For NeverTrumpers: An appeal to not vote Hillary over Trump

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The cases have shown that the election overall was correct in how it ended and who the winner was.

This is simply false. "The cases" have shown no such thing. If they have, I invite you to demonstrate such. There were many irregularities in the 2020 vote, and the Democrats actively suppressed investigation until the audit trail was too cold to follow.

We follow the reported results not because they have been demonstrated to be accurate, but because the alternative is the end of our republic. The Democrats are much better at cheating, lying, and corruption than the Republicans.  It's not because many Republicans wouldn't do so if they could; it's because the Democrats have many generations of experience. To think that had no bearing at all on the election returns is, at best, naive.

Whether or not it changed the outcome is a different matter. Did Biden actually, truly win the majority of votes in the electoral college? We will never know the answer. But don't pretend that some reliable third party has validated the 2020 election results.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you gonna lucifer it up, do it in style baby.

Yeah, anyone who builds a building that large must be in league with the Devil.

[Just_A_Guy]

52 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is simply false. "The cases" have shown no such thing. If they have, I invite you to demonstrate such. There were many irregularities in the 2020 vote, and the Democrats actively suppressed investigation until the audit trail was too cold to follow.

We follow the reported results not because they have been demonstrated to be accurate, but because the alternative is the end of our republic. The Democrats are much better at cheating, lying, and corruption than the Republicans.  It's not because many Republicans wouldn't do so if they could; it's because the Democrats have many generations of experience. To think that had no bearing at all on the election returns is, at best, naive.

Whether or not it changed the outcome is a different matter. Did Biden actually, truly win the majority of votes in the electoral college? We will never know the answer. But don't pretend that some reliable third party has validated the 2020 election results.

In a non-nationalized election regimen (ie, individual states set up their own procedures) there’s always going to be some tomfoolery somewhere, which in our day and age will provide useful video clips that will tend to affirm someone’s desire to believe that the whole shebang was rigged.

I haven’t done an exhaustive study of all the alleged 2020 fraud.  I did look at 2 or 3 of the allegedly most obvious cases (as alleged by Trump, Powell, & Co) and remember coming away with the impression that the claims being made about them were overblown.  I recognize the leftist march through our institutions (including the judiciary) over the past decades, but have not seen a 2020 election case where it seemed clear that the court reached the wrong result.  (I agree that the current criminal charges, by contrast, are as dodgy as heck; there were probably some technical violations—with RICO, pretty much ANYTHING is a technical violation—but I think the real crime being charged is effectually “Presidenting While Republican”.)

This is an over-simplification, but . . . Trump was consistently trailing in the 2020 polls.  We all knew it.  We all consoled ourselves with the idea that the polling was off; that a red wave would materialize on Election Day in just the right combination of states so as to give Republicans a victory in the electoral college.  That wave *sort of* materialized—the final RCP poll average (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2020/national/) had the popular vote at 51.8% Biden versus 43.4% Trump; and when all the votes were counted nationwide it was actually 51.3%/46.8%.  But the simple fact is that all along, the GOP’s only hope of victory was a series of coordinated lightning strikes in just the right places; and that simply didn’t happen.

At the end of the day:  as a party, we nominated a bad guy; and everyone knew he was a bad guy; and most of the self-proclaimed moral consciences of the nation on the Christian Right were openly reveling in the fact that they had a bad guy who would fight their battles for them—and the country had just plain had enough of it all.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[Grunt]

It's sad to watch people defend the 2020 election.  That year really changed the way we hold elections.  You can argue whether it was by design or not, but non-traditional voting was through the roof.   You can also argue whether or not this is a good thing, but I don't see how you can argue that it doesn't open the door to wide-spread fraud and ballot harvesting.   There would be little way to tell if this happened or not.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Grunt

[NeuroTypical]

50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, anyone who builds a building that large must be in league with the Devil.

I'm only 2% serious there.  It's also true that our temples are made of fine and expensive materials.  But I figure there's a big difference between a literal gold-plated monument to the ego of a single individual, and a building built through sacrifice and donations to build up the Kingdom of God.    

If the First Presidency ever has a mega-plush opulent suite at the top of our temples, then we'll talk.    

[laronius]

2020 was just a crazy year because of COVID. Nothing was normal so it's hard to know what really happened. I think in a normal year Biden would not have been elected. But with people largely stuck in their homes for 6 months leading up to the election and many watching the mainstream media around the clock it's hard to know what exactly people were thinking. On the one hand I would not be surprised if election fraud changed the outcome. But on the other my opinion of the general public is such nowadays that it wouldn't surprise me if anyone got elected in a fair election. Though I will say that while prophecy does not specifically address the presidential election I think it's obvious where things are headed and so I try to not get too aggravated by it all. 

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm only 2% serious there. 

Yes, I realized that.  I figured I'd add fuel to the fire.

