Question about Tithing and what amount should be paid.

[Chilltothebone]

So I have always paid my tithing on my Net take home pay.  10% is what I have paid for a long time.  This is an extremely large portion of my income but I have always done it.  I have a friend who is investifating the church and considering starting to pay tithes which is great!  However, he brought up a good point to me that has me questioning how I am paying my tithing.

 

Below is an exert from a conference talk by Daniel L. Johnson from October 2006

 

So what is a tithing? The Lord has given us His definition: “And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever.” ²Please note that the tithe is not just any freewill offering, nor is it a 20th or some other fraction of our annual interest or income.

President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.” ³ 

From the underlined statement he says that the profit that comes from operating a business.  Businesses have overhead costs that play into the profit of the business.  Now if i were to look at myself as a business, someone who works to obtain money.  Should i not subtract my costs of living before paying my tithing?  I have to have shelter, I have to have food, I have to have a vehicle to get to and from work.  I have to have health insurance.  Would it not still be paying a full tithe if i subtracted these costs first and then paid tithing on the remainder?

 

Your thoughts on this manner would be helpful.

[Chilltothebone]

Sorry about all the posts.  Will a mod delete all but this.

[Vort]

No, you should not deduct costs as if you were a business. You are not a business.

[estradling75]

You will get lots of opinions...  However the only opinion that counts is the Lord's...  Get on your knees and pray and ask God what he wants you to pay... What he will accept as a full tithe.

 

Now for my opinion...  You could consider yourself a business but is that really how you view yourself?  Personally I could find enough "expenses" to the point I would have no "increase."  With no "increase" I pay no tithing.  If I pay no tithing then I get no blessings from paying tithing.  I want those blessing so I do not look for away not pay.

[priesthoodpower]

You could start your own small business which then becomes its own entity collecting all the revenue and then put yourself on payroll for $1 a year. There are many CEO's whose companys are worth billions but at the end of the year they only pay themselves $1

 

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032315/why-did-larry-page-pay-himself-salary-only-1-year-google.asp

 

 

I guess if these CEO's were mormon they would only have to pay 10 cents tithing. Every thing else they own is liquid. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by priesthoodpower

[Guest]

I'll give two responses:

 

First, the counsel from general authorities.

 

The only counsel the GAs have provided is "1/10th of your interest annually".  But as of the last decade or two nearly every speech I've heard adds "which is understood to mean income".

 

"Anything more or less than this is not of God."  Then they proceed to tell inspiring stories of having paid tithing. Sometimes it is being blessed with a greater return financially.  Other times it is not.

But they were always blessed spiritually.

 

 

Second, common practices.

 

1) I've really never heard of anyone deducting living expenses like you would from income tax.  I don't believe this is a common practice.  I hope this is not a common practice.  I personally don't believe this to be right in the vast majority of circumstances.

 

2) A businessman will deduct business expenses to determine profit.  Then he does not deduct living expenses from his profits to determine tithing.

 

3) Some people will pay tithing on take-home pay (salary minus taxes) and others will pay tithing on gross earnings (salary before taxes are taken out).

 

My personal practices:

 

When I ran my own business, I really had very few "real" business expenses and thus paid on my gross revenues because it was simpler than trying to figure out exactly what I owed the Lord.

 

Now that I'm employed and have a W2 income, I pay on gross income.  It's just a lot simpler because I have all sorts of deductions.

 

I figure with these methods, I know I'm square with the Lord.  If I try any of these other methods or try to deduct living expenses and so on, I know I'd have this uncertainty of whether the Lord "really meant" something else.

 

The point is, don't try to be a lawyer about it.  And don't try to be an accountant about it.  Just ask the Lord what you need to do.  Then be prepared to do what you are prompted to do and you know to be right.

[pam]

Personally, I pay tithing on my gross income.

[Vort]

I have heard people who very seriously contend that, since they spend all the money they earn and don't save any, therefore they don't have any income and should not be expected to pay any tithing. I know that I should have more patience with such people, but I confess I tend not to.

[Josiah]

Exactly how you do this is between you and the Lord. Go to Him, and disregard our opinions if He speaks to the contrary. Having said that:

 

Consider this question: Would I expect a deeper understanding of a gospel principle to lead me to sacrifice more, or less to the Lord? Why?

