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For me -personally-  Section 131 Doctrine and Covenants is of fascinating importance:

 

 

Es ist unmöglich, daß man in Unwissenheit errettet werden kann.

 

So etwas wie unstoffliche Materie gibt es nicht. Aller Geist ist Materie, aber er ist feiner oder reiner und kann nur von reineren Augen erkannt werden;

 

wir können ihn nicht sehen, aber wenn unser Körper einmal rein gemacht sein wird, werden wir sehen, daß Geist nichts anderes ist als Materie.

 

I also believe we can't be redeemed in a status of unconciousness, without having experienced God in a concious way, even if it's only in a split of a second before we die. Matter exists in the whole universe, also dark matter, different from its atomic structure to the kind of matter we know, and dark matter makes approx. 90 percent of all matter in this universe, approved by gravitational effects that can't be otherwise declared, and spirit is some kind of matter, in a status we can't find an explanation for because it strikes the borders of our scientific knowledge and experience. Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, was a hundred miles ahead with his assumptions and revelations in comparison with other Christian churches and their knowledge and their doctrine.

I find it funny that heavier and slower moving particles are harder to see, as is dark matter described (German is catchy, throwing the verb at the end of the sentence.)

 

Would the description of the material being "feiner" really fit with something that is larger than normal matter particles?  Also, if something is of greater quantity than its comparison, how does that fit with the words "feiner oder reiner"?  Usually, when something is refined or purified one ends up with a smaller quantity.  Also, if God created the universe spiritually first and then physically, where is the corresponding "physical" creation to that greater percentage dark matter, if we were to say that is like spirit matter?  Is it that when God creates something spiritually He would have to use more matter, more mass, than when it is created physically?  For example, how much intelligence would the moon require in its spiritual creation?  Is the mass of the moon's spiritual creation greater than the mass of one child of God's spiritual creation?  With all the children of God spirits in one spot, the Earth should contain the greatest amount of dark matter than anywhere else, if that really is spirit matter. ... things to think about. 

Edited by Seminarysnoozer

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What makes it a "cool" language for you? Is it the sound, the pronounciation? What makes German so attractive for you?

 
Partially its proximity to English. Partially that a lot of people speak it. (Relatively speaking. In contrast, the Scandanavian languages, while cool-sounding, are spoken by a few million Scandanavians, and that's it.) Probably partially because, when I was young and studying physics, it appealed to me that most of the greatest physics mind of the 20th century were German or Austrian.
 
At this point, it's more a linguistic interest than anything else, I think. It's very different from Latin languages in ways I find amazing. It's very fun to find cognates that are so different from French or Italian or Spanish cognates. For example, I kept translating "Der Mann ist alt" as "The man is tall", and I was amazed and entertained (and a bit irritated) that I kept failing to realize that the cognate of "alt" was not in Latin languages, but in my own native English! I have a "foreign language" section of my brain that wants to claim German as its own, but German wants to occupy some no-man's land between the "foreign language" and the "native language" sections.
Edited by Vort

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Partially its proximity to English. Partially that a lot of people speak it. (Relatively speaking. In contrast, the Scandanavian languages, while cool-sounding, are spoken by a few million Scandanavians, and that's it.) Probably partially because, when I was young and studying physics, it appealed to me that most of the greatest physics mind of the 20th century were German or Austrian.
 
At this point, it's more a linguistic interest than anything else, I think. It's very different from Latin languages in ways I find amazing. It's very fun to find cognates that are so different from French or Italian or Spanish cognates. For example, I kept translating "Der Mann ist alt" as "The man is tall", and I was amazed and entertained (and a bit irritated) that I kept failing to realize that the cognate of "alt" was not in Latin languages, but in my own native English! I have a "foreign language" section of my brain that wants to claim German as its own, but German wants to occupy some no-man's land between the "foreign language" and the "native language" sections.

 

 

An interesting standpoint. I will have to think about it. Maybe it's the same with me and English... a few days ago I dreamed in English, only a small scenario, but I've remembered it and I think it's because of this forum. I've never been in English-speaking countries or have I ever travelled much. Why should I've done this? Hamburg ist the best place. And, to be honest, I'm not a sailor, and I'm certainly a landlubber.  :lol:

Edited by JimmiGerman

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It's like watching an episode of Hogan's Heroes.