[LDSGator]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

haven’t done an exhaustive study of all the alleged 2020 fraud.

If republicans keep harping on this, they will lose in 2024. It appeals to the hardcore base and absolutely no one else. 
 

I want to vote for anyone but Biden but beating this dead horse makes me cringe. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-greeted-loud-boos-south-carolina-football-game-1846920
 

When Trump is booed in South Carolina you know that’s an issue. 

[prisonchaplain]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:40 PM, LDSGator said:

I want to vote for anyone but Biden but beating this dead horse makes me cringe. 

I feel the same way about Trump--and I'm moderately conservative. The majority of Americans agree with us. And yet, here we are. 🤷‍♀️

[LDSGator]

27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I feel the same way about Trump--and I'm moderately conservative. The majority of Americans agree with us. And yet, here we are. 🤷‍♀️

Understand totally. I’m in your boat as well. 

[prisonchaplain]

A possible answer: 

[LDSGator]

37 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

A possible answer: 

Even though I hate myself for it I’ll probably just vote for the Libertarian and throw my vote away. 

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-greeted-loud-boos-south-carolina-football-game-1846920
 

When Trump is booed in South Carolina you know that’s an issue. 

This is the propaganda headlines that drive me batty.  I'm not a huge fan of Trump, but a small group of protestors OUTSIDE the venue that likely showed up from who-knows-where to specifically  boo Trump doesn't mean "that's an issue".  Did you see the clips where the stadium erupted in cheers when he walked onto the field?  Nah.  People wouldn't want to report that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqy2U6Xk4Rg

I won't vote for him in the primary, but I will without regret if he wins the nomination.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Grunt

[prisonchaplain]

48 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Even though I hate myself for it I’ll probably just vote for the Libertarian and throw my vote away. 

Can't go there. My struggle with Libertarianism is that it's rooted in atheism (Ayn Rand was a militant one). Communists argue that the collective has godly wisdom, so God's not needed. Libertarianism (Objectivism actually) argues that the individual should be selfish in his/her pursuit of talents, and that if everyone would do so all would be well--so God is not needed. 

[prisonchaplain]

5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Did you see the clips where the stadium erupted in cheers when he [Trump] walked onto the field?  Nah.  People wouldn't want to report that.

Media's bias against Trump is the biggest non-secret there is. Their own telling is that media built him up and he became a monster that they could not stop or tame.

[LDSGator]

24 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Can't go there. My struggle with Libertarianism is that it's rooted in atheism

It’s not always rooted in atheism. In fact, I’m part of several Christian Libertarian groups.

Edited November 26, 2023 by LDSGator

[prisonchaplain]

11 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It’s not always rooted in atheism. In fact, I’m part of several Christian Libertarian groups.

I believe Doug Bandow is a well-known Evangelical Libertarian. Still, if it ends up being Trump/Biden and No Labels puts forth a candidate (I really like Manchin, for example) I'll probably support them. Otherwise, I have to discern just how afraid of Trump I am. I doubt he's pro-Israel and know he's not pro-Ukraine. Also, without the taming Christian support, I fear that he is a true narcist. 

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

I believe Doug Bandow is a well-known Evangelical Libertarian. Still, if it ends up being Trump/Biden and No Labels puts forth a candidate (I really like Manchin, for example) I'll probably support them. Otherwise, I have to discern just how afraid of Trump I am. I doubt he's pro-Israel and know he's not pro-Ukraine. Also, without the taming Christian support, I fear that he is a true narcist. 

Understand totally. 

[Grunt]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Media's bias against Trump is the biggest non-secret there is. Their own telling is that media built him up and he became a monster that they could not stop or tame.

Sure, and others.  That doesn't mean we should continue to share it.   There is SO much to criticize Trump for we don't need to push a false narrative.   That said, I can't imagine 4 years under Trump would be worse than another 4 under Biden, or whoever takes over after he's elected.

[JohnsonJones]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:28 PM, Vort said:

This is simply false. "The cases" have shown no such thing. If they have, I invite you to demonstrate such. There were many irregularities in the 2020 vote, and the Democrats actively suppressed investigation until the audit trail was too cold to follow.

We follow the reported results not because they have been demonstrated to be accurate, but because the alternative is the end of our republic. The Democrats are much better at cheating, lying, and corruption than the Republicans.  It's not because many Republicans wouldn't do so if they could; it's because the Democrats have many generations of experience. To think that had no bearing at all on the election returns is, at best, naive.

Whether or not it changed the outcome is a different matter. Did Biden actually, truly win the majority of votes in the electoral college? We will never know the answer. But don't pretend that some reliable third party has validated the 2020 election results.

For starters

Fox News settles with Dominion...owes 3/4 of a Billion dollars

Oh...wait...you guys get all your news from Fox...or worse...don't you?

