Do you feel positive, neutral or negative about Evangelicals?

[prisonchaplain]

Baptists are a branch of evangelists? Might be getting confused. I have met Baptists and one in particular, was very opinionated, and quite loud about her convictions. This was at a luncheon with mostly Mormons. I thought she was a little brash but I didn't dislike her.

 

Some Southern Baptists, many independent and "Bible Baptists" are more Fundamentalist.  "Evangelical" and "Fundamentalist" are more descriptors, than indicators of a formal affiliation (though both have such associations).

[hagoth]

...Yikes.  I'm guessing we've not done a good job of loving our neighbors

My only real interaction with Evangelicals has been in high school, at work, and online.

 

During high school, there was a megachurch in town (one of the largest and wealthiest megachurches in that region of America) where many of the students attended, including several of the most outspoken kids on my cross country team. They were repeatedly about as rude towards me and my beliefs as you could imagine, so I didn't find their form of "outreach" endearing in the least. (That was back in the days of the Ed Decker media productions with which the youth and adults had been indoctrinated to fear and hate us.)

 

At work nearby, I once had an Evangelical boss. I don't recall how he learned I was LDS, but he asked me a question once during lunch about a somewhat common LDS practice. When I answered his question, he expressed outright disgust. Shortly afterwards, I was out of a job.

 

I would say about half of the Evangelicals I have encountered online have treated me and my beliefs with a fair amount of respect. Most of the rest have been on the rude side of the spectrum.

 

You are a credit to your faith. Thanks for being part of this community!

Edited June 4, 2015 by hagoth

[Windseeker]

It certainly is not easy being LDS, defending Christian values and belief in God with immorality and hostility toward Judeo-Christian religion on the rise while at the same time trying to stand up to anti-Mormon bigotry and ignorance dumped on us by our own brothers in Christ.

[Traveler]

Mostly I have had positive interaction with those devout in their faith.  There are two areas that for me indicate that an individual is not honest concerning religion. 

 

The first area are those that insist in telling me what I believe and are unwilling to listen or try to understand what it is I actually believe.  An  example that comes to mind is the argument about how the LDS Church utilizes mind control with missionaries (I served as a missionary and I also served in the military in a military intelligence unit that specialized in - among other things - interrogations, brainwashing or if you will mind control of prisoners of war).  The discipline taught missionaries just does not qualify for the level of brainwashing that is advertized in certain religious circles -  in fact from my training - many that argue LDS resort to brainwashing are themselves showing critical signs that they are much more brainwashed.  I have learned that those of this religious stripe will alienate everyone they talk to that do not share their particular doctrine - despite whatever kindness, goodness or mercy they encounter.

 

The second area are those that insist that their understand of religious doctrine is logically sound and rhetorically reliable and then when it is demonstrated to any degree that their particular belief is not actually logical, shift their mitigation and insist that religious things are only understood by the spirit (revelation) and cannot be understood with logic.  Often they will quote the scripture that G-d's thoughts are not our thoughts and do not realize that they are using a faulty premise coupled with faulty logic and then believe that somehow that they are logically reaching a rhetorically viable  conclusion that proves that logic is not valid method of communicating spiritual things that are true.  When someone's logic is failing and they resort to anger and contentious accusations it only convinces me that they are not only incapable of discovering truth through logic but that they really are not that connected spiritually as well

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, concerning telling others what they believe, I remember giving my childhood friend (we were 15 and 13) a multiple choice test from my church's Foundations of Faith (our basic doctrine course).  This friend was a Jehovah's Witness, and, quite frankly, I did know how he was supposed to answer.  He should have bombed that test.  He got 85%.  I figured, "Who am I to argue with a Jehovah's Witness that probably agrees with more of our doctrine than some of the adults in our own church?"

 

On the matter of logic vs. revelation/inspiration, could it be that those you spoke with began to feel they were being scripted into a corner?  We've been terrible about that with some of our evangelism trainings.  When people feel boxed in, whether it was intended or not, they will often "flight" rather than "fight" by resorting to non-arguable positions (who can argue with "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it?"  Or, "God's ways are not our ways?"

 

So, maybe a more generous evaluation is that you unintentionally intimidated your theological opponents, and they resorted to the safety of "spiritual enlightenment."  Maybe?

