Looking for personal advice stemming from marriage woes.

[The Folk Prophet]

My opinion on this issue doesn't hold as much weight as another man's opinion, IMO. I'm a woman so stating that I think he should not leave his wife over this issue doesn't carry as much influence as another man stating it. That's what I was trying to say that my opinion doesn't matter.

 

I see your point. Though I don't agree. A woman's opinion on this, perhaps, matters more. But more importantly, principles of truth are principles of truth regardless of who states them. But I understand what you mean.

[Backroads]

My husband's first marriage, as I understand it, was largely sexless. His wife was simply not up for it. This left him very fearful of sex on our marriage to the point it required a bit of counseling. Big deal to men. In that first marriage, my husband was seriously considering medical intervention to negate his desire for the sake of the marriage.

I don't think that is a healthy option for most marriages.

[The Folk Prophet]

Two word solution...I'm telling you all:

 

Plural marriage. 

 

[What's in a name?]

I believe that there are some things in life that we must endure. And each person's trials are different than our own. Our trials in life are for our learning and experience. And some of those trials will be with us all of our life. So, I believe that some things we may never understand in this life. Your thorn may be with you your entire life and you may not understand why while you are in this life. 

 

I'm just at the beginning of my understanding of faith in a different way than I believed before my marriage. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of something. You may understand one or two things about this trial, but to truly have faith, you will not understand or know it completely. 

 

So, perhaps, what you need to learn is to simply endure it well. Learn what it means to live with faith. Learn what it means to truly rely on the Lord and His laws. Learn what it means to continue to love and have charity for others (including your wife, children, neighbor, etc.) even when it seems we are being beaten. Learn about the Lord's compensation for what we have lost. 

Beefche . . . somehow you have been able to see past all of the emotional drivel and understand the core matters I was seeking help on. Not sure how you did that, but for it I thank you.  Even if you have no answers beyond what has been offered, feeling understood by someone, anyone, has meant the world to me this day.  Thank you.  

[Guest]

Two word solution...I'm telling you all:

Plural marriage.

I know, right???

[Guest]

Two word solution...I'm telling you all:

Plural marriage.

I know, right???

[omegaseamaster75]

Chemical castration?

[Guest]

What,

 

Just some friendly advice:  It doesn't pay to come onto a public forum and ask for advice then demand the qualifications or denigrate the judgment of those you asked in the first place -- at least in the manner you just did.  Just have a discussion or ignore.  If you really want me to defend myself I could.  But that really isn't going to help you.  (Yes, I really am trying to help).

 

That said, I believe I can help answer a question you had.  Why?  What are you to learn?  Be prepared to go in a completely different direction.

 

Napoleon Hill's opus "Think and Grow Rich" was amazing, and I've often heard it quoted (directly or indirectly) in General Conference.  One statement that I did not fully understand when I first read it decades ago was

 

           "Sex is the strongest positive emotion."

 

What I've come to realize now after decades of experience since then is that he wasn't talking just about the act alone.  It was sex drive.  When this energy is channeled into positive activities, it can be the most productive power you can tap into.  You have been given this because you have a tremendous potential to do good.  That energy is now locked up because you can't see past the sex.  Learn how to channel energy.  You'll be amazed at what you can accomplish.

 

Who knows if this will help your marriage.  But it answers the questions you asked.  It's free advice.  Take it or leave it.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Guest

[Jane_Doe]

What's in a Name,

 

Hi, I don't have much in the way of advice... I sincerely wish I had a silver bullet for your problems, but I don't... and honestly I question if one exists.... 

 

I'm writing you this as a person who's have BPD, been sexually assaulted, had all sorts of issues related to intimacy, and have a huge libido that sometimes goes unfilled (yes, that does happen to women too).  These issues can be daunting- life controlling... but they can also be healed.  "Healing" doesn't mean the scars vanish, but that they become scars in the background, not the dictators of our daily activities.  

 

I liked much of your posts, including your introspective can't see the forest because you can only see the trees.   I remember that point: the pain when you don't know why things are, can't see a way out, hurt so badly-- just wanting it to be over or at least to know WHY it is you're here.  For me, the urge to know why or to rush the journey became maddening-- a self-destructive obsession.  I kept trying to rush it: to force a seed to grow on my timetable.  I didn't know how to sit and be still: how to trust in the Lord when I didn't know what the course was- what the seed would become or when.  That not knowing, that blind trust-- to not know why or how long, that was so much harder for me.  Finally, the seed did bloom, and I beheld a beautiful flower that was me- a beauty I had no idea existed and growth I cannot express.