 

This looks like a loaded, or even a completely rhetorical question on the surface. But I don't intend it to be. After all, compared to the Pharisaical additions to the Law of Moses prevalent in His day, Christ's teachings actually did constitute a scaling back of the requirements of the gospel...in some ways. That's where the "why" question comes in. The letter of the law had been greatly exaggerated to the detriment of the spirit of the law. The Savior's teachings simplified the letter of the law (see Carborendum's post for what I would consider some great applications of that), but simultaneously greatly intensified the spiritual demands behind the law. That's the principle I would take and apply as a test here and elsewhere in the gospel for cases like this. If I thought I had found that the Lord actually expected me to pay a lot less tithing than I already had been, I would exercise a lot of caution and consider first if my spiritual sacrifice would be increasing or decreasing. Because if that's going to be decreasing, then I have a problem.

 

...

 

...or, if you don't want to bother with me mixing in my own philosophies and principles with scripture, just read this instead:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-110-121/section-119-the-law-of-tithing?lang=eng

 

 

 

Elder John A. Widtsoe explained: “Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations,2:86.)

[The Folk Prophet]

As I always advise in these sorts of questions: We should be looking for excuses to give to the Lord His due, not excuses to get out of it.

[Guest]

I have heard people who very seriously contend that, since they spend all the money they earn and don't save any, therefore they don't have any income and should not be expected to pay any tithing. I know that I should have more patience with such people, but I confess I tend not to.

 

I wonder if such people ever look at what their discretionary spending is in proportion to their income.  I've known only two families who are in such poverty that they have NO dicretionary income.

 

Many in poverty still have a big screen TV.  They have premium cable.  They have a smart phone -- and don't tell me that is a necessity.  I could go on.

 

PLEASE don't turn this into a thread jack.  The reason I bring this up is that sometimes we make justifications like this, not because it is a need, but because we don't want to sacrifice these other things for the Lord's work.  It is a question of priorities.  Tithing should always be a top financial priority (to some THE top priority).

[Chilltothebone]

No, you should not deduct costs as if you were a business. You are not a business.

So what is the difference is a business deducts their cost of gasoline to opperate, and if I were to deduct my gas that I had to spend to get to work?  Its the same thing.

[Chilltothebone]

Exactly how you do this is between you and the Lord. Go to Him, and disregard our opinions if He speaks to the contrary. Having said that:

 

Consider this question: Would I expect a deeper understanding of a gospel principle to lead me to sacrifice more, or less to the Lord? Why?

 

This looks like a loaded, or even a completely rhetorical question on the surface. But I don't intend it to be. After all, compared to the Pharisaical additions to the Law of Moses prevalent in His day, Christ's teachings actually did constitute a scaling back of the requirements of the gospel...in some ways. That's where the "why" question comes in. The letter of the law had been greatly exaggerated to the detriment of the spirit of the law. The Savior's teachings simplified the letter of the law (see Carborendum's post for what I would consider some great applications of that), but simultaneously greatly intensified the spiritual demands behind the law. That's the principle I would take and apply as a test here and elsewhere in the gospel for cases like this. If I thought I had found that the Lord actually expected me to pay a lot less tithing than I already had been, I would exercise a lot of caution and consider first if my spiritual sacrifice would be increasing or decreasing. Because if that's going to be decreasing, then I have a problem.

 

...

 

...or, if you don't want to bother with me mixing in my own philosophies and principles with scripture, just read this instead:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-110-121/section-119-the-law-of-tithing?lang=eng

 

Thank you for this contribution to the thread.  The quote really does say it all.

[estradling75]

So what is the difference is a business deducts their cost of gasoline to opperate, and if I were to deduct my gas that I had to spend to get to work?  Its the same thing.

 

You are not a business and the Lord is not the IRS....  As many have stated its a very easy road to go down and claim no increase at all.

 

Still in the end it is you standing before the Lord explaining your actions...  Do as you will, you don't need our permission or approval

[Chilltothebone]

I have heard people who very seriously contend that, since they spend all the money they earn and don't save any, therefore they don't have any income and should not be expected to pay any tithing. I know that I should have more patience with such people, but I confess I tend not to.

When you are at tithing settlement they do not ask you if you pay 10% of your annual income to tithing... they ask if you are a full tithe payer.... Now you have to ask yourself why??  Ill tell you why, because its between the lord and yourself.  Just because you do it one way does not mean others do it that way or even should.  So you should stop being so self righteous and pretentious. 

[Guest]

Just because you do it one way does not mean others do it that way or even should.  So you should stop being so self righteous and pretentious. 

That was pretty harsh.

 

You asked for opinions and get all huffy because he gave his.  It's not like he's alone in this.  A LOT of people would think negatively on what you're proposing.  That's not going to change.  There are common practices and uncommon practices.  You're choosing an uncommon one.