 

He  mixed up real German words with a fantasy language, with a little American accent. Even if  he didn't know German, it sounded quite authentic for Americans and absolutely funny for Germans, however. He was some kind of a genius in some ways.

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I find it funny that heavier and slower moving particles are harder to see, as is dark matter described (German is catchy, throwing the verb at the end of the sentence.)

 

Would the description of the material being "feiner" really fit with something that is larger than normal matter particles?  Also, if something is of greater quantity than its comparison, how does that fit with the words "feiner oder reiner"?  Usually, when something is refined or purified one ends up with a smaller quantity.  Also, if God created the universe spiritually first and then physically, where is the corresponding "physical" creation to that greater percentage dark matter, if we were to say that is like spirit matter?  Is it that when God creates something spiritually He would have to use more matter, more mass, than when it is created physically?  For example, how much intelligence would the moon require in its spiritual creation?  Is the mass of the moon's spiritual creation greater than the mass of one child of God's spiritual creation?  With all the children of God spirits in one spot, the Earth should contain the greatest amount of dark matter than anywhere else, if that really is spirit matter. ... things to think about. 

 

 

You said: "German is catchy, throwing the verb at the end of the sentence."

 

Sometimes the verbs belong there.  :lol:

 

Okay - and about the rest of your posting let me think till tomorrow. It's nearly midnight here in Hamburg, and questions about the material that's feiner and reiner than normal matter, when it's even consisting of larger particles, are blowing my mind at the moment. Maybe Vort can give a statement here.  I will let the curtain fall for today. ' Night, ladies and gents.

Edited by JimmiGerman

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You said: "German is catchy, throwing the verb at the end of the sentence."

 

Sometimes the verbs belong there.  :lol:

 

 

English does this too, as in: "Do you know how many languages that man over there in the corner speaks?"  But German does it more.  There is a great story of a German professor who starts his lecture and starts nesting one dependent clause within another during his lecture.  Ten minutes before the end of class, he sighs and belches out every single verb that had accumulated, sort of like rapidly popping items from a mile-high stack.

 

I've watched Hogan's Heroes in German on YouTube.  It's called Ein Käfig voller Helden, "A Cage Full Of Heroes."  Someone at Google must be having fun, because Google translate magically translates Ein Käfig voller Helden as "Hogan's Heroes."  I tried Ein Käfig voller Frauen and it translated that to "Hogan's Women," so someone at Google gets an F for frail code.  Anyway, in the German version all the German characters have different regional accents, which adds a layer of richness that would be impossible in English.  Actually, I am surprised that Hogan's Heroes is shown in Germany at all.  When I was in high school, we had a German exchange student visit us, and told us how utterly mortified he was to see an American television comedy about a WWII prisoner-of-war camp.  

 

German is a wonderful language.  (My family came from northern Germany, JimmiGerman, so perhaps we are related.  Are there any Vortexes in your family tree?)

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In my view, the day-to-day operation of the Church, including such things as the directing of missionary work, are all determined by divine revelation.

In the context that you put it what does divine mean? Face to face contact with angels? Gods voice literally speaking to the prophets ear? A vision via dream?

I think the major revelations like Joseph Smiths first vision and the discovery of the golden plates are all divine revelation where the prophet was visited by divine beings.

Stuff like day-to-day revelations for the church are more on the side of feelings and premonition, like praying and feeling good about a decision, which add the human element in the decision process and is open to error. Therefore I do not think it is divine.

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Stuff like day-to-day revelations for the church are more on the side of feelings and premonition, like praying and feeling good about a decision, which add the human element in the decision process and is open to error. Therefore I do not think it is divine.

 

Based on this statement, I can only assume that you have never truly experience the divine.

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Based on this statement, I can only assume that you have never truly experience the divine.

divine (Diety) and divine revelation are two different things, both of which I have experienced.

I also believe that revelation and divine revelation are two similar but different things.

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I read everything. Very interesting.

 

Also, regarding language, there's a YouTube of a woman that speaks in gibberish but sounds authentic in like 30 different languages. Read the comments, even native speakers are impressed.