It's official, Election was secure

But law, order, and those who pursue legal and justifiable measures to ensure secure and free elections don't matter to Trumpers...now do they (which is why Trump tried to scam Georgia's officials and force them to do things they shouldn't do...or so it REALLY appears...which is why he is ON TRIAL about it...IF he proven guilty).

Exhaustive Fact Check finds little evidence of voter fraud, but Trump insists it did with absolutely NO evidence

So far, the articles are from AP, Brennan Center, and PBS...

Ironically Trump's own government at the time put out a statement about the security of the election

joint statement elections most secure ever

From Cisa.gov

NOW...on the otherhand, is there ANY VALID and CREDIBLE evidence you have to insist that the election was rigged and ANY evidence that actually has held up in court that shows that Donald Trump won the election?  Evidence that SHOWS Trump won the election that isn't put out by those Gadiantons and Amalakiahites that want to overthrown our government (Like Trump asked Pence to do...luckily for us Pence actually cares about the Constitution and our government).

NOT the fake stuff all the flat-earther's and others use...REAL actual evidence that is upheld in court and has proven that the election was won by Donald Trump?  (and if you do post evidence, please make sure it is CREDIBLE...in otherwords, none of that conspiracy stuff from the Flat Earthers and such...I don't consider that type of stuff credible).

Even Europe and Euronews reported back then about the election

presidential election most seucre in us history say security officials in direct rebuke to Trump - From Euronews

Trump has lost several many cases refuting his claims of winning the election due to fraud...

Reuters reports on it here

courst have dismissed multiple lawsuits of alleged electoral fraud presented by Trump Campaign

Quote

Following President Joe Biden’s swearing in on Jan. 20, a Facebook post shared over 6,140 times has said: “Not one court has looked at the evidence and said that Biden legally won. Not one”. This is false: state and federal judges dismissed more than 50 lawsuits presented by then President Donald Trump and his allies challenging the election or its outcome.

------------------------------

As reported by Reuters   here  , state and federal judges - some appointed by Trump - dismissed more than 50 lawsuits brought by Trump or his allies alleging election fraud and other irregularities.

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On Nov 27, 2020 a federal appeals court rejected a Trump campaign proposal to block Biden from being declared the winner of Pennsylvania. ( here ). At the time, Stephanos Bibas, on behalf of the three-judge panel wrote: “Free, fair elections are the lifeblood of our democracy. Charges of unfairness are serious. But calling an election unfair does not make it so." It added: “Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here."

 

------

Edited November 27, 2023 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

11 hours ago, Grunt said:

Sure, and others.  That doesn't mean we should continue to share it.   There is SO much to criticize Trump for we don't need to push a false narrative.   That said, I can't imagine 4 years under Trump would be worse than another 4 under Biden, or whoever takes over after he's elected.

Project 2025 has me somewhat worried.  Trump's apparent ideas to go after people and to cleanse the Federal service has me worried (as it sounds a LOT like what Hitler was proposing before he got into power...and it's exactly what he did).

HOWEVER...my big reason NOT to vote Trump actually isn't dealing with that stuff currently, as that is something that MAY happen in the future (not an absolute or exact thing)

I do agree there is much to criticize Trump about already. 

Mine, as I think I expressed on these forums recently, is that Trump is not a moral person.  I feel we should at least strive to vote for those who are moral to be the ones who hold the reins of government.  I think I was clear on who I felt was one of the more moral individuals running (as well as saying appearances can be deceiving...BUT to all appearances currently they seem to be a moral person).  It is better to have someone moral to be in power, even if you may not agree with everything they say or do, than to have someone immoral rule over you, even if they seem to say what you want them to say.

In my opinion...of course. 

[Grunt]

41 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

Mine, as I think I expressed on these forums recently, is that Trump is not a moral person.  I feel we should at least strive to vote for those who are moral to be the ones who hold the reins of government. 

That's probably my largest issue with most politicians.   However, if I draw a very hard line around this criteria I believe I'll rarely get a chance to vote OR be forced to vote for someone I believe won't be able to do the job.

[LDSGator]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Mine, as I think I expressed on these forums recently, is that Trump is not a moral person.  I feel we should at least strive to vote for those who are moral to be the ones who hold the reins of government.

I agree with both you and @Grunt that we should try to vote for moral people. But I’m realistic. No one is perfect, even my political heroes who I agree with 95% of the time (Ron Paul, Barry Goldwater for me) are flawed men. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

I’m a late stage Gen X/very early millennial. So I remember the Clinton years very well. One of my key issues with Trump is how his zealots view him and how they viewed Slick Willie. The right hated Clinton for his womanizing and were appalled by it. I’d argue that W even won because he the right trusted him with White House interns. 
 

Now, because they agree with Trump, suddenly the moral character of presidents isn’t that important. Oh, they’ll give lip service to it being important. But it no longer matters that much. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by LDSGator