 

You are correct in stating that there is no "one size fits all".  But I've got to ask -- why did you bring this question to the forum?  Is it that you are trying to justify something that you feel deep down may be the wrong thing?  Did you want approval for your justifications?  You aren't going to get it here nor should you.  There is only one person you need to get that approval from.  And that's the Lord. 

 

If He gave it to you, then fine.  Do it.  Be happy and content that the Lord gave his approval to you.  Feel peace with his witness to you that you are fully justified.

 

If not, justifying it to us is not going to make it right.

[The Folk Prophet]

When you are at tithing settlement they do not ask you if you pay 10% of your annual income to tithing... they ask if you are a full tithe payer.... Now you have to ask yourself why??  Ill tell you why, because its between the lord and yourself.  Just because you do it one way does not mean others do it that way or even should.  So you should stop being so self righteous and pretentious. 

 

 

 

Wow.

[The Folk Prophet]

because its between the lord and yourself.

 

That's right.

 

Good luck.

[Guest]

 

 

Wow.

Not sure what that was about...

[EarlJibbs]

I knew a man who went into tithing settlement who claimed $0.00 to tithing and said he paid a full tithing. You see he ran his own business and after he paid for his business expenses, his house, his food, his car.... he had nothing left. No offense to anyone, but I view this as a joke. The penalties for evading a commandment are far more harsh than taxes. I mean, couldn't you, as a business owner some how claim that your family vacation was paid for by the business? Especially if you saw a "client" or "vendor" on the trip? 

 

Bending words like a lawyer will no more get you to heaven than telling the Lord you are worthy with your fingers crossed. We know the intent of this law. I know, let's see how we can break the law of chastity, but really, by playing off words we won't be breaking it. 

[EarlJibbs]

When you are at tithing settlement they do not ask you if you pay 10% of your annual income to tithing... they ask if you are a full tithe payer.... Now you have to ask yourself why??  Ill tell you why, because its between the lord and yourself.  

Isn't 10% implied by the very word "tithing"? Asking if you tithe 10% is redundant. 

 

tithe

[tīT͟H]

 

NOUN

1. one tenth of annual produce or earnings, formerly taken as a tax for the support of the church and clergy.

VERB

1. pay or give as a tithe:

   "he tithes 10 percent of his income to the church"

[estradling75]

Bending words like a lawyer will no more get you to heaven than telling the Lord you are worthy with your fingers crossed. We know the intent of this law. I know, let's see how we can break the law of chastity, but really, by playing off words we won't be breaking it. 

 

This reminds me of a story I heard (I have no idea if it is really true)... Some LDS College students went to Vegas, got a quickie marriage, had sex, got a annulment of the marriage, and then went home and tried to stay that they obeyed the Law of Chastity.  That did not pass... at all.

 

Which brings us back to the the point.  You can parse the wording of Tithing to justify paying as much or as little (usually little) as you would like.  Push it to hard to pay as little as possible and you will have people call you on it....

[The Folk Prophet]

Not sure what that was about...

 

Why do you need to know what it was about? It wasn't a response to you.

 

That being said, I have a track record of people responding in similar ways to things I say. You state a perfectly reasonable, commonly understood, conservative principle, and you get lambasted as self-righteous, pretentious, judgmental, hateful, etc.

 

Whenever this happens to me, I get all defensive, but also concerned at the potential truth to it -- second guess myself back and forth, etc. But seeing it from an outsider's perspective, it is so obvious who, in the exchange, is actually being self-righteous, pretentious and judgmental.

 

In this particular case, Vort's answer was so NOT self-righteous or pretentious and Chilltothebones' so obviously WAS that it made me laugh. And this is, from my perspective, the typical case. I've said it before, and it's funny to me. The most pretentious are those calling others pretentious. The most self-righteous are those calling others self-righteous. The most judgmental are those calling others judgmental.*

 

Like I said, I'm not sure what you care. But does that explanation satisfy you?

 

* I am fully aware that with this explanation I am perpetuating the irony by calling others self-righteous, pretentious, and/or judgmental. But you asked.

[omegaseamaster75]

Tithing

Definition of Tithing

"The First Presidency has written: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970; see also D&C 119:4)."

 

 

10% of your income, how you decide that is up to you. Some people pay on gross income, some on net. It is between the individual and God. It is no ones business but your own and you shouldn't have to justify how or what you pay to anyone but God.

 

Edited October 14, 2015 by omegaseamaster75

[omegaseamaster75]

Also think about the definition of income:

 

1.The flow of cash or cash-equivalents received from work (wage or salary), capital (interest or profit), or land (rent).

2.Accounting:  An excess of revenue over expenses for an accounting period.  An amount by which total assets increase in an accounting period.

 

Do you like definition one or two?

 

Both are correct.