carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 https://amateurwifetips.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/ill-call-you-caitlyn/ I want to know what other people think before I add my own response. mrmarklin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
char713 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I think the guy is getting enough "love" from those who want to use his difficulties to promote their own agenda. I think it is possible to just not say anything in public at all, especially if you are well known to your blog or twitter or whathaveyou audience as being a member of the church. Adding fuel to the flames of this discussion, whether positive or negative remarks, is not helping the guy. It's not hindering him either. He doesn't need our words or our support, so why put yourself out there and confuse people about your beliefs in the process? My guess is most people who do are just looking for a little slice of that attention themselves. carlimac, Backroads and Windseeker 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 My reaction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 My reaction? Could you be a little more specific? Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I'm sick of hearing about it from all sources. Vort, jerome1232, Leah and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I'm sick of hearing about it from all sources. Like x100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) OK, my guess is that maybe only one of you even read it. This is not about that celebrity in isolation but how we should treat this issue and these people in general. C'mon! Pick it apart! On facebook it's getting rave reviews, mostly by the younger than 35 set. Edited June 5, 2015 by carlimac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlia Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Since the 1970s, I have known people who've undergone reassignment surgery. I think I understand the psychological and physical issues that would make someone make this decision. OK. But... 1) Bruce has way more money than most of these people, who suffer until they can get all of the surgery (and many can never afford to get everything done) I'm sure it has been a hard road for him, but it's a lot harder for others. I'm just not impressed that he's such a courageous person. There are people who commit suicide because they can't make the change. Again, not impressed. I kinda feel guilty for thinking this way, since I believe people can do what they want with their money. But the old hippie girl in me would like to read that he's set up some kind of fund for those who can't pay for all the surgery. 2) I've seen untouched pictures of him after the car accident. Not so great. Now we've got a pic of him as a fabulous woman. So not only do women have to compare themselves to other women, they now get to do it against someone with surgery, who's never had a baby, and who is what, 6' tall? and whose every picture will be Photoshopped so that the media can say what a great looking woman he is. I'm confused on one hand and tired of it all on the other hand. unixknight and carlimac 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) I have nothing against Jenner's claimed sexual identity per se, and don't know enough of the underlying facts/psychological theory/doctrine to say for sure if the surgery was warranted or not. Generally speaking, I'm happy to play nice with a guy/gal in that situation.I do think it unfortunate that Jenner is clearly as attention-starved and as big an exhibitionist as any of the other pathetic ninnies in that family. And since Jenner did choose to pose for that magazine and make looks an issue, I will go so far as to say that all the plastic surgeons, makeup, and photoshopping in the world can't disguise the fact that Jenner is a remarkably ugly woman. Edited June 5, 2015 by Just_A_Guy unixknight and NightSG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Again this isn't about Jenner specifically or whether or not he should have done what he did or his getting attention for it or whatever. Spoiler for those of you who don't want to read what the blogger wrote. Here's her last few sentences: "But I do know that he sent a Savior to be the example for us.A Savior who teaches 5-year-olds and 50-year-olds to love one another.And so, to the woman I’ll never meet, I say this.I’ll walk with you. I’ll talk with you. I’ll call you Caitlyn.That’s how I’ll show my love for you." Is this really what the Savior would have done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
char713 Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I read it, promise. And no, that is absolutely not what the Savior would have done. I believe He would have stayed silent but resolute rather than say something in support of anything except the man himself and the pain he has gone through. carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Carlimac, I'm not trying to be obtuse; and I have read (well, skimmed) the article. I guess my thought is this: Either Jenner really is a female spirit child of God born--like the rest of us--into a fallen state of mortality, and whose imperfect body happened to have male genitalia; or Jenner is a male child of God and has a psychological disorder of some sort that will be neither acknowledged nor treated because political correctness has invaded the profession that should have identified and treated the condition. I have no way of knowing which is the case. Frankly, I don't really want to know. Either way, Jenner deserves my pity and respect as a human being, if not my agreement with Jenner's particular life choices. On the other hand: I'm not inclined go give Jenner a pass