 

I cannot tell you of a silver bullet, but do send my sympathies, prayers, and hugs.  Hang in there, trust in the Lord: He knows what's going on.

[estradling75]

I've heard/seen guys say that, but I think in this case you're thinking less of most women than what is true.

 

 

I am basing it off what I see here in the forums when we discuss the various issues.  Not based on what happens behind closed doors (which I can not know)

[What's in a name?]

I have tons. I grew up Catholic (divorce is a sin) in the Philippines (divorce is illegal). The Filipino Family culture is forged on the ideals of Christian Love - the love Jesus displayed on the cross that compelled him to plead with God to forgive them as they crucified him.

Unrequited Love has no meaning in this paradigm because the requital is the pleasure derived from one's ability to act. The power that drives that ability is one's love for God. The opportunity to execute God's love for one's spouse while giving her the freedom to exercise her own agency is therefore, the source of one's joy.

So, saying, I did this for her, I did that for her... That should have been your source of joy. Instead, your source of joy is the requital that you expected that didn't come... So you're unhappy. You don't love her the way Christ loves her.

Love is one's desire, with all of one's being, to bring someone closer to Christ. The ultimate expression for which is sex under the marital covenant. When she has no desire to engage in that expression, being disappointed because you didn't get to express your love for her in that manner is an appropriate "spiritual man's" response. Being disappointed because you didn't receive pleasure is a "natural man's" response. To sustain your love to endure, you need to concentrate more on the spiritual man... There are many other ways to express your love for your spouse other than sex. Finding joy in all these other expressions of love (bringing your spouse closer to Christ) is the key to your happiness in your marriage while you work out the problem with sex.

Last Christmas, did it make you happy to give someone a gift? Giving your spouse the freedom to be who she is, taking the journey through the strait and narrow path in her own pace - even taking many steps backwards before finding the step forward - and still be loved completely by her spouse is a gift beyond measure. For you to be able to give that gift to your wife will give you happiness beyond any Christmas gift you've ever given. So the next time you look at her face, find joy in that moment knowing that on the next second, you're about to do something that will bring a sparkle to those eyes... start with a smile. Find joy in every little thing you do that displays Christ's love for her... Forget what she does or doesn't do.

I’m sorry Anatess, but a lot of that is a bit too ethereal for me to grasp. I’m highly metaphorical in my thoughts, but much of what you wrote escapes me.  Not sure why I’m missing it so badly. Perhaps I'm resistant to how some reads more like a romance novel than reality.

 

I am not without understanding of the points you make.  I am without understanding how to make that an integral part of who I am, and not have to consciously choose to turn the other cheek and respond in love in each challenge I face.    I don’t think you appreciate the difficulty of the circumstances I find myself in. 

 

I don’t love the way Christ loved, as I’m nothing like Him.  That’s a given that goes without having to state it.  I wouldn’t be in this melt-down had I a tiny fraction of His internal sense of well-being that allowed me to be secure and giving despite any external factors, or lack thereof.  As a far, FAR weaker spirit, I still seek my own desires of love and belonging.  Do you, or do you not, have experience in how to develop the capability to sustain unilateral giving in the face of famine and abuse? 

 

You evidently presume the love and concern I give to my wife is solely out of expectation of return. That is false.   

 

You are speaking of Charity, even though the word is not used.  I will not contend that I am “nothing” in that I have not true charity.  It’s a goal, and something I have thought of much.  When single, I did seek that gift.  And I have wondered if that is part of why I find myself in the circumstances I do – akin to the joke about praying for patience.  Perhaps I’m wrong, but I have been unable to conclude that charity is something that one develops or chooses.  I see that we can develop similar characteristics, emulate the behaviors, but it remains my conclusion that true charity is truly a gift as Moroni describes.  It is not from within ourselves, it is bestowed upon us.  Now, what I don’t understand, and have not found reading material on, is whether the bestowal of the gift is via a set of circumstances, and line upon line, or if it is more of a mighty change of heart.   

[What's in a name?]