[Guest Godless]

Baptists are a branch of evangelists? Might be getting confused. I have met Baptists and one in particular, was very opinionated, and quite loud about her convictions. This was at a luncheon with mostly Mormons. I thought she was a little brash but I didn't dislike her.

 

The definition of evangelism is attempting to spread ones beliefs through public preaching and personal witness. By that definition, I'd say that many Baptists are evangelical.

[Guest Godless]

The groups that are the least enthusiastic about evangelicals are atheists with a score of -50, followed closely by Muslims at -41 and Mormons at -37.

 

Yikes.  I'm guessing we've not done a good job of loving our neighbors.  Do you think LDS would fair better with atheists and Muslims?  Evangelicals?

 

In general, I'd say that LDS aren't in much higher standing than evangelicals among atheists, mainly due to their relentless missionary work and staunch conservative stance on many social issues.

[prisonchaplain]

Out of curiosity, Godless, which is harder for atheists/agnostics to stomach--missionary/evangelistic efforts, or the conservative social/political activism? 

[Bini]

Out of curiosity, Godless, which is harder for atheists/agnostics to stomach--missionary/evangelistic efforts, or the conservative social/political activism?

PC I know you asked Godless but for me, I'd say it's the social/political activism.

[Traveler]

Traveler, concerning telling others what they believe, I remember giving my childhood friend (we were 15 and 13) a multiple choice test from my church's Foundations of Faith (our basic doctrine course).  This friend was a Jehovah's Witness, and, quite frankly, I did know how he was supposed to answer.  He should have bombed that test.  He got 85%.  I figured, "Who am I to argue with a Jehovah's Witness that probably agrees with more of our doctrine than some of the adults in our own church?"

 

....

 

I may not have communicated what I mean - I was addressing conversations with some religious individual that ask me things like why I believe in worshiping Joseph Smith or why Mormons do not believe in taking care of their poor but rather spending exorbitant amounts of money on temples to hide secret worship.   When I tell them I do not believe in any such things - they claim that I am either being dishonest or that I have not studied the doctrine and teachings of my own faith.  This is not at all anything like the discussion you and I have had but very similar to how LDS are often treated - One need only visit a "Christian" forum where Evangelicals, fundamentalist and others put themselves and their teachings on for display for an example - not just of LDS but just about anyone that is not their flavor of "Christian".

 

 

On the matter of logic vs. revelation/inspiration, could it be that those you spoke with began to feel they were being scripted into a corner?  We've been terrible about that with some of our evangelism trainings.  When people feel boxed in, whether it was intended or not, they will often "flight" rather than "fight" by resorting to non-arguable positions (who can argue with "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it?"  Or, "God's ways are not our ways?"

 

So, maybe a more generous evaluation is that you unintentionally intimidated your theological opponents, and they resorted to the safety of "spiritual enlightenment."  Maybe?

 

Again I think you may have misunderstood me.  I understand that many individuals in religious circles are not deeply trained in science and rhetorical logic.  I have no problem with such individuals that base their understanding of their religion on faith.  My problem is with those that deliberately attack my faith from what they pretend to be science that they do no understand or even try to understand.  For example - there are those that say science, through DNA, has proven that the Book of Mormon could not possibly be true.  When I try to inform them that the DNA markers of which they speak takes the natives in the Americas to two migrations, one of 20 and the other of 40 thousand years ago - also disproves the Bible and Biblical claim of Adam and Noah?  They reply that the Bible does not need science or logic to be proven - that it was given by G-d.   This is what I mean by and what I refer to and right off as failed attempt to deal with a religious nut job.

 

I apologize if this seems a little harsh - thought I may not say such to the person that has approached me - it is the honest impression I have of their ability to understand general religious or scientific principles.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks Traveler--not harsh...just clear. 

 

Bini--thanks for answering.  I want to hear Godless too, but I will put out that I suspected as much.  It's easy to to tell someone sharing religion "No thank you."  It's harder to get past deeply felt political divides. 

[Guest Godless]

Thanks Traveler--not harsh...just clear. 

 

Bini--thanks for answering.  I want to hear Godless too, but I will put out that I suspected as much.  It's easy to to tell someone sharing religion "No thank you."  It's harder to get past deeply felt political divides. 