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divine (Diety) and divine revelation are two different things

 

Says who? Just on your word?

 

Experiencing the divine is experiencing the divine...as in experiencing communication from Diety.

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I think there is an expectation, especially on the part of outsiders who look at the Church, that a prophet stands up and either prophesies some future event or gives some "Thus saith the Lord" commandments.  This limited understanding comes because they are unschooled in the way the Spirit works.  They often are familiar with getting answers to their own prayers, but they don't think of that as revelation--but it certainly is.  When God communicates, it is revelation.  Sometimes it's a strong feeling that personalizes a passage of scripture during a time of spiritual need.  Sometimes it's a flash of inspiration that moves you to action.  Sometimes it's a prompting that warns you of danger or trouble.  

 

All of those things are revelation, just as much as hearing the voice of God or seeing a vision, although they are not as dramatic.  Dreams can also be revelatory.  Sometimes God speaks through a friend or a pastoral figure, which is just as effective as sending an angel.

 

Thus revelation is constantly at work in all the councils of the Church, including ward councils, priesthood executive committees, Relief Society presidency meetings, Deacon's quorum meetings, etc.  The Spirit may guide a Sunday School teacher as she prepares her lesson or prompts a youth to call and invite a friend to an activity.  

 

At the top levels of the Church, General Conference talks are often a way revelation and inspiration is imparted to the Church.  In our time, it seems that the Spirit works very subtly.  I think of President Hinckley's talk from October 1998 as a prophetic warning which was reiterated again in October 2001.  He didn't come out and say that the economy was going to crash, but those who were in-tune heard the warning and acted upon it.  There were several talks in the most recent conference that were similar in nature.  This subtle nature of revelation was mentioned in the New Testament, in Luke 17.  Jesus explained:

 

20 ¶And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 
As a young missionary in France, I saw that the French version of this scripture adds new understanding of it's meaning.  It says, roughly translated, that the kingdom doesn't come in a manner that is "striking to the eyes" (frappant aux yeux.)  Jesus didn't tell the Pharisees that the kingdom was within them. The French uses the preposition parmi, which means among or amidst.  He told them that the kingdom of God is subtle and that it was in their midst, but they couldn't see it.  
 
That's the way revelation often works.  A person who lives by the Spirit can discern it.  Those who don't can't.  They go looking for prophets and prophecy based on a false notion of those things and they miss it when it's right in front of their eyes.
Edited by spamlds

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In the context that you put it what does divine mean? Face to face contact with angels? Gods voice literally speaking to the prophets ear? A vision via dream?

For my purposes, "divine" means "from God". The actual mode of delivery is irrelevant, and in any case probably varies between individuals.

 

I think the major revelations like Joseph Smiths first vision and the discovery of the golden plates are all divine revelation where the prophet was visited by divine beings.

 

I agree. Those most certainly were divine revelations.

 

Stuff like day-to-day revelations for the church are more on the side of feelings and premonition, like praying and feeling good about a decision, which add the human element in the decision process and is open to error. Therefore I do not think it is divine.

 

I could hardly disagree more. Anything that goes through human beings has the potential for "human error", even Joseph Smith's first vision. Witness Lehi's prophetic dream, where he failed to notice that the water was filthy and represented the evils of the world. Nephi had to fill in that little detail. But that doesn't make Lehi's dream any less divine.

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So unless you received a specific confirmation you would presume they were not called of God?

I think the most I could reliably presume in these circumstances was that my prayerful desire for a confirmation had not been answered. There could be several possible reasons for such an outcome, of which only one is that they had not been called of God. Of course, when considering whether that was the reason for me failing to receive a confirmation, I would have to take into account the high probability that many other people had received a confirmation. 

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English does this too, as in: "Do you know how many languages that man over there in the corner speaks?"  But German does it more.  There is a great story of a German professor who starts his lecture and starts nesting one dependent clause within another during his lecture.  Ten minutes before the end of class, he sighs and belches out every single verb that had accumulated, sort of like rapidly popping items from a mile-high stack.

 

I've watched Hogan's Heroes in German on YouTube.  (...)

 

German is a wonderful language.  (My family came from northern Germany, JimmiGerman, so perhaps we are related.  Are there any Vortexes in your family tree?)