for tacky, boorish, or destructive actions that I would ordinarily find it necessary to condemn. Does that pity and respect extend to calling Jenner "Caitlyn"? Fundamentally, I don't see it as any different than the delusional guy in the psych ward who wants everyone to call him Teddy Roosevelt. "Okay, s u r e -- Teddy. And after lunch we'll go veto some bills; won't that be nice?" But I don't think that's quite the tone Jenner would like me to take. Edited June 5, 2015 by Just_A_Guy unixknight and NightSG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Carlimac, I'm not trying to be obtuse; and I have read (well, skimmed) the article. I guess my thought is this: Either Jenner really is a female spirit child of God born--like the rest of us--into a fallen state of mortality, and whose imperfect body happened to have male genitalia; or Jenner is a male child of God and has a psychological disorder of some sort that will be neither acknowledged nor treated because political correctness has invaded the profession that should have identified and treated the condition. I have no way of knowing which is the case. Frankly, I don't really want to know. Either way, Jenner deserves my pity and respect as a human being, if not my agreement with Jenner's particular life choices. On the other hand: I'm not inclined go give Jenner a pass for tacky, boorish, or destructive actions that I would ordinarily find it necessary to condemn. Does that pity and respect extend to calling Jenner "Caitlyn"? Fundamentally, I don't see it as any different than the delusional guy in the psych ward who wants everyone to call him Teddy Roosevelt. "Okay, s u r e -- Teddy. And after lunch we'll go veto some bills; won't that be nice?" But I don't think that's quite the tone Jenner would like me to take. An imperfect body? A male body that has fathered children. The body seems to be in perfect working order except for the mind. Would God allow a body to be created that performs and does exactly opposite of what it's spirit is supposed to do? I reject that notion! That strikes at the very fundamental basics of what I believe about God. Yes there are lots of physical imperfections in this world...a body that doesn't perform as it should. Infertility exists in both male and female bodies. But for a female spirit to be able to provide sperm to create another human being. or a man to be able to concieve and carry a baby to term just doesn't fly in my mind. If so, He is a very different God than I've been taught about. And our gospel is a farse. Saldrin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) An imperfect body? A male body that has fathered children. The body seems to be in perfect working order except for the mind. Would God allow a body to be created that performs and does exactly opposite of what it's spirit is supposed to do? I reject that notion! That strikes at the very fundamental basics of what I believe about God. Yes there are lots of physical imperfections in this world...a body that doesn't perform as it should. Infertility exists in both male and female bodies. But for a female spirit to be able to provide sperm to create another human being. or a man to be able to concieve and carry a baby to term just doesn't fly in my mind. If so, He is a very different God than I've been taught about. And our gospel is a farse. I'm trying to keep an open mind. In a TribTalk session earlier this year, Elder Oaks came out and said something to the effect that we are awaiting more revelation regarding transgender issues. Bodies perform actions--and life is even sometimes created--under circumstances that are contrary to God's preferred manner, on a daily basis. Edited June 5, 2015 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I'm trying to keep an open mind. In a TribTalk session earlier this year, Elder Oaks came out and said something to the effect that we are awaiting more revelation regarding transgender issues. Bodies perform actions--and life is even sometimes created--under circumstances that are contrary to God's preferred manner, on a daily basis.What is a TribTalk and do you have a reference for it? I'd like to read that myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) What is a TribTalk and do you have a reference for it? I'd like to read that myself. TribTalks are live interviews that the SL Tribune periodically conducts with local newsmakers--in this case, Elders Oaks and Christofferson, back in January after the Church announced its support for nondiscrimination legislation at the beginning of the most recent Utah legislative session. I'm not aware of any complete transcript of the interview; but it is on Youtube: I believe I may have misquoted Elder Oaks; his actual statement (responding to a parent of a transgender son) was "This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that." Edited June 5, 2015 by Just_A_Guy carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 JAG you beat me. I was just going to post the video. I was just watching enough to make sure it was the right one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 There's a distinct difference, imo, between a direct personal relationship with someone who is struggling in some way or another (by their own choice or not) and a public figure being used as a tool to further a Satan spawned agenda to tear down sacred things. In my opinion, this blog post is basically supporting, sustaining, and upholding this agenda. Naively, sure. But building up the wrong kingdom nonetheless. I couldn't give a whit what someone chooses to call someone else per that person's request. A name's a name. I have a bigger problem calling a he a she, regardless of how they have mutilated themselves. But a name? ...whatever. But