I remember that point: the pain when you don't know why things are, can't see a way out, hurt so badly-- just wanting it to be over or at least to know WHY it is you're here.  For me, the urge to know why or to rush the journey became maddening-- a self-destructive obsession.  I kept trying to rush it: to force a seed to grow on my timetable.  I didn't know how to sit and be still: how to trust in the Lord when I didn't know what the course was- what the seed would become or when.  That not knowing, that blind trust-- to not know why or how long, that was so much harder for me.  Finally, the seed did bloom, and I beheld a beautiful flower that was me- a beauty I had no idea existed and growth I cannot express.

Thank you for the reminder, and the generous thoughts.  I really have grown rather impatient. Esp as of late.  Started to think that a couple years of asking and waiting was "more than enough". Didn't do that consciously, but obviously I have done so. Not a constructive thought process, as you eloquently illustrated.  

[Latter-Day Marriage]

I haven't been able to read all the replies, so keep that in mind.

BPD can be a real hardship and normal rules don't always apply.  I have a daughter who has BPD, but not to the same degree as you wife by the sounds of it.  This might not work for your wife, but for my daughter she finds taking a very intense vitamin/mineral supplement called Empower Plus helps her a great deal.  If your wife wants to try that you can get them at http://www.truehope.com/.  I have no financial stake in their business, I'm just the father of a happy customer.  At least check the information they have there.  At the very least she should get a diagnosis and some kind of treatment if called for.

As for you, this may not be about you needing to learn something, it may be about others needing you to set an example for them or to lead them to a better life or help them in some other way, it may be about enduring a test of your faith.  In the end 'why am I here' isn't as important as 'what should I be doing now to get where I want to be'.  You can't blame a loss of faith on your trials, when you have a trial you can choose to draw closer to God or to pull away, but the choice is yours.  YOu may see leaving and living alone as easier, but easier doesn't mean it is right.

This may be over simplifying things, but either you just put up with things as they are, or you work to make it better.  Do you believe it is possible with God's help to move from where you are to a point where you have a much happier marriage?  I hope so because that is true.  If you are not getting answers to your prayers, you may be asking the wrong question.  Check your assumptions.  Have you perhaps received an answer but rejected it as unrealistic or something?  You can pray to ask what you should pray for.

Does she understand that her behaviour is resulting in distress for you, that you have legitimate needs that are going unmet?  Does she realize this puts her marriage at risk?  Does she believe that it is possible to reach a point where the two of you to have a mutually happy and satisfying marriage with each other?  Is she willing to work toward achieving that?  If not then help her understand those things, but do it in a loving way without blaming or making accusations or threats.  Build her faith that if you both are willing to work at it that you can have a marriage like that.

Do you know what it is she see herself gaining from her current behaviour?  What makes it worth it to her to act this way?  You could try asking her the next day something like 'Yesterday when you refused me, if you had not refused I feel it could have been a wonderful bonding experience but instead it left me feeling hurt and rejected.  What was the benefit to you in refusing, I want to understand.'  She may have reasons you are oblivious to.  It may just be a lack of awareness about the consequences of her actions.

My situation was not the same as yours but I do relate to your pain.  What helped us most was we got the book "And they were not Ashamed" by Laura Brotherson.  We set aside one evening a week and read it together, talked about what we read, and did the exercises in it.  It opened her eyes to the fact that I was seeking to fulfill legitimate need and it was a righteous desire.  She still doesn't desire having sex as often as I do, but she understands me better and takes my needs and feelings into account.  She now understands that if she makes the decision to engage sexually that arousal will follow so not feeling sexual desire at the time I ask is no longer a show stopper.

You might find something useful at my blog as well (I hope so at least).  http://latterday-marriage.blogspot.com

[classylady]

I believe most women are not aware of how important sex is to their husbands.  Many men will say it is a physical need.  For some women, they can do without it and not feel deprived.

 

Libido can be influenced by many factors for women.  There may be a physical problem such as hormone levels not being where they should.  There may be psychological issues such as poor body image, a poor prior relationship, etc.  She may have relationship issues with her spouse.  From "Focus on the Family": "For many women, emotional closeness is an essential prelude to sexual intimacy. So problems in your relationship can be a major factor in low sex drive. Decreased interest in sex is often a result of ongoing issues, such as:

• Lack of connection with her partner
• Unresolved conflicts or fights
• Poor communication of sexual needs and preferences
• Infidelity and Breach of trust"

I don't know what the issues are with your wife.  Has she been to a doctor to rule out hormone problems, or any other physical issues?  Does she need counseling of some sort to help with psychological issues?  Can the two of you discuss your issues without feelings of being attacked by the other?