 

I agree with Bini. Proselytism is an annoyance that can be brushed off as needed.  Political/social issues have a very real impact on our society and our communities, and that's not something that anyone (liberal or conservative) should just brush aside. Issues like gay rights/non-discrimination directly affect people I care about, as do women's rights issues. If TX conservatives have their way, my son could be learning about intelligent design in his biology class. Those are things that I absolutely cannot stomach.

[Traveler]

I agree with Bini. Proselytism is an annoyance that can be brushed off as needed.  Political/social issues have a very real impact on our society and our communities, and that's not something that anyone (liberal or conservative) should just brush aside. Issues like gay rights/non-discrimination directly affect people I care about, as do women's rights issues. If TX conservatives have their way, my son could be learning about intelligent design in his biology class. Those are things that I absolutely cannot stomach.

 

Just a note - I am far more concerned about excluding ideas in education than I am the inclusion of ideas.

[MrShorty]

One interesting thing I see in the table that Crypto posted (post #14 on page 1 of this thread) was the lack of "reciprocation" showed for Jews and Evangelicals. While Evangelicals seem to have a fairly high opinion of Jews (scoring in the 60's), Jews do not reciprocate this, scoring a low 38 in their feeling towards Evangelicals. Of the groups represented in the table, it seems that there is more reciprocity (or lack of reciprocity), but this pair seems different in this regard.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

I pretty much agree with Gator on this. As a whole (with individual exceptions) I have positive feelings toward them whether they like Mormons or not. 

[mrmarklin]

I'm fairly negative toward evangelicals because of the intolerance exhibited by some in deciding who is "Christian".

Mormons obviously don't qualify, being a cult and all. But surprisingly, Catholics don't make the cut either.

[Backroads]

Well, it is hard to stomach the liberal groups demanding the outlawing of religion.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm fairly negative toward evangelicals because of the intolerance exhibited by some in deciding who is "Christian".

Mormons obviously don't qualify, being a cult and all. But surprisingly, Catholics don't make the cut either.

 

 

While a few may feel that Catholics aren't Christians, Catholic books and materials are often sold in evangelical bookstores.  Also, some anti-Catholic tracts were removed from those stores.  So, I'd argue that most evangelicals believe that most Catholics will make heaven, and vice versa.

[prisonchaplain]

One interesting thing I see in the table that Crypto posted (post #14 on page 1 of this thread) was the lack of "reciprocation" showed for Jews and Evangelicals. While Evangelicals seem to have a fairly high opinion of Jews (scoring in the 60's), Jews do not reciprocate this, scoring a low 38 in their feeling towards Evangelicals. Of the groups represented in the table, it seems that there is more reciprocity (or lack of reciprocity), but this pair seems different in this regard.

 

A majority of Jewish people are non-religious.  Those that are Orthodox represent less than 10%.  Non-religious would probably track similar to atheists.  As for the Orthodox, they are very opposed to missionary efforts to convert them to Christianity.

[prisonchaplain]

I agree with Bini. Proselytism is an annoyance that can be brushed off as needed.  Political/social issues have a very real impact on our society and our communities, and that's not something that anyone (liberal or conservative) should just brush aside. Issues like gay rights/non-discrimination directly affect people I care about, as do women's rights issues. If TX conservatives have their way, my son could be learning about intelligent design in his biology class. Those are things that I absolutely cannot stomach.

 

Atheists/Agnostics do track strongly "liberal" on social issues.  Further, they might be even more open to the arguments of some activists that:

 

1.  Churches should be taxed.  They do not provide an inherent social good, as tradition says.

2.  Clergy should not have their housing expenses tax-free.

3.  Freedom of religion NEVER trumps "human rights," and has often been used as a fake excuse for hatred and bigotry.

 

I'm willing to admit that in the heady 1980s some of us got overly comfortable with political power.  We allowed ourselves to be seen as Republicans.  Many liberals really believe that most Evangelicals (and LDS, most likely) are determined to set up a theocracy, and exclude/jail gays.  We should have maintained the traditional role of prophetic voice, and left the politicking to the politicians.

 

Still, I've yet to read in the Constitution that I had to turn in my voter's card when I got born again.  :-)

[unixknight]

I don't have a problem with Evangelicals as a group.  Morally, they are our allies and in terms of differences in doctrine, some of the ones I associate with agree that LDS is Christians and some don't.  What I've learned is usually when they don't it's because they've been fed some kind of misinformation about LDS belief.  Once that gets straightened out, the problem usually goes away.