don't try and sell me on the fact that doing so is about showing love or that in preaching so, not only publicly (a pernicious enough tonic on it's own), but as a direct example set for the truly innocent, such as one's own children, one is not harming society, creating confusion, and helping to stir up the mists of darkness. I'm sure this blogger has good intentions. And with such certain paths, I believe the saying goes, are paved. carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I kind of get tired of people throwing out the "What would Jesus do" for so many things of the world. rameumptom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I started reading some of the comments in the blog and it made me very sad. People will justify ANYTHING nowadays. Supposedly good, righteous, faithful people helping the devil right along his merry old way. Sad. Sad. Sad. pam and carlimac 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlimac Posted June 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) I kind of get tired of people throwing out the "What would Jesus do" for so many things of the world. What do you mean by "things of the world"? Are you talking about worldly situations? I don't mind it so much because I think we still need to keep our Savior and his life relevant. I just get bothered by people saying "this is what Jesus would do" but not including all that He would do as per what He did while on earth. They seem to forget "Go and sin no more." "I am the way, the truth and the life." "Blessed are the meek" etc. Edited June 5, 2015 by carlimac Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I believe I may have misquoted Elder Oaks; his actual statement (responding to a parent of a transgender son) was "This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that." My sense of the matter (which may be bias on my part...perhaps) is that the strong implication behind his statement was that they need to do some more clarification along the lines of: "ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." - The Family: A Proclamation to the World ...but directly tie it into so-called trans-genderism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 https://amateurwifetips.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/ill-call-you-caitlyn/ I want to know what other people think before I add my own response. Carli, I've read the article. I like it. I feel the same way. I admit the topic makes me a little squeamish, but I think my job is to be loving. That is all. Now if it were my child, or someone I had a stewardship over in a calling, then I would try to talk to them about the Lord's plan, but in the case of others I try to just love them. One minor point of disagreement I have with her is when she talks about God "giving us trials". I think much of what we suffer in this life is either part of living in this world or effect of other peoples sins--not something gave to us. For example, I think cancer is caused by genetics, diet, environment, and abuse, rape, murder etc are effects of other people's sins. So I don't think God gives these things to us, but He is there to support us and help be strengthened by them rather than destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkstpaul Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 Follow the money. Vort and unixknight 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) I have several thoughts - and no I have not taken time to read the article. Perhaps I should but I am not sure why? I will start my comments with the joke of a lady walking into a bar. She has false eyelashes and many other additions to her person (wig, fingernails and surgical alterations) that she was not born with and she is heavily adorned with makeup. She looks around the bar and then says to the bar tender, "It is so sad that there aren't any real men left." I am a believer in the proclamation that was published by the Church. I really do not think I can add anything to the clarity and exactness that the document makes concerning the divine purpose of gender. I have no way of knowing the heart, mind and desires of the person of subject - I am not even sure if I should refer to "it" as him or her. I do not mean to be coy - just honest. There is one thing I am very certain of - I cannot think of a real man or woman that would hope for a deep, personal, passionate and intimate long term relationship with this individual. We can all be friends and say, "There there, we love and care for you". It is something else to say and believe G-d loves such and individual and has prepared an eternal place for them where all their dreams and wishes are fulfilled. Because I cannot honestly understand who in their right mind would want to spend eternity there with them. Sorry to appear so harsh but I honestly do not know how to comfort someone that cannot deal with reality and hate it. I cannot think of a single action of benefit. I am not saying that I hate them or I cannot allow them to believe as they do - I am just saying that I have never seen a benefit come to anyone that tries to bend reality to conform to a fantasy they have and want more than reality. I am sure that someone somewhere will pipe up with the response of - what is real? And all that I can say is for those that do not know - that such thinking is indeed a problem some have - and I do not see or believe there is any solution for such thinking and I do not believe there is a better example or sign that proves insanity. One last point - I really do not understand anyone that does not want someone that is insane to be cured. Edited June 5, 2015 by Traveler carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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