 

For men, when looking for a potential spouse with a high libido, (high testosterone levels), maybe they need to look for women who have hair on their face and chest, and a low voice.  

[Latter-Day Marriage]

For men, when looking for a potential spouse with a high libido, (high testosterone levels), maybe they need to look for women who have hair on their face and chest, and a low voice.  

 

I wife doesn't have to have a libido that matches her husband's for them to have a mutually fulfilling sexual relationship.  She can willingly and happily give herself to her husband for his sake.  Not as 'duty sex' but as a loving service to her husband.  If she does that, and he gives her time and attention and [snip] ...she is glad she did it, it will make her happy to do the same again.

The catch is that to do that a woman needs to understand that her husband's sexual desires are a very real and powerful and legitimate need for him, not some kind of selfish, lustful character flaw he should be working on getting rid of.  She needs to understand the power he derives from sexual satisfaction and the pain he feels from sexual rejection and embrace her role in his life as his lover rather than resent having to spend time and effort on sex. 

 

Most women don't get this on their own, they need to learn it.  Me telling my wife those things didn't help much since she discounted my words (and any other male expert's words) as having a selfish ulterior motive.  She discounted anything from a non-LDS expert as being the way of the world.  Brotherson's book really opened her eyes, there was a faithful LDS woman validating all the things I told her in a very convincing way.  It's made a big difference here, even to the point of increasing her libido.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Eowyn
too far

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I wife doesn't have to have a libido that matches her husband's for them to have a mutually fulfilling sexual relationship.  She can willingly and happily give herself to her husband for his sake.  Not as 'duty sex' but as a loving service to her husband.  If she does that, and he gives her time and attention and affection in foreplay she'll get aroused and feel that desire.[snip]

The catch is that to do that a woman needs to understand that her husband's sexual desires are a very real and powerful and legitimate need for him, not some kind of selfish, lustful character flaw he should be working on getting rid of.  She needs to understand the power he derives from sexual satisfaction and the pain he feels from sexual rejection and embrace her role in his life as his lover rather than resent having to spend time and effort on sex. 

 

Most women don't get this on their own, they need to learn it.  Me telling my wife those things didn't help much since she discounted my words (and any other male expert's words) as having a selfish ulterior motive.  She discounted anything from a non-LDS expert as being the way of the world.  Brotherson's book really opened her eyes, there was a faithful LDS woman validating all the things I told her in a very convincing way.  It's made a big difference here, even to the point of increasing her libido.

 

Back in the day, Hitler's book, Mein Kamph was given to newlyweds, I think Brotherson's book would be a much better choice.   :)   Seriously though, we need to educate ourselves, and then teach our daughters.  My husband and I were fortunate to have read The Act of Marriage by Tim and Beverly LaHaye before we got married.  The LaHaye's are not LDS, but they are Christian.  Their book teaches the same idea.  I think I'll give both books as wedding gifts to all newlyweds in the future.   :)

Edited January 18, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest]

 

You evidently presume the love and concern I give to my wife is solely out of expectation of return. That is false.   

 

To make things simple, I'm just going to address this line.

 

This is not what I said.  I don't doubt that you love your wife regardless of what you receive in return.

 

What I said was that your happiness/satisfaction is based on what your wife does for you rather than what you do for her.  So much so that when you don't receive what you expected to receive, you're  not happy anymore.  Your happiness needs to be based on your ability to love your wife.  So, because you love your wife regardless of return, your happiness should be shining right now - with your issues just things you want to improve on.

 

The best real world example I can give for this is Christmas.  When you give a gift - does the fact that you have given something make your Christmas a happy Christmas?  Or is it the fact that you received something make your Christmas a happy Christmas?  Would Christmas still be happy if you gave something but didn't receive something?  Would it be unhappy if you haven't given something but received something?

 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

You need to find joy in your ability to express love for your wife rather than your wife's ability to express love for you.

 

How this translates to real life... my grandfather died in World War II - my mother was only 3 years old.  My grandmother found joy in her ability to love her husband even when he has passed.  She didn't get remarried because she wants to meet my grandfather after she's passed on as his wife - and not as somebody else's wife.  So, her joy is completely dependent on her ability to love her husband and none whatsoever on her husband loving her.  She lived a very happy and full life - celibate since World War II.

