one reputable historian who has reached the same conclusion?

I mean, "he owned a distillery that never went into production/he was a polygamist and divorced a lot/a restaurant operating at a house he lived in a century ago has lots of decorative carafes/decanters; so he must be an alcoholic"? Pretty thin stuff--unless, as I hinted earlier, one wants to believe it . . .

[yjacket]

Those that think that God is involved in our everyday decision making process may be disillusioned to find out that he is not. 

 

If you think that he truly is then ask yourself this: why is there disease? why do people turn from the truth when they hear it? why is there famine, death, murder etc, etc.... the list can go on and on. He "God" lets us work 99% of things out for ourselves

 

The top line is utter bunk.  If God did not want to be involved in our decision making then why are we commanded to pray always?  

Alma 34:17-27

 

17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to callupon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you;

 18 Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save. 19 Yea, humble yourselves, and continue in prayer unto him. 20 Cry unto him when ye are in your fields, yea, over all your flocks. 21 Cry unto him in your houses, yea, over all your household, both morning, mid-day, and evening. 22 Yea, cry unto him against the power of your enemies. 23 Yea, cry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to allrighteousness. 24 Cry unto him over the crops of your fields, that ye may prosper in them. 25 Cry over the flocks of your fields, that they may increase. 26 But this is not all; ye must pour out your souls in your closets, and your secret places, and in your wilderness. 27 Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your hearts befull, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you."

I guess crying unto the Lord continually means we should only adore him? Personally, I think it would be pretty useless to have a God if all we are to do is continually praise Him (it is an integral part, regardless).  No, God is involved in our everyday decision processing as much as we let Him. If we won't involved Him in our decision making, then He won't be involved.  The Spirit of God, His Voice, the Comforter are all around us, we just have to have ears to hear and eyes to see.

[Urstadt]

To the OP:

See the way that many of us have corrected misinformation about the prophets and church history? Even I had to be corrected earlier and I was grateful for it.

If you have doubts, I understand that. But, I hope that the demonstrations here of people who have testimonies correcting misinformation can be a positive testimony for you. And those of us who believe, like I do, recognize when misinformation is corrected, like I did when mine was.

Even if you can't find an answer to a concern you have, let this thread be an example of how an answer does exist, and not to lose the faith while it is slow to find you.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Urstadt

[MarginOfError]

To the OP:

See the way that many of us have corrected misinformation about the prophets and church history. Even I had to be corrected earlier and I was grateful for it.

If you have doubts, I understand that. But, I hope that the demonstrations here of people who have testimonies correcting misinformation can be a positive testimony for you. And those of us who believe, like I do, recognize when misinformation is corrected, like I did when mine was.

Even if you can't find an answer to a concern you have, let this thread be an example of how an answer does exist, and not to lose the faith while it is slow to find you.

 

Or, perhaps more importantly, how an answer _doesn't_ exist, but we are so desperate for them anyway that we will use whatever evidence we can find to provide ourselves with one (truth be damned).

[Traveler]

Here is my understanding - The official position of "the Church" is not in any individual or group of individuals - but in Christ.  He is the official of the Church.  The point being that those that believe that a single official of the church can resided with any mortal individual or individuals is flawed because in truth there will always be some flaw to be found in such "official". 

 

Those called to direct - are not called to direct in every little thing that someone may ask but rather to offer means by which one may enter into a covenant with G-d - to whom we all will answer for our words, deeds and even beliefs.  The goal is not to discover doctrine but to discover G-d.  It is my experience that the quest for truth is the quest for G-d and that in reality there can be no honest quest for truth without discovering G-d. 

 

If we have a quest to discover the flaws of men - we will, in the end, be consumed by the flaws of man. 

[mdfxdb]

The flaws of men are irrelevant.  God has called many flawed men to serve.  Maybe even some men who had a drinking problem (Noah).......

 

It doesn't matter that Brigham Young had a drinking problem (or not).  The testimony you build cannot be based on a man's spirituality, perceived righteousness, etc, etc.  Because at the end of the day prophets, and members alike, all have to put on their pants one leg at a time. 

 

It is when we deify those prophets that we set ourselves up for disappointment.  We forget that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others are just men, with all the flaws, and weaknesses men are subject to.  They were no better than us, and by our modern perceptions, maybe in some cases not nice men at all.  That doesn't negate the fact that they were prophets, and called of God to serve in the capacity that God had defined for them.

 

The calling of prophet, is not a calling of perfection.  They are still subject to the command of Jesus "be ye therefore perfect, even as my father".  They individually have lots of work to do, just like all of us.