 

Sometimes it doesn't, but that's normally when your'e dealing with someone who has a chip on their shoulder anyway and it really makes no difference what his/her own specific beliefs are.

[Vort]

The "Mormons aren't Christians" thing doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. Frankly, if I were a non-LDS Christian, I would have a difficult time accepting as fully Christian someone who believed in another book of scripture and who had an exclusive view of truth.

 

I imagine how I would feel if some group said, "Hey, we believe in Jesus and we are Christian! Our beliefs don't accord with larger Christianity, of course. But that's because we have this great new Book of Prophet Awesome, a cowboy who lived in Arizona 150 years ago and received divine revelations and found a set of stone books with engravings of the Ten Lost Tribes! We don't actually have the stone tablets, of course, because they were swallowed up by an earthquake, but we have Prophet Awesome's translation of the tablets, which is even better! So, yeah, we're Christian. Technically, YOU'RE the ones who aren't Christian."

 

Yes, Latter-day Saints are Christian in the most important sense of the word. But I don't really expect most other religions, Christian or otherwise, to recognize that fact.

[Guest Godless]

Atheists/Agnostics do track strongly "liberal" on social issues.  Further, they might be even more open to the arguments of some activists that:

 

1.  Churches should be taxed.  They do not provide an inherent social good, as tradition says.

2.  Clergy should not have their housing expenses tax-free.

3.  Freedom of religion NEVER trumps "human rights," and has often been used as a fake excuse for hatred and bigotry.

 

I'm willing to admit that in the heady 1980s some of us got overly comfortable with political power.  We allowed ourselves to be seen as Republicans.  Many liberals really believe that most Evangelicals (and LDS, most likely) are determined to set up a theocracy, and exclude/jail gays.  We should have maintained the traditional role of prophetic voice, and left the politicking to the politicians.

 

Still, I've yet to read in the Constitution that I had to turn in my voter's card when I got born again.  :-)

 

I think the biggest pet peeve for many of us is the blatant hypocrisy that we see constantly from some of the more visible members of the evangelical community, people who will ridicule a transgender woman one day and fiercely defend a child molester the next. As an LDS apostate, it's very hard for me to reconcile the words and actions of far-right Christians (including some LDS) with the things I learned as a child about Christ-like love. And sadly, many Christians that I've encountered are very far from being "Christ-like". You seem to be one of the notable exceptions. I've met others, people who may not understand my worldview, but are willing to make an honest effort to attempt to rather than brush me off as just another hell-bound infidel. They seem to be rare though.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Godless

[Traveler]

The "Mormons aren't Christians" thing doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. Frankly, if I were a non-LDS Christian, I would have a difficult time accepting as fully Christian someone who believed in another book of scripture and who had an exclusive view of truth.

 

I imagine how I would feel if some group said, "Hey, we believe in Jesus and we are Christian! Our beliefs don't accord with larger Christianity, of course. But that's because we have this great new Book of Prophet Awesome, a cowboy who lived in Arizona 150 years ago and received divine revelations and found a set of stone books with engravings of the Ten Lost Tribes! We don't actually have the stone tablets, of course, because they were swallowed up by an earthquake, but we have Prophet Awesome's translation of the tablets, which is even better! So, yeah, we're Christian. Technically, YOU'RE the ones who aren't Christian."

 

Yes, Latter-day Saints are Christian in the most important sense of the word. But I don't really expect most other religions, Christian or otherwise, to recognize that fact.

 

I like this post - It is my honest belief that being a Christian is not about doctrine as much as it is about love.  I know many Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and agnostics that are as good of examples of Christians as many member that I have met at church or anywhere else.  My brother like to say, "Going to church, saying prayers and reading scripture no more makes someone a Christian than someone sleeping in a garage, saying vrum vrum and drinking gasoline makes them a car.

[Guest Godless]

Just a note - I am far more concerned about excluding ideas in education than I am the inclusion of ideas.

 

I believe that unsubstantiated scientific theories (like biogenesis) should be left out of primary and secondary education. Just stick to the basics, which would include evolution as it's a vital part of our understanding of archeology, anthropology, and modern medicine. If students decide to pursue science on a higher level, then they'll surely be exposed to other theories at that point. I see no reason to confuse 12 year-olds with fringe science and conflicting theories.