 

Here's another example... my grandmother's brother dedicated his life to supporting my grandmother.  Philippines, after World War II, was destitute.  There are only a few jobs so women were passed over for jobs so that men can have jobs to support their families.  My grandmother didn't have a husband to support her so her brother stepped into that role.  He did not marry.  Rather, he raised my mother and her siblings.  So his joy is completely dependent on his ability to express love for his sister and his nieces and nephews and none whatsoever on his being loved in return.  He remained celibate his entire life.  He lived a happy life and died at 97 years old.

 

Here's another example... I have IED - a psychological disorder that causes my anger response to not match the existing stimuli.  It's a challenge in my marriage.  My husband finds happiness in helping me deal with it... so that, I have thrown plates at him when I'm in one of my rages and it has not caused him to be insecure in the marriage.  Nobody would blame him if he would wash his hands of this marriage and find an easier wife to deal with - a wife that doesn't abuse him.  But he loves me.  So he helps me.  And that makes him happy.  And that, in turn, causes me to work harder to find solutions to the problem because he's not giving up, so I can't give up either.

Edited January 18, 2016 by anatess

[Guest]

Folks, let's remember that there are stricter guidelines for this sort of conversation than there used to be. Please keep it rated PG. 

[What's in a name?]

Now Eowyn . . . my parental guidance to my kids is far more explicit than anyone has brought up on this topic so far.  Who's PG rating are we using?  

 

I have this little analogy that has bounced around in my head for a decade or so that helps me frame, and express, the mental anguish I go though at times.  Perhaps it's silly to others, but it is meaningful to me.

 

You know how when you play in the snow without gloves (or sometimes even with gloves that get wet), when your fingers start to get cold and they hurt?  But after a while, your fingers become numb, and you can tolerate making and throwing a couple more snowballs with little breaks between to keep the frostbite at bay.  But then . . . when you start to warm your hands back up . . . owww!  It hurts to thaw out!  You are ok being warm, and you are sort of ok when numb, but that transition period from one state to the other is a bugger.  

 

That's what the mental anguish is like to go from warm and well, to being cold and alone. There is a period of time there when the pain is almost unbearable. But finally it becomes numb.  Thankfully, I've become pretty much numb lately.  I don't look forward to trying to rewarm. That hurts too.  I'd rather remain numb the rest of my life, thank you, and not go through the freeze/thaw cycle any more.  I've been through it too many times, and have no interest in more of the same pain. 

 

The exercise of posting here and receiving feedback has been a fruitful one.  I'm not sure I've actually learned anything new, but I do believe I understand some things on deeper levels, and with greater clarity.  Having become numb, I'm also not so myopically focused on the tree trunk right in front of me, but can step to the side and see more of the forest.  

 

My internal responses to some posts were an unexpected surprise to me.  I used to participate in forums. I used to have friends online and offline. I used to be recognized as a leader in one of my hobbies.  All of that changed about 4.5 years ago, shortly after remarrying.  I was cut off from those sources that used to fill my bucket, at least some.  I thought I was ok, self-sufficient enough, and honestly am not one that needs much if any recognition.  But, with those sources of fulfillment forcefully cut off, and then the cessation of the primary way I felt accepted and loved in marriage, my bucket ran dry.  It had been dry for some time now. It took a few drops of compassion and caring from posters to wet the bucket bottom for me to clearly see how parched and dry it was. 

 

I'm in the process of making sure to put my oxygen mask back on before continuing to help others get theirs on.  

 

Ladies, it isn't the act itself, or the pleasure derived that is nearly so important to the stereotypical man than it is about feeling loved.  It's just that many men (esp worldly men) don't comprehend it is all rooted in attempts to find meaning and love.  I'm sure those versed in reading have heard complaints of unwillingness, or begrudged giving making it bad. The "just lie there" or "get it over with" dilemma.  For this man, it is the act of giving herself to me, willingly, wanting to give to me (even if not wanting the act) that tells me in no uncertain terms that I and my feelings are important to her. That I am wanted, valued, and she cares about my happiness.  The withdrawal of that love (or worse - demeaning because of the desire to feel love that way), combined with physical drives, can really cause extreme mental anguish. Just like you want (need) your SO to give compliments and show appreciation out of genuine concern and love for you, he wants (needs) you to give yourself to him.  You don't have to want it. You don't have to pretend anything. You simply have to be totally sincere that you want him happy and feeling loved.  If you don't fill his bucket that way, don't be too surprised when he tries finding surrogate feelings of worth through power, control, or other ways the typically emotionally unaware male flails about to find some feeling of value.