 

Sorry I must disappoint you. I've never heard about the name Vortex in my family tree. My mother's parents came from Westpreußen (my grandmother) and from Schlesien (my grandfather). My father came from Sachsen (Saxonia). He was a mariner (as a young man he served for the Kriegsmarine) and met my mother here in Hamburg in the 50s, where they married.

 

I think it was in 1944, however, when all family documents of my mother's parents were lost as a result of an English bombing, that destroyed their house here in Hamburg (I still live quite close to there, and the house was rebuild again, and you can still see where new bricks were used and where the destroyment once was). My grandmother was buried alive with other persons in the cellar, under the remains of the house, but she survived.

 

Under Hitler each family had to lead an Aryan's proof, in form of a complete family tree, which went back many generations (there were clearly defined rules when someone was an Aryan or not). These family documents don't exist any more, for the reason I mentioned, and it's impossible to find any information about my mother's forefathers today, as Westpreußen and Schlesien were lost to Poland.

 

Well, Vortex, I'll send you a PM with my name, and the name of my grandmother's / grandfather's (my mother's parents)  family, but I'm afraid it won't bring us forward concerning the question if we're related, except in a sense of the awareness or understanding that there is a great probability  we are not. 

Edited by JimmiGerman

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divine (Diety) and divine revelation are two different things, both of which I have experienced.

I also believe that revelation and divine revelation are two similar but different things.

 

A lawyer? But maybe you are not wrong: light, for instance, can be described as a wave or matter.

Edited by JimmiGerman

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I read everything. Very interesting.

 

Also, regarding language, there's a YouTube of a woman that speaks in gibberish but sounds authentic in like 30 different languages. Read the comments, even native speakers are impressed.

 

Have you got a link for that video on YouTube?

Edited by JimmiGerman

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The Church doesn't have a two-tier system for revelation. The prophets and apostles use the same Spirit and gifts available to the newest member. President Hinckley spoke of this matter in his interview with Mike Wallace:

 

 

Mr. Wallace: “The Mormons, Mr. President, call you a ‘living Moses,’ a prophet who literally communicates with Jesus. How do you do that?”

 

Reply: “… Let me say first that there is a tremendous history behind this Church, a history of prophecy, a history of revelation, and … decisions which set the pattern of the Church so that there are not constant recurring problems that require any special dispensation. But there are occasionally things that arise where the will of the Lord [is needed and] is sought, and in those circumstances I think the best way I could describe the process is to liken it to the experience of Elijah as set forth in the book of First Kings. Elijah spoke to the Lord, and there was a wind, a great wind, and the Lord was not in the wind. And there was an earthquake, and the Lord was not in the earthquake. And there was a fire, and the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire a still, small voice, which I describe as the whisperings of the Spirit. Now, let me just say, categorically, that the things of God are understood by the Spirit of God, and one must have and seek and cultivate that Spirit, and there comes understanding and it is real. I can give testimony of that.”

 

Elijah was a prophet's prophet, and one of the forms of revelation in his toolbelt is the "still small voice".

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I think the most I could reliably presume in these circumstances was that my prayerful desire for a confirmation had not been answered. There could be several possible reasons for such an outcome, of which only one is that they had not been called of God. Of course, when considering whether that was the reason for me failing to receive a confirmation, I would have to take into account the high probability that many other people had received a confirmation. 

 

I humbly submit that you (and anyone who has a testimony of the gospel) dig in and fully sustain leaders even in such a circumstance.

 

"wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith." Ether 12:6

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I personally believe that revelation goes beyond spiritual enlightenment  or in short - church things necessary for salvation.   Revelation - including divine revelation is an improvement on and benefit to humanity and is true.  Indeed we should seek the truth of all things.  Generally speaking - with few exceptions - if someone has difficulty accepting the truth of empirical things that are obvious - I do not trust them to understand the more subtle spiritual things.

 

Sadly it often appears to me that many involved in religion are just the opposite.  They seem to disregard obvious empirical things as an exercise of faith thinking that is helpful in understanding the very G-d that ordered empirical things so; thus they would reject such order to better understand he who ordered it so?????

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